SWTOR: Dying or Prosperous?

[Serenator]

The storyline stuff only lasts so far. I finished the class story on my main, an Imperial Agent, at level 47 and a half. Hearing what people said about the lack of things to do at 50, I stopped levelling and rolled a couple of alts... then the linearity of the levelling experience really hit me, each class may have its own story which provides some variety but it all takes place in the same areas in the same order...

 

And of course by the time you're hearing the side quests for the 3rd time you just want the stupid npcs to shutup already and give you the quests! spacebar, spacebar, spacebar.

 

For variety I rolled a Republic trooper and at last had a whole new set of stuff to look at, but wait a sec... I can't post from my Empire characters to my Republic character? I don't want to level a character that is 'cut off' from my others so that's a no-no too.

 

Once you get beyond the starter areas, getting groups is a chore, so it basically plays like a solo game. Fun for a while but it hasn't got staying power. My mind is now pretty made up not to continue beyond the included 30 days.

[senshi]

All I know is this is the game for me. I was pretty sure I was completely done with the mmo genre a couple of years ago. I decided I was going to give this one a go as I had been following it for so long and it has lit the spark in me again.

[Sech]

The storyline stuff only lasts so far. I finished the class story on my main, an Imperial Agent, at level 47 and a half. Hearing what people said about the lack of things to do at 50, I stopped levelling and rolled a couple of alts... then the linearity of the levelling experience really hit me, each class may have its own story which provides some variety but it all takes place in the same areas in the same order...

 

And of course by the time you're hearing the side quests for the 3rd time you just want the stupid npcs to shutup already and give you the quests! spacebar, spacebar, spacebar.

 

For variety I rolled a Republic trooper and at last had a whole new set of stuff to look at, but wait a sec... I can't post from my Empire characters to my Republic character? I don't want to level a character that is 'cut off' from my others so that's a no-no too.

 

Once you get beyond the starter areas, getting groups is a chore, so it basically plays like a solo game. Fun for a while but it hasn't got staying power. My mind is now pretty made up not to continue beyond the included 30 days.

 

This.

Exactly what I've been saying.

This is why the game is going to fail.

 

Oh what's that?

No end-game. End-game is too easy.

Nothing to do.

No time sinks.

Too casual.

 

Failure.

The casual gaming craze claims another life.

 

I just hope BW realizes this and releases real raid content and fixes the PvP system.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Sech

[Drallbait]

This.

BTW time sinks haven't been avoidable in SWTOR at all.

BW just wasn't smart enough to put any in.

That's why it's super easy to get all your affection up with companion, leveling crew skills takes 1 day of work and some credits.

HUNDREDS of people on my server, if not 1000+ are 50 have full crew skills, have full affection, have full pvp sets, have full raid sets, and are bored.

 

Ya, sure, BW didn't put time sinks in, but now everyone is done has all the same gear and is bored.

 

So ya...that worked out....

 

The point is, epics used to mean something....now they are basically standard...

 

MMOs have to appeal to a broad class of players with vastly different skills, time to play and resources. SWTOR took the approach that the baseline should be more casual players because that is what their brand of Cinematic RPG mainly appeals to. They probably won't match WoW, but that is a pretty hard thing to do. WoW is one of the best games ever made. It lasted me longer than any game before, and set a standard for mainstream MMOs that will be hard to match.

 

BUT SWTOR to me is on the right track. Make the game fun, make it more about the story and the journey, and less about looking up your spec on Wowhead and grinding mats and gear for 100s of hours so you can spend 100s of hours raiding.

 

More and harder content will come. I hope they follow my suggestion from almost two years ago and make the content truly "Episodic" (ala how Star Wars movies are named). I'd like to see smaller chunks of content every couple months that directly tie in with an overall World Storyline. I think they have a whole bunch of content in the pipe that they withheld from release on purpose (and probably wasn't quite ready either) to give them a runway once the game shipped.

 

I could care less that Epics are not a big deal. I was walking around my server with full MC Priest gear before the vast majority of people on my server after WoW shipped and it was just an embarrassment to me most of the time. I wasn't really better than anyone, except maybe I learn to heal in raids pretty well. All it really meant is I played that game way too much...Now I'm cured of that addiction, but I want a game that will be fun, and that will still be out when I get around to playing more. I think SWTOR will be that game...

Edited January 12, 2012 by Drallbait

[Sech]

MMOs have to appeal to a broad class of players with vastly different skills, time to play and resources. SWTOR took the approach that the baseline should be more casual players because that is what their brand of Cinematic RPG mainly appeals to. They probably won't match WoW, but that is a pretty hard thing to do. WoW is one of the best games ever made. It lasted me longer than any game before, and set a standard for mainstream MMOs that will be hard to match.

 

BUT SWTOR to me is on the right track. Make the game fun, make it more about the story and the journey, and less about looking up your spec on Wowhead and grinding mats and gear for 100s of hours so you can spend 100s of hours raiding.

 

More and harder content will come. I hope they follow my suggestion from almost two years ago and make the content truly "Episodic" (ala how Star Wars movies are named). I'd like to see smaller chunks of content every couple months that directly tie in with an overall World Storyline. I think they have a whole bunch of content in the pipe that they withheld from release on purpose (and probably wasn't quite ready either) to give them a runway once the game shipped.

 

I could care less that Epics are not a big deal. I was walking around my server with full MC Priest gear before the vast majority of people on my server after WoW shipped and it was just an embarrassment to me most of the time. I wasn't really better than anyone, except maybe I learn to heal in raids pretty well. All it really meant is I played that game way too much...Now I'm cured of that addiction, but I want a game that will be fun, and that will still be out when I get around to playing more. I think SWTOR will be that game...

 

Look at the post I quoted above, and try to say all of that again.

[Erasimus]

This.

Exactly what I've been saying.

This is why the game is going to fail.

 

Oh what's that?

No end-game. End-game is too easy.

Nothing to do.

No time sinks.

Too casual.

 

Failure.

The casual gaming craze claims another life.

 

You must be really sad then since WoW is going in the same exact direction, catering to the casual player. Now I haven't played WoW since day one, I think I started around a week after launch. For all of those almost 7 years I was in raiding guilds, still am for that matter.

 

With the LFR tool now in WoW it took me about 2 days to complete all of the new content. True they have "hard" modes, but your complaints are almost exactly those I hear from the "hard core" folks, including those in my current guild. I have 11 85 toons in WoW and I still play from time to time, who knows, maybe I'll roll a Panda in the next release ;-)

 

Of all the MMOs I've played only WoW and SWTOR have kept my interest. WoW had a lot of very serious issues that first year and continuing on for several years. Server crashes were common, not being able to get into instances was a common occurance, heck half our server left at one point it was so bad. I read estimates that less that 5% of the player base even saw the end boss in Naxx by the time Cata was released.

 

SWTOR has a lot of potential and I'm still having a lot of fun playing. (AION, Rift, Warhammer, LoTR, kept me playing hard for about a week before I started getting bored and eventually cancelled) SWTOR has already beat those times for me.

 

I'm not even a Star Wars Fan, but I'm really enjoying the story lines and yes even the PvP (even with the ability lag). There are issues no doubt, but I'm having so much fun I'll give the Dev's so time to address the issues. I love the class quest lines, I like the PvP, and am enjoying the differences from WoW.

[Sech]

You must be really sad then since WoW is going in the same exact direction, catering to the casual player. Now I haven't played WoW since day one, I think I started around a week after launch. For all of those almost 7 years I was in raiding guilds, still am for that matter.

 

With the LFR tool now in WoW it took me about 2 days to complete all of the new content. True they have "hard" modes, but your complaints are almost exactly those I hear from the "hard core" folks, including those in my current guild. I have 11 85 toons in WoW and I still play from time to time, who knows, maybe I'll roll a Panda in the next release ;-)

 

Of all the MMOs I've played only WoW and SWTOR have kept my interest. WoW had a lot of very serious issues that first year and continuing on for several years. Server crashes were common, not being able to get into instances was a common occurance, heck half our server left at one point it was so bad. I read estimates that less that 5% of the player base even saw the end boss in Naxx by the time Cata was released.

 

SWTOR has a lot of potential and I'm still having a lot of fun playing. (AION, Rift, Warhammer, LoTR, kept me playing hard for about a week before I started getting bored and eventually cancelled) SWTOR has already beat those times for me.

 

I'm not even a Star Wars Fan, but I'm really enjoying the story lines and yes even the PvP (even with the ability lag). There are issues no doubt, but I'm having so much fun I'll give the Dev's so time to address the issues. I love the class quest lines, I like the PvP, and am enjoying the differences from WoW.

 

Yea, I am disappointed with WoW I quit when wrath was released.

You got geared in 2 days before people already knew how to clear the content and it's easier than it was before.

But with that said, there's still tons of time sinks in WoW to keep people playing.

And I dont think everyone is clearing the ultra hard mode bosses in the highest level raids, that is still a small percentage of only the most competent guilds and competent players.

If BW want's to allow the casuals with no guilds to be running around in welfare epics, doing the normal mode raids, fine.

But there needs to be a hard mode that actually take effort and time to clear.

[Drallbait]

Look at the post I quoted above, and try to say all of that again.

 

I had multiple characters in Beta, and while I was disappointed that the leveling replayability wasn't as great as I expected because the World Quests are the same, it still was a lot better than say...WoW. So I understand the point of that post, but its a little excessive. You can easily play 4 alts with excellent replayability. And when I say play them, I mean that you are playing to enjoy the experience of leveling, as well as to make a character for end game.

 

I hated rolling alts in WoW, I love it in SWTOR.

 

In fact, the character I rolled in Retail was just the Horde version of the Alliance character I leveled (when they weren't frozen out) in WoW. Then when I tired of them, I rolled one other character that ever did something. So for 5+ years I only had two characters. I levelled a Death Knight solo as well there at the end of my WoW career, which was just fun at the beginning where the story was.

 

That won't be the case in SWTOR. I'll at least want to see early storylines of just about every class.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Drallbait

[Sech]

I had multiple characters in Beta, and while I was disappointed that the leveling replayability wasn't as great as I expected because the World Quests are the same, it still was a lot better than say...WoW. So I understand the point of that post, but its a little excessive. You can easily play 4 alts with excellent replayability. And when I say play them, I mean that you are playing to enjoy the experience of leveling, as well as to make a character for end game.

 

I hated rolling alts in WoW, I love it in SWTOR.

 

Well I guess we will see how well the game is doing after the first free month is over.

Either way, I have to thank you for keeping the discussion civil, you're the first person on the forums who has kept things civil while having this discussion.

 

I think it's because you understand where I'm coming from since you used to be a hardcore player.

[Erasimus]

Yea, I am disappointed with WoW I quit when wrath was released.

You got geared in 2 days before people already knew how to clear the content and it's easier than it was before.

But with that said, there's still tons of time sinks in WoW to keep people playing.

And I dont think everyone is clearing the ultra hard mode bosses in the highest level raids, that is still a small percentage of only the most competent guilds and competent players.

If BW want's to allow the casuals with no guilds to be running around in welfare epics, doing the normal mode raids, fine.

But there needs to be a hard mode that actually take effort and time to clear.

 

This is true, but with the rewards being the same for 10 person raids as for 25 person raids the whole structure that appealed to hard core folks (and I was hard core for quite a while) in the 40 person raid era and to a lesser extent the 25 person raids, has crumbled.

 

It is very simple, there just isn't as much money in creating "hard core" MMOs as in keeping more casual players happy.

 

I'm sure there will be harder content in SWTOR, but I for one would not like to see the days of having to farm for mats for hours on end in order to be "raid ready" come again. Heck in the old WoW days (40 person raids) we'd dock people DKP or kick them out of the raid for not having enough consumables. Being late to a raid could very well mean being g'kicked as would raiding with another guild. Can't say I'm sorry not to have to deal with that any more, lol.

[al_giordino]

Dying.

 

When talking to my friends, we're all still playing but slowly becoming more fed up, bored, whatever you want to call it.

 

I feel like I force myself to play hoping it will get better, because I *want* SWTOR to be the awesomest game ever, but the sad reality is it's not that great

 

Here's a couple of texts from some of my irl buddies:

 

"I dunno dude, SWTOR is kind of boring me. When I'm done playing for the night, I don't really feel like it was a satisfying experience. I think we had more fun playing L4D2."

 

"Same for me. I'm going to at least get to 50 and see what's up. Maybe the next expansion will have tons of sick content like WoW" (Noob doesn't realize an expansion is a year or two away)

 

"I'm trying to force myself to play, hoping it will get better, but it's all the same ****"

 

"Hopefully it comes decent over the next 6-12 months but honestly the game needs work"

[Drallbait]

Well I guess we will see how well the game is doing after the first free month is over.

Either way, I have to thank you for keeping the discussion civil, you're the first person on the forums who has kept things civil while having this discussion.

 

I think it's because you understand where I'm coming from since you used to be a hardcore player.

 

Thanks, I appreciate the same in your posts, and it was very refreshing to have this same old H vs. C forum debate again with someone that is civil in light of this new game.

[Sech]

Dying.

 

When talking to my friends, we're all still playing but slowly becoming more fed up, bored, whatever you want to call it.

 

I feel like I force myself to play hoping it will get better, because I *want* SWTOR to be the awesomest game ever, but the sad reality is it's not that great

 

Here's a couple of texts from some of my irl buddies:

 

"I dunno dude, SWTOR is kind of boring me. When I'm done playing for the night, I don't really feel like it was a satisfying experience. I think we had more fun playing L4D2."

 

"Same for me. I'm going to at least get to 50 and see what's up. Maybe the next expansion will have tons of sick content like WoW" (Noob doesn't realize an expansion is a year or two away)

 

"I'm trying to force myself to play, hoping it will get better, but it's all the same ****"

 

"Hopefully it comes decent over the next 6-12 months but honestly the game needs work"

 

 

I've heard the same things.

I really want the game to work, despite how hard I am on it.

I really want a new MMO and I really want this one to be the one.

I hope they add new raids, fix pvp, add new content. fix the bugs.

Add hard modes to those raids, and have separate rewards.

 

I hope....

 

I sometimes wonder if BW hears anything we say on these forums or even cares.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Sech

[Darth_Grissom]

I'm just trolling on here because I have nothing better to do right now. And if you want to know if this game will survive or not, wait till Diablo 3 comes out. If everyone disappears, it's not doing well.

 

On a serious note, consolidating some servers wouldn't be the worst idea. Some servers are seriously empty, and would actually benefit from being folded into other servers.

 

Ill never give blizzard another red cent. Diablo 1-2 sucked compared to Ultima Online and I am sure D3 will equally suck. Microtransactions galore are going to be in that game and I will NOT support activi$$ionblizzard who want to do nothing more then nickle and dime people.

 

About swtor? Im staying 100%. I have my wifes sub and my sub reoccuring on the regular month to month basis as it was in Ultima Online, FFXI, Wow and now this game.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Darth_Grissom

[Jubileet]

It isn't doomed. The game just launched and they need to work some things out. Plus, to be fair there are some mechanics that should have been put in place or better refined before the game launched that has some people frustrated.

 

No doom here just going to take BW time to get the game fully fleshed out. Could have done a better job but on the same token could have been a heck of a lot worse too. Fairly decent launch really least from my perspective.

 

Fairly decent launch I agree but there is no 'time' for things to be worked out, the only 'time' they really have is the 30 day window until gamers have to sub. If its not 'worked out' within that period, well RIP.

 

Even if things are worked out within a few months its too little too late unfortunately. This is the life cycle of an MMO.

[jarjarloves]

So, I'm a young guy. Through work and school (coupled with terrible home internet in my valley) I've only had the chance to experience 3 MMO's, WoW, City of Heroes, and SWTOR. I have enjoyed all three, though far be it from me to call them perfect gaming experiences. Though, to be fair, if I could get high-speed internet where I live, I would play A LOT more.

 

Now, 3/4 of the threads on the forums are complaints, issues, bugs, and low expectations that predict this game is "dead", "will die", "is broken", "is ruined", and so on. I have seen others praising the game, but nitpicking certain details. And, of course, the WoW comparisons and "back to WoW" comments pop up everywhere.

 

I want to know, and excuse my ignorance, but is it really that much of an issue? Is this game truly doomed? I'd like to remain skeptical of what I presumed was a vocal minority, but reading through certain threads reveals that there are some serious issues to be had. Are these kind of things normal?

 

I really like this game and I'm working on learning the mechanics, specifically PvP, so I can enjoy myself even more. But is it all pointless if the game is truly doomed to implode?

 

 

If you go by posts in the general forums to gauge the health of a MMO then

 

WoW has been dying for the past 8 years.

 

 

To paraprhase Sir Alec Guiness.

 

"General Forums you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy, we must use caution"

[Jubileet]

Well, I'm at level 14 now, and love my character, but am also excited about a few other ACs, so I'm not likely to get bored anytime soon. Sorry if that doesn't meet your expectations.

 

See, the different between play time for hardcore vs casual is HUGE. Its literally one or more orders of magnitude (x10, x100, etc.). So if you are all decked out in Epics and are bored, just move on to another game, or roll another character. People like you think you are what makes a mainstream MMO successful, but you are just dead wrong on that front. WoW isn't successful because it appeals to hardcore raiders, it is successful because it also appeals to the masses of people that just like to play a game in their free time a few hours a week. Only one MMO has ever succeeded on that front, but SWTOR is poised to be the second - and may well get the content together to attract a lot of hardcores as well.

 

Having been through the Onyxia pre-reqs for Horde multiple times in Vanilla WoW and help others countless of times, (and still wake up at night screaming "No, not LBRS again!" I am very glad SWTOR doesn't do any crap like that just to make it take longer!

 

I think the sad truth is that people like him DO make MMO's successfull. The casual gamers do not. Casual gamers make MMO's successfull at launch but Hardcore gamers make it the game a lasting success, not the casual gamers.

 

Problem is, MMO's are becoming so watered down that even the 'casual' gamers can max out very quickly. Which in turn has a negative effect on the MMO.

 

MMO's genre has changed to cater to casual gamers when they should cater to the hardcore gamers instead. There is no reason a casual gamer can't play and be successfull in a harder game. They just won't be AS successfull as a gamer who invest 2/3/4/ x more time.

 

MMO's are suppose to have no end, in my opinion anyway. If you cater toward casual gamers then that means everyone can reach end game... which means.. well basically its Game Over and you quit / move on.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Jubileet

[MukeFreerider]

So, I'm a young guy. Through work and school (coupled with terrible home internet in my valley) I've only had the chance to experience 3 MMO's, WoW, City of Heroes, and SWTOR. I have enjoyed all three, though far be it from me to call them perfect gaming experiences. Though, to be fair, if I could get high-speed internet where I live, I would play A LOT more.

 

Now, 3/4 of the threads on the forums are complaints, issues, bugs, and low expectations that predict this game is "dead", "will die", "is broken", "is ruined", and so on. I have seen others praising the game, but nitpicking certain details. And, of course, the WoW comparisons and "back to WoW" comments pop up everywhere.

 

I want to know, and excuse my ignorance, but is it really that much of an issue? Is this game truly doomed? I'd like to remain skeptical of what I presumed was a vocal minority, but reading through certain threads reveals that there are some serious issues to be had. Are these kind of things normal?

 

I really like this game and I'm working on learning the mechanics, specifically PvP, so I can enjoy myself even more. But is it all pointless if the game is truly doomed to implode?

 

Here in about 5 days, you should be able to tell whether the game is going to implode. That's when the first billing cycle hits.

 

If a majority of people are truly disgusted, you will see a massive drop in population numbers at the server select screen. Servers that are full or heavy will drop down to standard or light.

 

In theory, complaints on the board should die down as well because logically, if so many people are disgusted with the game, they will not continue to subscribe to it. And if they don't continue to subscribe to it, then they will no longer have access to post on the forums.

 

My guess though, is that you will still see a ton of complaints with people whining and crying about every little thing because this is what a lot of people who post on MMORPG message boards do. Everywhere. In every game.

[jarjarloves]

Dying.

 

When talking to my friends, we're all still playing but slowly becoming more fed up, bored, whatever you want to call it.

 

I feel like I force myself to play hoping it will get better, because I *want* SWTOR to be the awesomest game ever, but the sad reality is it's not that great

 

Here's a couple of texts from some of my irl buddies:

 

"I dunno dude, SWTOR is kind of boring me. When I'm done playing for the night, I don't really feel like it was a satisfying experience. I think we had more fun playing L4D2."

 

"Same for me. I'm going to at least get to 50 and see what's up. Maybe the next expansion will have tons of sick content like WoW" (Noob doesn't realize an expansion is a year or two away)

 

"I'm trying to force myself to play, hoping it will get better, but it's all the same ****"

 

"Hopefully it comes decent over the next 6-12 months but honestly the game needs work"

 

so because you and your friends are done playing its dying?

 

 

You do realize what anecdotal evidence is right?

 

Just because you and people you know feel that way doesn't mean its how everyone feels.

 

I could say me and all my friends aren't going to vote in November so the total number of votes are going to be lower then in 2008.

 

Which of course there is no way to tell. The total votes could actually go up even with everyone I know not voting.

[Jett-Rinn]

For a dying game I find it interesting that sub numbers are still increasing that most game stores in the UK have waiting list for box copies and that the Bioware guys are constantly doing happy dances over how far above their own projections the game has grown.

 

 

But yeah

Faaaaiiillllll dooooom f2p by neeeexxttt mooooonth!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

[Jubileet]

Isn't awfully convienant that the first big patch was pushed back until after the first billing cycle hits?

 

This might tell you something.....

[Mandrax]

Isn't awfully convienant that the first big patch was pushed back until after the first billing cycle hits?

 

This might tell you something.....

 

It's normal. 1.2 will come after a billing cycle too. It's good business.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Mandrax

[Jubileet]

For a dying game I find it interesting that sub numbers are still increasing that most game stores in the UK have waiting list for box copies and that the Bioware guys are constantly doing happy dances over how far above their own projections the game has grown.

 

 

But yeah

Faaaaiiillllll dooooom f2p by neeeexxttt mooooonth!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

 

If this was true then the server loads would be much higher and more servers would be created... but overall there are no more queues and overall population is decreasing. Just look at the Server selection during prime time... it's not most FULL or HEAVY anymore...

 

I find it unlikely that their subscriptions are increasing, at this point they are capping out for this month and will only be declining after the first billing cycle.

[Jubileet]

It's normal. 1.2 will come after a billing cycle too. It's good business.

 

Good marketing strategy to keep people subscribed one more month, unfortunately I wish it wasn't needed already.

[Democratus]

This isn't even a relevant discussion to have less than a month after release.

 

BioWare and the customers could take this whole enterprise in any direction from here. It's just too early to tell.