Patience.

[Teladis]

Ladies and gentlemen of the forums, and of BioWare,

 

May I take a moment to say thankyou for this game, it's fantastic. I'm not going to go into specifics just yet, but I would like to make some things clear to anyone who happens to read my post. Let me just say that I don't understand anything to do with programming and coding, and nor will I pretend to. However, being a rational human being and being an agreeable sort of guy (so long as I've got a couple of cups of tea inside me), I would like to just give my point of view on one of the matters at hand.

 

I simply wonder why people are upset about SW:TOR's bugginess; it's a pretty polished game compared to many releases on the market (Skyrim to name but one) and it works well. It's enjoyable, there's enough content to keep me happy for at least a few months - I think anyone who has multiple level 50 characters at the moment need to slow down, stop trying to "beat" the game, and smell the roses a bit. Perhaps see some sunlight every so often.

 

A lot of people on the forums complain that TOR doesn't have as much content as other MMO's, World of Warcraft of course being the main competitor. Well, of course it doesn't. It's a new release, WoW has had about 11 years of collective development time and 7 years of being live. Of course it has more content. But is the quality of late up to BioWare's standard? Personally, I don't think so.

 

Games - especially games of this scope - take time. Lots and lots of time. To quote Daniel Erickson, TOR's Lead Writer,

 

"We calculated it. We've got about 20 credited writers on TOR, and they produced 60 man-years of writing. If one person sat down to write our game, they'd be 60 before they finished. It's larger than every other BioWare RPG put together."

 

This is just the start of the journey, dear forum-ites, and we can bet (or at least hope) that BioWare will learn from Blizzard's mistakes. The quality of the quest delivery is already stellar. The game itself, graphically, looks far better than WoW ever will - and that's not my opinion, it's technical fact. Couple these traits with the pedigree of BioWare's past endeavours, along with the game system itself (which is tighter than me - and I'm a Yorkshireman), and you've got something truly special. So why try to skip to the end of the journey?

 

There are additions I feel BioWare could certainly make, specifically when it comes to the UI's feedback and responsiveness: A threat meter and custom UI support come to mind. But I know that, 6 months down the line, TOR will be sleeker. It'll be faster. It'll be more fun. And I'll still be playing it because I won't have over-indulged myself by trying to beat the game.

 

Enjoy the ride. Treat it like a game - something to be enjoyed and to be immersed in. Don't treat it like a gadget and complain until you're blue in the face because "WoW haz moar stuf!". That's like saying "Oblivion is better than Skyrim, because Oblivion's got mods and more time behind it". And it just doesn't work like that - does it?

 

And for those of you who has got three level 50 characters and feel the game is "lacking", please remember not to treat this like a job, and treat it more like a game - unless of course, TOR is your job, and you work for BioWare, in which case you have my undying envy.

 

Thankyou for reading this, thankyou for your consideration, and please leave "troll" comments at the door.

 

Cheers

 

Heb

 

 

I don't care about bugs it can be fixed.

I don't care about the UI and macros. it can be added.

 

 

 

What I do care about is the fun factor of end game. Something this game does not have. I had a great time getting to end game. Now that I'm here...I play more dark soul than I do this game.

 

 

So why should I keep paying monthly?

[Valadain]

Yeah, let's blame another game for being good and fun. Yeah, WoW is a very good and fun game. SWTOR is not, and that's the worse thing about this ****ed up situation. With their budget and WoW as an exaple to what people go for, to what they enjoy and the mistakes wow made, mistakes that they could avoid, SWTOR should have been the MMO player's Promised land. I want to enjoy this game more than I did WoW. I can't, because it's so full of mistakes and bugs that it makes it impossible.

 

Not fun for you. It is fun for a lot of others. Maybe you were looking for another game? I thought Rift was a fun game, but it wasn't what I was looking for, so I stopped playing after a while. Never felt the need to go to their forums and tell them that they failed to make a game that appealed to what I wanted. I guess I just don't understand the concept of expecting a company to cater specifically to your sense of fun at the expense of others.

[Perderedeus]

If I dislike a product for what I consider good reason I don't see the point in continuing to throw money at that particular service in the hope that the developer will make the changes I deem necessary to enjoy what they produce.

 

It's not a matter of patience.

 

It's a matter frugality with both my time and money.

 

Truthfully, whether I continue my subscription or not is my business, and calls for patience really aren't that effective with me.

 

Then by all means, take your money and go. Please. That is the strongest statement you can make to the developer.

 

If any item in the game right now is Game Breaking to you... so be it. You've your opinion. State it, and go. Why waste time and breath beyond hitting the Cancel button? Time better spent elsewhere... go spend it there?

 

I swear. If I acted like this when my first NES cartridge glitched, I would have missed out on a lot of fun. I would have cried about INJUSTICE and returned every other game and the entire system and swore off any future Nintendo products, and I'd feel so righteous in this decision. Maybe a few years later I'd realize I had egg on my face.

[EqItchy]

Then by all means, take your money and go. Please. That is the strongest statement you can make to the developer.

 

If any item in the game right now is Game Breaking to you... so be it. You've your opinion. State it, and go. Why waste time and breath beyond hitting the Cancel button? Time better spent elsewhere... go spend it there?

 

I swear. If I acted like this when my first NES cartridge glitched, I would have missed out on a lot of fun. I would have cried about INJUSTICE and returned every other game and the entire system and swore off any future Nintendo products, and I'd feel so righteous in this decision. Maybe a few years later I'd realize I had egg on my face.

 

Friend, you could do the same. You are happy with the status quo, stop posting your opinion and go play. Works both ways but people like to communicate, hence the forums

[Seuria]

Then by all means, take your money and go. Please. That is the strongest statement you can make to the developer.

 

If any item in the game right now is Game Breaking to you... so be it. You've your opinion. State it, and go. Why waste time and breath beyond hitting the Cancel button? Time better spent elsewhere... go spend it there?

 

I swear. If I acted like this when my first NES cartridge glitched, I would have missed out on a lot of fun. I would have cried about INJUSTICE and returned every other game and the entire system and swore off any future Nintendo products, and I'd feel so righteous in this decision. Maybe a few years later I'd realize I had egg on my face.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find posts where I outright complained.

 

Most of my posts are in the Jedi Knight forums concerning helping those struggling with bosses in the class story. I've found that I've had an easier time, and I actually like helping people when I can.

 

If I decide to leave I can assure you it will be quietly.

[Hebrind]

OP, you make too much sense. You can't be a forum-goer. To post on these forums, you have to froth at the mouth and complain about texture sharpness.

 

But really... there are many children getting up in arms about this texture issue and other minor issues in SWTOR. I say "children" because they are child-like in their actions, their thinking. They lack the patience you mention. They're really not the type of player that MMOs are designed for.

 

And that's fine. They can disagree with the game's direction or the current state. They should make mention of their displeasure and then vacate. That is the mature thing to do. Do not linger and spew vitriol or attack others who are enjoying this game. Alas, they do this... because they are so worked up about the problem that is so important to them, that nobody can possibly look beyond this major major issue they're all a-flutter about.

 

As I said, child-like.

 

If you're an MMO vet, you know who you are. You played Ultima Online for years. Or maybe Everquest. You might even still have active accounts there. You could also be a WoW veteran, since that is getting on 7 years now... and heck, you might even play on a MUD or two, too. The gist of it is... you have patience, you know what commitment is, you see value in the entire game, and $15 a month won't break you. These are the folks I salute, and I think Bioware values them most.

 

The fact of the matter is... if you compare to WoW, the vocal majority is claiming the game is a total failboat and dying fast. If you look deeper, you see millions of players still enjoying it. Same thing here. Vocal majority versus those who don't waste time to come to the forums and cry about the 25% less sharp character textures... they're too busy having fun questing, or in an FP, or PVPing, and generally not being Chicken Little.

 

So. Good on you, OP. Thanks for posting some sanity in this insane little world we have here.

 

Thankyou for your insight. You hit the nail on the head - I am indeed a UO veteran (1999!) and enjoyed the game thoroughly until the mass exodus hit Sosaria, and everyone left for EQ, and later, WoW. I don't rub my so-called "credentials" in people's faces, though, because I don't think they're important. I do believe 3 points mentioned by people thus far are valid. They are as follows:

 

1) Vote with your wallet. If you claim that the game is bad, and don't enjoy it - stop paying. Otherwise, I'm afraid you're what's known as a "hypocrite". Look it up.

 

2) Internet forums are, by and large, a vocal minority. There are personalities, and of course personalities clash from time to time - but as Perderedeus said, some people take it to a rather childish extreme and start "foaming at the mouth" (I particularly liked that one), and of course this can make it seem like 'everyone' dislikes the game. I can confidently say that's not the case.

 

3) WoW has spoilt people. I have a great respect for Blizzard, and I used to love WoW, ever since 2005 when I started playing it, up until early 2011 when I stopped because the content wasn't up to snuff. However, there's a vast amount of viewing through rose-tinted glasses when it comes to WoW. It wasn't always sunshine and rainbows, and WoW started off as a very basic, very narrow game. Yes, the 3D engine was kind-of new, but what held it together for most people was - and here's the irony - the story and the graphics. It had a tidy combat system but it was VERY confused with itself at European launch. Anyone remember +Holy power on daggers, when neither Priests nor Paladins could use them? I do - and I've not seen any mismatched gear in TOR...

 

Let me just quickly riff a list of comparisons between TOR and WoW - I'll use evidence, because I know many people will call for it:

 

TOR shipped with PvP warzones, arenas, Huttball and a "system" for it in place.

WoW shipped with world PvP, Battlegrounds were added months later.

 

WoW started out with no chat bubbles. They were added a massive 4 years later, in patch 3.2 - TOR currently has no chat bubbles, but I can't see it being 2016 when we get them!

 

WoW's first expansion, "The Burning Crusade", was nearly at the end of it's heyday when Guild Banks were introduced in patch 2.3

TOR has this on it's to-do list already.

 

TOR has a lot more bag space than WoW did on launch - older WoW veterans will remember carrying mounts around in their bags taking up valuable bank and bag slots.

 

Dual-Spec was brought into WoW halfway through WotLK, in the 3.1 patch, Secrets of Ulduar.

Again, this is something BioWare are looking into mere weeks after launch.

 

Macros - WoW shipped with them, but how many people actually used it other than to make anything much more than a raid announcement or /dance macro? I certainly didn't see it used, and I got all the way to the very tippety-top end game. I think I had one macro for telling me when my CDs were done. That is all.

 

The "MMO that was released not long ago" had a nearly bug free launch...

 

Parsers, Addons, a Customzeable UI, A Macro Interface, LFD(not super old but, old enough that everyone should be and is aware of it) and *gasp* Chat Bubbles.

 

This game is new but, these things^ are not. At least 3 have long been standards.

 

What I am trying to explain to you is - while these things may be "standard" in one game that's been on the market for 7 - count 'em - SEVEN years, and had Blizzard and later Activision's people working on for at least 11 years, take time to concoct and put into each game engine. And I'm sorry, but I don't care what dimension you're in, WoW was far from bug-free on release. Very far. I remember being a Retribution Paladin and stacking stacks of some buff, I forget the name, and one-shotting elites 2 levels higher than me. Bug-free? No, sir.

 

Simply put - BioWare have had more important things on their mind, such as making sure the stats balance correctly, that their combat system works, and that the main selling-point of the game, the story, voice acting, questing and overall "feel" of the game, work as well as possible for game that's been in development for a shorter period of time than WoW was.

 

You don't get it do you? There is no patience. The game is either great or it's doomed. WoW did not have to suffer this trial-through-fire because at the moment it came out there was nothing else better, no place people could fall back to and that was WoW's greatest advantage.

 

You have to consider that with the change in setting (from WoW fantasy to Star Wars sci-fi), this will most likely be a great number of people's first MMO. We're not all you, and we're not all WoW veterans. Me and you are, but take my brother, for instance, he's never played an MMO in his life. He loves Star Wars, and I can't think of a better introduction to next-gen MMO-ing than TOR - because he'll get the chance to "be there" in it's so-called trial by fire. He'll get to know it's bugs and love some, hate some. TOR will be his yardstick.

 

I will repeat what I said in my first, original post: Patience. Time heals all wounds.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Hebrind

[Vydor_HC]

I have patience for content, not for bugs.

[Hebrind]

I have patience for content, not for bugs.

 

See, this is my point exactly - you're champing at the bit for WoW-sized nuggets of content a mere 3 weeks after release. Three weeks! That's just not realistic. I would estimate to keep the current generation of MMO gamer "busy" (and remember, these are the people who happily took the experience drop in WoW so they could do the same quests over and over with a fresh character) would be at least a decade. Ten or so years of solid work to make a game that's got so much content and so much polish that it made your eyes melt and your brain fry.

 

Well, the latest Duke Nukem got at least 12 years and look how that turned out...

[TrifKaylon]

 

WoW started out with no chat bubbles. They were added a massive 4 years later, in patch 3.2 - TOR currently has no chat bubbles, but I can't see it being 2016 when we get them!

 

[Nitpick]

 

Chat bubbles were added way, way before this. It was sometime in vanilla - I honestly don't remember. But I had silly macros made for chat bubbles when Burning Crusade launched.

 

[/nitpick]

 

But yeah, as far as releases go...this game kicked the crap out of WoW's release. The first few months were brutal. TOR is gravy in comparison.

Edited January 12, 2012 by TrifKaylon

[Hebrind]

[Nitpick]

 

Chat bubbles were added way, way before this. It was sometime in vanilla - I honestly don't remember. But I had silly macros made for chat bubbles when Burning Crusade launched.

 

[/nitpick]

 

I'd love to see your evidence of this - because I certainly never heard of them before the aforementioned patch. And even then, were they officially supported? Were they "built in" to the game on release? No. Otherwise why would the patch have happened? There would have been an addon that was so widely used that there would be no call for "official" chat bubbles...

 

 

But yeah, as far as releases go...this game kicked the crap out of WoW's release. The first few months were brutal. TOR is gravy in comparison.

 

Yes. Yes it did. It's super-tidy. "Bang tidy" as some of us may say. I just don't see how people can complain about some of the trivial, small-time "problems" of such a polished title. It really is head-and-shoulders above most other MMO launches, if not all of them.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Hebrind

[UltimateKrucible]

The OP has hit the nail on the head for me.

 

This should be stickied!

[TrifKaylon]

I'd love to see your evidence of this - because I certainly never heard of them before the aforementioned patch. And even then, were they officially supported? Were they "built in" to the game on release? No. Otherwise why would the patch have happened? There would have been an addon that was so widely used that there would be no call for "official" chat bubbles....

 

http://www.wowpedia.org/Patch_1.3.0

 

Patch 1.3 in 2005. I don't know of any chat bubble addons - I certainly didn't use one before they added it.

 

I agree with most of what you say, but the absence of some features on release really is mind boggling. No, WoW didn't launch with chat bubbles...but it implemented them 7 years ago.

Edited January 12, 2012 by TrifKaylon

[Hebrind]

The OP has hit the nail on the head for me.

 

This should be stickied!

 

Cheers man, I appreciate it. It'd be good to see something at the top of the page alongside the "hate-mail" that gives another side of the story, something for people to look at and think "Oh, actually, it's not as bad as people say."

 

Because it's really not. BioWare have learnt from a lot of big mistakes - I think we should be able to forgive them a few small ones.

 

 

http://www.wowpedia.org/Patch_1.3.0

 

Patch 1.3 in 2005. I don't know of any chat bubble addons - I certainly didn't use one before they added it.

 

I agree with most of what you say, but the absence of some features on release really is mind boggling. No, WoW didn't launch with chat bubbles...but it implemented them 7 years ago.

 

I stand sort-of corrected. I would have preferred a more "official source" but I'm not going to argue with a wiki - not unless it's something blatantly obvious (like Pandaren being playable in WotLK or something daft.). Thanks for the effort of finding this. However...

 

If you cast a cursory glance down the "User Interface" changes, you'll see that many of the things TOR shipped with are things Blizzard put into WoW after US release. That's just another thing to consider...

Edited January 12, 2012 by Hebrind

[Bullwrath]

Thank you, OP for your insightful and pertinent post. The fact that it was responded to by so many spiteful, childish posts in no way detracts from the excellent points you made.

[TrifKaylon]

Cheers man, I appreciate it. It'd be good to see something at the top of the page alongside the "hate-mail" that gives another side of the story, something for people to look at and think "Oh, actually, it's not as bad as people say."

 

Because it's really not. BioWare have learnt from a lot of big mistakes - I think we should be able to forgive them a few small ones.

 

 

 

 

I stand sort-of corrected. I would have preferred a more "official source" but I'm not going to argue with a wiki - not unless it's something blatantly obvious (like Pandaren being playable in WotLK or something daft.). Thanks for the effort of finding this. However...

 

If you cast a cursory glance down the "User Interface" changes, you'll see that many of the things TOR shipped with are things Blizzard put into WoW after US release. That's just another thing to consider...

 

They used to have a patch history on the official site before they changed the design for Cataclysm. I looked there first, but couldn't find it on the new interface. That's correct though.

 

That said...

 

It may very well be that WoW added that stuff after release, but that doesn't change the fact that they added those things years ago.

 

I love the crap out of this game. I can't think of anything that would stop me from playing with it. But releasing a MMO game with no UI customization and no macro support in 2012 is something that I would consider a big mistake. We might be waiting months for these fixes, not to menton character customization options like a barber shop (and to a much lesser degree dual spec - I think it's necessary, but the free weekly respecs make the system far more manageable than WoW's was at launch).

 

Not something that will prevent me from playing this game way more than I should for the foreseeable future, but still - a big mistake.

Edited January 12, 2012 by TrifKaylon

[Cameirus]

Ladies and gentlemen of the forums, and of BioWare,

Games - especially games of this scope - take time. Lots and lots of time. To quote Daniel Erickson, TOR's Lead Writer,

 

They can have as much time as they want.

 

What they wont have is my sub money until its fixed.

Once its fixed, then they can have my time and my sub money, until GW:2 comes out and then I'm afraid my time has a prior engagement and my money will be joining it

 

Also why are PVPers so misguided? You aren't the focus of any relevant MMORPG at launch ever. You are a very loud minority. I hate PVP. PVP gets my PVE skills nerfed.

 

Which is why pve and pvp need separate skills, andd for PVE and PVP to be given equal weight in development right from the initial concept of the game, if only there was some company which would realise this and implement it, oh wait a sec there is. Shame its not Bioware.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Cameirus

[Solockic]

Right, what about the crappy PVP system, class balance. What about the ability animation bugs, the messed up crew skills, lack of grouping options, lack of class flexibility and so on. And you think someone gives a **** about chat bubbles? Are you serious?

 

If your serious about leaving then be serious!

[Hebrind]

They can have as much time as they want.

 

What they wont have is my sub money until its fixed.

Once its fixed, then they can have my time and my sub money, until GW:2 comes out and then I'm afraid my time has a prior engagement and my money will be joining it

 

Each to their own, man. No need to flap about it if you're leaving anyway.

 

I personally don't think I could go from a fantasy setting into another fantasy setting. I'm enjoying the sci-fi edge to TOR at the moment. But hey, good luck, go nuts. Hope it works out for you.

[nilssen]

I honestly don't mind the bugs.

 

My current issues are:

Choppy combat system with too long animations taking priority over the actual ability effect.

Advertised textures on "high", while in-game you're limited to low textures.

[Cameirus]

Each to their own, man. No need to flap about it if you're leaving anyway.

 

I personally don't think I could go from a fantasy setting into another fantasy setting. I'm enjoying the sci-fi edge to TOR at the moment. But hey, good luck, go nuts. Hope it works out for you.

 

I'm not too fussed on setting (sci-fi or fantasy) so long as its immersive and fun and with a good polished product.

 

I'm torn over SWTOR in terms of setting, on the one hand its star wars! and sci-fi, on the other its Star Wars and so there is very little to supprise me in terms of style, its always going to be pretty damm close to the movies no matter what.

 

But as you say, to each their own. If you are liking swtor, have fun.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Cameirus

[Vydor_HC]

See, this is my point exactly - you're champing at the bit for WoW-sized nuggets of content a mere 3 weeks after release. Three weeks! That's just not realistic. I would estimate to keep the current generation of MMO gamer "busy" (and remember, these are the people who happily took the experience drop in WoW so they could do the same quests over and over with a fresh character) would be at least a decade. Ten or so years of solid work to make a game that's got so much content and so much polish that it made your eyes melt and your brain fry.

 

Well, the latest Duke Nukem got at least 12 years and look how that turned out...

 

You didn't understand what I wrote. I said I HAVE patience for content. Meaning, I can wait for them to deliver new content down the road. I DO NOT have patience for a buggy game.

[Jackama]

what i want to know is where are all these people getting this "biggest MMO budget EVAR!" data from?..... its never been officially posted, and it is all speculation. ****, all of you

[Slightlycampana]

Having played Mortal Online my tolerance for bugs is quite high. I think the quality of the game is perfectly adequate for a release, and I think they have been working pretty hard on pushes out fixes as quickly as possible. (That said, I haven't progressed very far in the game yet but what I've seen so far is fine).

 

I am enjoying the levelling experience, but since I don't really enjoy WoW mechanics in my game I shall probably unsub once I've gone through the storylines.

[Solockic]

I have patience for content, not for bugs.

 

Well said.

[Hebrind]

You didn't understand what I wrote. I said I HAVE patience for content. Meaning, I can wait for them to deliver new content down the road. I DO NOT have patience for a buggy game.

 

Ah haaaaaaa, misunderstood, fair enough. Bugs can, of course, be fixed, and content will be added. So, it's a win/win situation, really! It'll just take a little bit of ...

 

*All together now!*

 

Patience.