Annihilation VS Carnage PvE DPS

[masterprtzl]

I am wondering if anyone has any mathematical proof putting one ahead of the other on single target? I know there are no combat logs but I have seen some math being done on other forums regarding each individual spec but none comparing the two. I have had people tell me ANNIHLATION IS TEH BEST OMG IT DESTROYS CARNAGE but without any actual reasoning as to WHY this is. Just a completely baseless claim and their arrogance on the matter just blows my mind. They say "i tried both" which again is a completely fallible argument

[elicious]

There is a severe lack of theory crafting done for this AC compared to many others as evidenced by the forums at sithwarrior.com. DPS sorcs have a ton of numbers crunched already and have specs that you probably wouldn't think about without the math to back it up (0/13/28), but marauders don't even have an initial compendium posted yet.

[Kibaken]

My guide should help a bit, but like the above poster said there's no hard math yet. I'm going to assume they're quite equal. Edited January 11, 2012 by Kibaken

[jellOfish]

Take this with a grain of salt but I find that with worse gear annihilation actually performed better. I respecced in my late 40's to annihilation and found that I was doing a bit better. Anihilate has good damage and low CD (the rage cost isn't really a problem).

 

However, now that I have better gear, carnage seems to do more.

 

All in all it is not a big difference. The main difference is how the damage is spread out. For carange you got burst while annihilation is more sustained. No math behind it though, just experience.

[Ardim]

I am wondering if anyone has any mathematical proof putting one ahead of the other on single target? I know there are no combat logs but I have seen some math being done on other forums regarding each individual spec but none comparing the two. I have had people tell me ANNIHLATION IS TEH BEST OMG IT DESTROYS CARNAGE but without any actual reasoning as to WHY this is. Just a completely baseless claim and their arrogance on the matter just blows my mind. They say "i tried both" which again is a completely fallible argument

 

 

Well for one, Annihilation has a bleeding heal. When you get 30 Fury and hit Berserk, each bleed tick will heal for 1% of their maximum health (3% each with 2 points in Hungering since Berserk guarantees each tick will crit). So with Hungering, you would be able to heal 18% maximum health.

 

Also, Carnage is mainly Burst damage so in my opinion, it's best for shorter fights, like say with players. Once you get that burst off, you have to wait for those cooldowns.

 

Annihilation though is constant bleed damage and is amazing for longer fights such as bosses. When you stack Deadly Saber and use Rupture on a target, you can hit quite a bit for each bleed tick and Annihilation also gets a hard hitting skill called Annihilate which has about a 66% chance to reset Rupture too.

[Selixx]

Also, Carnage is mainly Burst damage so in my opinion, it's best for shorter fights, like say with players. Once you get that burst off, you have to wait for those cooldowns.

 

I disagree, carnage has no significant cooldowns. You have 9s on force scream, which is your burst skill. The rest of the build is consistent damage. You can cover the force scream cooldown with a Ravage or Massacre weaving.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Selixx

[jellOfish]

I disagree, carnage has no significant cooldowns. You have 9s on force scream, which is your burst skill. The rest of the build is consistent damage. You can cover the force scream cooldown with a Ravage or Massacre weaving.

 

The full burst is gore into force scream and ravege, after that it's lower, more sustained damage and then once again as soon as ravage is up.

[masterprtzl]

The full burst is gore into force scream and ravege, after that it's lower, more sustained damage and then once again as soon as ravage is up.

 

Sure but even that isn't a very long cool down, you will be able to rotate 2 gores in between each one or so, with probably the best rage dump of the 3 specs, it seems to have VERY good consistent DPS.

 

But anyways, I guess I'll wait till the math is done, but every argument I see for annihilation is "ITS BETTER CUZ I SAID SO" and it drives me nuts trying to argue with someone like that lol

 

 

Also, to be clear, I am talking about level 50, not leveling. Leveling Carnage is so much faster, carnage + quinn is the fastest leveling by far from my experience.

Edited January 11, 2012 by masterprtzl

[nuwn]

Ok, so the only way i managed to find out which spec did the most dmg was by doing the sith champion boss in eternity vault (the 1v1 boss in 8man).

 

Last week i used carnage, this week i used annihilation.

I go on the highest hp mob (100k-ish on HM) and as carnage i finnished 3rd, after bounty hunter (who was on another 100k hp mob) and after assassin (who was on a 60k-ish hp mob).

This week i tried annihilation and with the same gear i destroyed by mob the quickest without even using beserk as the raid healing messes up the encounter.

 

Ok, fair enough its not a brilliant way to test but i did beat a BH (merc) and a sorc to killing their 100k hp mob as annihilation. Therefore i count annihilation as a pretty competitive pve dps spec, and carnage tbh is not that far behind.

 

Hope this helps but without any logs and without wanting to spend the hours theorycrafting the hell out of my char based on talents and tooltips, im happy with my experiment

 

PS: If anyone knows of any world mob with a high amount of hp that doesnt hit hard, i could test my theory better. If not then im going to have to wait a few more weeks and time how long it takes me to kill the boss. Im thinking about finding some level 40 elites/champions to test

[Bloodymoon]

Without CDs, Gore or stims my Massacre mainhand hits are around 1100-1200. So around ~2100 if nothing crits (two Ataru procs, mainhand + offhand) and 4k+ if everything crits.

 

That is my "low, sustained" dmg.

[Kirine]

Having tried both specs when clearing through the current raid content on both normal and hardmode, i by far prefer carnage as it seems to scale far better then annihilation with better gear, especially when u get a good amount of surge rating.

 

Annihilation has its uses with the heals but also its negatives, keeping dots up on some of the cycles in eternity vault is a pain and on the last fight burst damage is fantastic.

 

Hope this helps

[nuwn]

I dont know if any other carnage marauder has noticed but it seems that on the first boss of eternity vault you hardly get any artu procs compared to anyother boss. Im tempted to post a ticket but im not sure if its just me being retarded.

[Shadinaxx]

Unbuffed, I have 1531 str, 25% crit, 66% bonus crit dmg and 114% acc.

 

On a 30 second "parse" fraps video time stamp on the MXX Annihilator droid on 8 man normal, I was sustaining 3k(ish) dps (on the steady dps phase between 70% and 50%, staying in for missle barrages and not having to move, only got stunned once), after right clicking my buffs that I got from raid members. White dmg non crits were 1100-1300, ataru procs between 450-600 non crits, and Scream hitting for 3.5-4.3k. Ravage ticks were on avg 1700, 1900 and 2300 for their dmg ticks, respectively (crit and non crits, averaged out). Gore was an avg non crit of 1300 and critting for about 2.1k

 

This was last week's raid, this week's raid is scheduled for saturday, and I will make sure I post the video before I delete it, lol. However, I will be using full raid buffs, stims and adrenals for this upcoming raid.

 

If someone wants to do a similer recording with annihilation, we can compare the time stamps, add up the little numbers, an do the dmg meter "back woods style" lol

[Shadinaxx]

I dont know if any other carnage marauder has noticed but it seems that on the first boss of eternity vault you hardly get any artu procs compared to anyother boss. Im tempted to post a ticket but im not sure if its just me being retarded.

 

I get the procs, but some are missed, for one reason or another, partially because the boss is tall, some of teh numbers disappear, like I said, I'll record and post the video this weekend, and I'll have the camera at maximum distance (I eat the missle barrages, btw)

[Talarii]

I am wondering if anyone has any mathematical proof putting one ahead of the other on single target? I know there are no combat logs but I have seen some math being done on other forums regarding each individual spec but none comparing the two. I have had people tell me ANNIHLATION IS TEH BEST OMG IT DESTROYS CARNAGE but without any actual reasoning as to WHY this is. Just a completely baseless claim and their arrogance on the matter just blows my mind. They say "i tried both" which again is a completely fallible argument

 

Argument is irrelevant. Rage beats them both hands down. I have been all 3 specs and annihilation can almost keep up, but not quite, on single targets. Rage does more dps on single and aoe.

 

Here is why, rage gives you 30% crit bonus on force abilities. Smash gets a 100% dmg bonus and is made automatically to crit. I have a mix of tier 1/2 pvp gear and with expertise potion active my smash crit has gotten as high as 6300. Annihilation simply cannot beat that, carnage cannot come close.

[masterprtzl]

Argument is irrelevant. Rage beats them both hands down. I have been all 3 specs and annihilation can almost keep up, but not quite, on single targets. Rage does more dps on single and aoe.

 

Here is why, rage gives you 30% crit bonus on force abilities. Smash gets a 100% dmg bonus and is made automatically to crit. I have a mix of tier 1/2 pvp gear and with expertise potion active my smash crit has gotten as high as 6300. Annihilation simply cannot beat that, carnage cannot come close.

 

big burst =/= highest dps, you did read the title right? PVE DPS not PvP burst. Rage is definitely the best for warzones, for 1v1 Annihilation is probably better. But in warzones Rage just has insane burst I agree with that.

 

But its ALL burst in Rage, no sustained DPS.

[WarlordThuran]

Can any annihilation marauders also check how much your damage is reduced aprox on bosses? Sadly don't have access anything above hardmodes myself yet, however the main advantage of Carnage vs annihilation is the access to gore, and the higher dmg reduc the bosses have, the more this makes a difference.

[Basek]

Currently Annihilation is preforming better then Carnage for a few reasons. Ataru form is very undependable, plus the attacks themselves are mitigated by boss armour by a lot.

Annihilation benefits far more from beserk then Carnage does and gains stacks of fury far faster.

Surge scales extremely well with annihilation due to this and the bleeds are not reduced by boss armour.

 

The high mobility of Annihilation allows you to get out of HM/NiM mechanics such as Gharj's Frenzy and SOA's Lightning ball and not lose much DPS due to Charge's minimum range no longer a concern (Believe me, get knocked back from a boss + Slowed and get frustrated that you cannot charge and you'll see the benefits of no min. Range.)

 

Due to the High Fury, controlling the use of bloodthirst is far easier and we lose no DPS by "Sitting" on it waiting for the optimal burn phase. (You should be using Frenzy 40 seconds before a pull & on CD to max DPS, so you cannot justify saving it just for Bloodthirst)

 

Force Camo 100% Damage reduction that annihilation provides makes some boss mechanics a large joke.

 

The self-heals are "nice" but not to much to really sway a choice over carnage.

 

The rotation itself is very rage dependant but you're only high rage costing GCD is annihilate and you have plenty of time in-between CD's to gain the Rage back and still have plenty for rupture & Deadly Saber and the occasional Vicious slash.

[jellOfish]

Sure but even that isn't a very long cool down, you will be able to rotate 2 gores in between each one or so, with probably the best rage dump of the 3 specs, it seems to have VERY good consistent DPS.

 

But anyways, I guess I'll wait till the math is done, but every argument I see for annihilation is "ITS BETTER CUZ I SAID SO" and it drives me nuts trying to argue with someone like that lol

 

 

Also, to be clear, I am talking about level 50, not leveling. Leveling Carnage is so much faster, carnage + quinn is the fastest leveling by far from my experience.

 

I wouldn't say it's better or worse, it's different. It's also easier to generate rage.

[jellOfish]

Argument is irrelevant. Rage beats them both hands down. I have been all 3 specs and annihilation can almost keep up, but not quite, on single targets. Rage does more dps on single and aoe.

 

Here is why, rage gives you 30% crit bonus on force abilities. Smash gets a 100% dmg bonus and is made automatically to crit. I have a mix of tier 1/2 pvp gear and with expertise potion active my smash crit has gotten as high as 6300. Annihilation simply cannot beat that, carnage cannot come close.

 

OP secifically said it's for PvE...

[berkana]

Ok, one my english is bad. Two the marauder is a very had class to play, ive knowticed how defensly week i am. ive specced pvp for pve for two reasons. one the way i spec and rotation i have predition constantly on, 10 percent damage reduction helps, another reason my rotation uses alot of viciouse slash, and three sho chi form adds another 3 percent defence. it relies on alot of stuns using force choke pummel strike and smash, which has some good crits with this spec, plus the other defensive cool downs, i never even use undying rage . ima give you my spec and you can try it with your gear fairly decent im 41 with mid thirties, im upgradding as we speak but my viciouse slash does 900 normal and seen a 1800 crit or two , the damage is there the defence is there anyway heres my spec

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100rcZhGbMZrrMrzro0M.1

[AcaciaDragon]

Argument is irrelevant. Rage beats them both hands down. I have been all 3 specs and annihilation can almost keep up, but not quite, on single targets. Rage does more dps on single and aoe.

 

Here is why, rage gives you 30% crit bonus on force abilities. Smash gets a 100% dmg bonus and is made automatically to crit. I have a mix of tier 1/2 pvp gear and with expertise potion active my smash crit has gotten as high as 6300. Annihilation simply cannot beat that, carnage cannot come close.

 

OP was discussing Carnage vs Ahnilation in PvE. Please contribute tot he topic at hand, no one cares how high you crit.

[masterprtzl]

Currently Annihilation is preforming better then Carnage for a few reasons. Ataru form is very undependable, plus the attacks themselves are mitigated by boss armour by a lot.

Annihilation benefits far more from beserk then Carnage does and gains stacks of fury far faster.

Surge scales extremely well with annihilation due to this and the bleeds are not reduced by boss armour.

 

The high mobility of Annihilation allows you to get out of HM/NiM mechanics such as Gharj's Frenzy and SOA's Lightning ball and not lose much DPS due to Charge's minimum range no longer a concern (Believe me, get knocked back from a boss + Slowed and get frustrated that you cannot charge and you'll see the benefits of no min. Range.)

 

Due to the High Fury, controlling the use of bloodthirst is far easier and we lose no DPS by "Sitting" on it waiting for the optimal burn phase. (You should be using Frenzy 40 seconds before a pull & on CD to max DPS, so you cannot justify saving it just for Bloodthirst)

 

Force Camo 100% Damage reduction that annihilation provides makes some boss mechanics a large joke.

 

The self-heals are "nice" but not to much to really sway a choice over carnage.

 

The rotation itself is very rage dependant but you're only high rage costing GCD is annihilate and you have plenty of time in-between CD's to gain the Rage back and still have plenty for rupture & Deadly Saber and the occasional Vicious slash.

 

 

 

Thanks for the contribution, but what you said doesn't seem to have any math behind it, where did you get your info on annihilation? Every I have talked to says it "feels like more dps" or "i tried it and im doing more dps" (how can you tell when 3 others are also dpsing)

[Basek]

Thanks for the contribution, but what you said doesn't seem to have any math behind it, where did you get your info on annihilation? Every I have talked to says it "feels like more dps" or "i tried it and im doing more dps" (how can you tell when 3 others are also dpsing)

 

There isn't much math behind it, that's the hard part at the moment.

What is known is Almost all of Carnage damage is mitigated on Hardmode & Nightmare mode Armour. Ataru form Procs included making the overall damage lower dramatically. Where Annihilation is hardly effected by it.

 

Without a combat log to be able to count procs/Crits/midigation. You're not going to get much math sadly.

 

Edit: I've gotten my information from friends in Nerf Dialogue and testing both spec's in Nightmare mode Eternity Vault.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Basek

[Bloodymoon]

Well, and my Nightmare experience tells me that Carnage is best.