Crafting ISN'T USELESS, the schematics drop in raids

[Raeln]

Suppose someone typed this:

 

"Sigh. Yet again an MMO has raiding as a limited sideline, not as a viable entity which has it's own progression separate to other activities. And so, yet again, raiders are forced to partake in things like crafting to progress.

 

Bioware, I know you copied a lot from SWG and EQ2, but seriously, did you really need to take it to THIS level?"

 

How would that be any better? Many of the ideas in these types of threads would lead to just that, and that's the difficulty facing the designers.

 

On paper, having a "separate progression" for crafting makes sense, but the devil is in the details. Running an operation requires bringing together different players with different skills and coordinating them against common foes. There's skill involved in using abilities and knowing mechanics and luck involved in getting loot.

 

How do you duplicate that same effort in crafting? Do you make a "crafting OP" where you gather multiple crafters in a group? How would that work, especially when the craft model in SWTOR has *nothing* to do with skill, because it is purposely designed not to require much player interaction (the companions do all the work offscreen)?"

 

If you make the crafting progression "different", then you run the risk that it is viewed as too easy (or too hard) compared to the other ways of progressing. Raid schematics may not be the most elegant solution, but the beauty of them is that at the very least, no one can argue that the crafter had an easier time than the raider, because they both did the exact same thing to get their respective items. Moreover, they aren't required to "progress" in any way except in getting access to raid level abilities. You aren't raiding to get schematics for droid customizations or speeders. You're raiding to get access to raid-quality items. While imperfect, it doesn't seem like too much to ask.

 

I'd applaud the developer for having the courage to be different.

 

It is going to be interesting to find out what kind of metrics TOR has on raid absorption. In the Biochem nerf post today, Zeoller states that the majority of players are still in the 20s bracket. If that is the case - then the raid game is going to be stale for 6 more months, perhaps as much as 12 months before that majority is geared enough to attempt to pug raids.

 

Raids are an old and tired mechanic. It's time for something new or at the very least different.

[Aethyn]

If controlling the rate that gear enters the game were the only concern, then yeah. But it's also about balancing risk v. reward. Week long companion missions and hours of heroic 2s farming don't carry the same risk as operations do. There's the rub.

 

It's easy to say "come up with something better" while ignoring the fact that they designed a system to where they didn't have to. They made crafting require no skill on purpose -- and I don't mean that as a knock on crafting. It requires time, patience and a slew of other things, but it doesn't require player interaction or strategy in the same way as operations. People say "side game" as a perjorative, but it's hard to escape that crafting was designed that way pretty specifically. None of that should mean that it's less worthwhile, but we have to be realistic about some of its limitations.

 

In particular, asking them to shoehorn the rewards from a system that is designed entirely differently onto crafting is a bit much in light of that.

 

Point taken.

 

I look at the "puzzle" they designed and implemented for aquiring the magenta crystal. That is soloable, takes time and effort. Is this not precident for creating a crafting system where one could have these types of adventures to achieve the ability to craft an epic item?

 

I don't care what the last MMO did. I care what the next MMO does. Let's think outside the box and make crafting just as fun as the class stories, and the flashpoints, and the raiding... and for once make it just as rewarding.

[hAxberg]

Here's a question.

 

Why does someone who never raids need gear that's better than raiding gear.

 

I mean, if your progress stops at world bosses and hardmode flashpoints then your gear progression needs stop there too.

 

Haha very very good point!

 

The best gear should be the gear that's most difficult to get (time/effort/skill). Which in my book is downing bosses in raids.

 

If u dont like to raid and instead prefer to play PvP there is good gear to get thrue pvp also, but as stated above, its much harder to succed in raid then in pvp and therefore the pvp gear isnt as good.

 

Kinda makes sense?

[TrevNYC]

I'd applaud the developer for having the courage to be different.

 

Being different just for the sake of being different isn't courageous. This rests on the assumption that the status quo is bad.

 

To understand the dilemma, imagine something in a game that you like. If you can't imagine anything in this game, then picture another one. Now imagine that the developers just changed it. Do you applaud their courage? How about if they change it into something that you think is worse? Still applauding? What if you consider that the most-maligned game on these boards (I'm sure you can guess what it is) is doing things "differently" than it used to, despite it's historic success? Not everyone is applauding their courage.

 

And all of that still begs my question. It's easy to say, "do something different and better than what everyone else has done." I think every developer should do that. Heck, I think everyone who does anything should do it better and more awesomely than the way previous people did it. It's a lot harder to imagine what that might be. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" may be trite, but like many trite things there's some truth to it.

 

The developers at BioWare are talented people, but they are still people. They aren't magical creatures.

 

Raids are an old and tired mechanic. It's time for something new or at the very least different.

 

That's perfectly valid feedback. You should recognize, though, that lots of people like them. Your "something new" shouldn't ignore them, or you end up just trading one group of disgruntled people for another.

[Smokt]

Thats just brilliant, whats next people asking for a button to click that automatically takes them from level 1-50?

 

Spacebar

[hAxberg]

Point taken.

 

I look at the "puzzle" they designed and implemented for aquiring the magenta crystal. That is soloable, takes time and effort. Is this not precident for creating a crafting system where one could have these types of adventures to achieve the ability to craft an epic item?

 

I don't care what the last MMO did. I care what the next MMO does. Let's think outside the box and make crafting just as fun as the class stories, and the flashpoints, and the raiding... and for once make it just as rewarding.

 

I Agree with u and I think u have a very good point.

But I think that what u say is the challenge every gamedeveloper is facing, to be able to make a game that suits every type of gamer. Me myself would love if they made the the game independent of raids. A game where u could play the game in alot of different ways but still achieve the same reward would be epic. Ofc the different ways should be equally challenging.

 

To make swtor 100% raiddependent is a letdown and feels somewhat old, not what I except from Bioware. I demand more from a mmo 2012 and a huge gamedeveloper as Bioware.

[Raeln]

Being different just for the sake of being different isn't courageous. This rests on the assumption that the status quo is bad.

 

Not the same thing that I was alluding to.

 

To understand the dilemma, imagine something in a game that you like. If you can't imagine anything in this game, then picture another one. Now imagine that the developers just changed it. Do you applaud their courage? How about if they change it into something that you think is worse? Still applauding? What if you consider that the most-maligned game on these boards (I'm sure you can guess what it is) is doing things "differently" than it used to, despite it's historic success? Not everyone is applauding their courage.

 

And all of that still begs my question. It's easy to say, "do something different and better than what everyone else has done." I think every developer should do that. Heck, I think everyone who does anything should do it better and more awesomely than the way previous people did it. It's a lot harder to imagine what that might be. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" may be trite, but like many trite things there's some truth to it.

 

If raid content absorption numbers were consistently above 50% across multiple MMOs, I wouldn't even support my own position that raiding, in general, is not popular.

 

That's not the case. In reality - even with WoW's ultra-nerfed down LFR tool - only ~34% of players have completed and killed Deathwing. It is virtually impossible for a raid to get easier than it is in the LFR tool and only 34% care enough to complete it. I won't even spend any time speaking to the 5% that have bothered with completing Deathwing on normal mode.

 

People, in general, do not like raiding. They tolerate it because it is the only mechanism available to make their gear more powerful than it is today.

 

The developers at BioWare are talented people, but they are still people. They aren't magical creatures.

 

I love those Bioware guys and yes, they are ultimately human and can make mistakes.

 

That's perfectly valid feedback. You should recognize, though, that lots of people like them. Your "something new" shouldn't ignore them, or you end up just trading one group of disgruntled people for another.

 

Do not mistake "lots" with the majority. Sure, in a conference hall filled to the brim with dedicated gamers, "lots" of them will shout, cheer and scream at every little tidbit of new raid information dropped from the Q&A panel's table. Note: only the more "dedicated" gamer or fan is going to bother buying tickets, hotel rooms and taking vacations from work to appear at said conference.

 

Out in the real world, where those that apparently have not got their 1st character past the 20s yet (Zoeller's own admission today), they won't be ready for raiding for months to come, even if they care about it at all.

 

Please remember, that back in 2006 - when Blizzard made the enormous push for TBC raiding - they finally acknowledged that only 40% of their playerbase had even set foot one time in any raid zone during Vanilla. That means the majority (60%) had no appreciable interest in raiding at all. The game had been live for 2 years at that point.

[Raeln]

I Agree with u and I think u have a very good point.

But I think that what u say is the challenge every gamedeveloper is facing, to be able to make a game that suits every type of gamer. Me myself would love if they made the the game independent of raids. A game where u could play the game in alot of different ways but still achieve the same reward would be epic. Ofc the different ways should be equally challenging.

 

To make swtor 100% raiddependent is a letdown and feels somewhat old, not what I except from Bioware. I demand more from a mmo 2012 and a huge gamedeveloper as Bioware.

 

I'm looking for a game that places all gear drops on a vendor and lets them be purchased for a game currency. That currency is earned, at different rates, from any end-game gear path - be it Flashpoints, PvP, Raiding, Soloing, or whatever new mechanics are implemented.

 

The currency prices and earning structures are paced in a manner so that everyone is expected (that completes their daily/weekly potential) will be fully geared within X number of weeks.

 

With a system like this, it wouldn't matter what it is that you actually do - given enough time, you'd have the same thing as everyone else and be in the position to move right into the next content patches new content.

 

I'd expect raids and "ranked" PvP to provide the largest currency rewards per week since I will recognize they require the highest level of "effort" in interfacing with a large number of other players - yet, with weekly caps - everyone should be buying their last piece at roughly the same time.

 

To the inevitable reply of "you don't raid, you don't need better gear" - I reply with, neither do you. Your raids are only balanced to require more powerful gear because raiders demand largely inflated gear as a carrot to just do the content in the first place. If raiders raided to enjoy the company of their friends, they wouldn't need gear that literally overpowers them against every other facet of the game.

[_Flin_]

Haha very very good point!

 

The best gear should be the gear that's most difficult to get (time/effort/skill). Which in my book is downing bosses in raids.

 

If u dont like to raid and instead prefer to play PvP there is good gear to get thrue pvp also, but as stated above, its much harder to succed in raid then in pvp and therefore the pvp gear isnt as good.

 

Kinda makes sense?

 

This is a selffulfilling prophecy.

 

When the hardest is to down bosses that need a gearcheck from gear only obtainable in raids... then of course raids are the hardest. When this is the only place where you really need that kind of gear.

 

But that is a question of design.

 

Apart from that, PvP is always harder than a scripted boss.

 

But you still dont get that the "best" equipment doesn't exist (only for specific purposes)

And that the point is that there are

- hardly any useful items to be crafted wihtout raiding

- no crafting specific items at all (like a crafters set improving your crit chances for crafting or reducing the mission times

- noone wants to take anything away from raiding or pvp,but make crafting worthwhile and at least exchange the position of crafting and vendors.

 

Commendation items lvl 49, crafting lvl 51.

Top gear is currently lvl 58.

[TrevNYC]

Point taken.

 

I look at the "puzzle" they designed and implemented for aquiring the magenta crystal. That is soloable, takes time and effort. Is this not precident for creating a crafting system where one could have these types of adventures to achieve the ability to craft an epic item?

 

That isn't soloable. At least one component requires a drop from a world boss, which is the "raiding" that people love to hate.

 

But let's assume for the moment that the entire mission arc was soloable. It certainly would be precedent for solo-player epic content. But it would also be precedent for the idea that large-group content and solo-player content can coexist, because the Magenta Crystal Arc doesn't invalidate the operation-dropped schematics. So then, why the hate for the simple fact that some schematics drop in operations? Plenty of schematics don't.

 

That to me, is the kicker. People are upset that a handful of schematics can be obtained in large-group content. I can understand why people might not think the crafting system is rewarding as a gameplay experience (it's not interactive, for example), but I have no idea why having some schematics drop in an operation is what makes it that way. If the crafting system is unrewarding, then it was unrewarding before anyone found out about the op drops, right?

 

That's why some posters are calling shenanigans. The only way this argument makes sense is if the "reward" from crafting comes from the fact that people who raid can't get schematics from them, or at the very least if everything they get is something you can get without doing raids. If the reward was in making things that players use, then people would care a lot less about why those people want them and more about the fact that people want them to begin with.

 

There are numerous posts from people who say they are having success (and more importantly, fun) with crafting, and they immediately get drowned out by responses that basically amount to, "that's because everyone on your server is too stupid to realize that everything you make is worthless." How is that any less elitist than anything the raiders say? Why aren't my credits worth the same as Joe the Elite Raider? As a crafter, is it your job to judge why I want to pay for ship upgrades? Are you unable to find it rewarding to sell your wares to anyone but the fanciest of proverbial pants?

 

I don't care what the last MMO did. I care what the next MMO does. Let's think outside the box and make crafting just as fun as the class stories, and the flashpoints, and the raiding... and for once make it just as rewarding.

 

Okay, but those other things took a lot of time to develop. Not everyone seems prepared to pay the same costs to make that happen. The system you describe might have delayed the game another year or more, particularly given that, as people are fond of pointing out, no one has ever done it before to everyone's satisfaction. Even if they are working on it right now, it's unlikely that it's going to be done anytime soon. So what happens in the meantime? Do they make schematics not drop in operations while we wait?

[Jaysun]

it's the other way around.

 

Raiders start crying when they see non-raiders wear the same type of gear as them.

What losers.

Does it matter to you what other people wear?

Raiders want powerful gear to make it easier to kill monsters and trivialize content.

Same goes for non-raiders.

 

 

^

 

that

[TrevNYC]

That's not the case. In reality - even with WoW's ultra-nerfed down LFR tool - only ~34% of players have completed and killed Deathwing. It is virtually impossible for a raid to get easier than it is in the LFR tool and only 34% care enough to complete it. I won't even spend any time speaking to the 5% that have bothered with completing Deathwing on normal mode.

 

1. Killing deathwing isn't the same as raiding. How many people have participated in some form of raid? How many have done it more than once? Even if they didn't win, did they enjoy it enough to want to try it again? If they didn't like it, was it because it was too confusing? Too hard? They didn't get the reward they wanted? It was just easier to grind out some heroics? There are a tremendous number of variables that don't lead to the same conclusion that you did.

 

2. How many people have maxxed out a crafting profession? How many of them found it rewarding? Did they do it so that they could make things, or because of a "perk?" Even if we accept the conclusion that people in general do not like raiding, it does not follow that they therefore must like crafting more.

[TrevNYC]

Please remember, that back in 2006 - when Blizzard made the enormous push for TBC raiding - they finally acknowledged that only 40% of their playerbase had even set foot one time in any raid zone during Vanilla. That means the majority (60%) had no appreciable interest in raiding at all. The game had been live for 2 years at that point.

 

My apologies for quote splitting, but I had to address this point. It is, unfortunately, a logical fallacy.

 

Putting aside the ancient numbers, all they show is that 60% of the playerbase at that time hadn't attemped the raids. Those numbers can't gauge "appreciable interest" because there were other barriers to entry besides interest.

 

For example, raids required 40 people in Vanilla. That was considered more forgiving than Everquest raids, which had up to 72-person raids at one point. We have no idea how many of those people wanted to try them but felt overwhelmed by the requirements, or even how many of those people who didn't want to try them might be willing to try a "raid" of 8-12 people. (To that end, numbers that discuss the popularity of WoW's 10-person format would be more appropriate, but we don't have them).

[Phildatious]

But why cant our crafted stuff at max be equal to daily commendation gear then? Wouldnt that make it all nice and somewhat fair? If our stuff was as good as stuff you could grind, we'd be happy. If item modification crafters (art, arms, cyber) could craft the 23 stuff, we would actually be able to appeal to the market. If synth and armor gear was on par with tionese gear (mostly in endurance as secondary stats make up for the lack of primary) wouldn't this not be an issue?

[TrevNYC]

But why cant our crafted stuff at max be equal to daily commendation gear then? Wouldnt that make it all nice and somewhat fair?

 

Sure.

 

If our stuff was as good as stuff you could grind, we'd be happy.

 

Slight correction: You might be happy if none of the stuff you could grind was better than any of your stuff. I say that because some of the stuff you make already is as good or better than stuff you can grind, and yet people aren't happy.

 

If item modification crafters (art, arms, cyber) could craft the 23 stuff, we would actually be able to appeal to the market.

 

Again, just a slight correction/clarification: you would be able to appeal to more of the market. Many crafters who post here seem to conflate the lack of a specific market that they want with the lack of any market whatsoever.

 

If synth and armor gear was on par with tionese gear (mostly in endurance as secondary stats make up for the lack of primary) wouldn't this not be an issue?

 

No, it wouldn't, assuming that it isn't on par, which is debatable. It also might not be an issue if people could transfer the stats of tionese gear into custom items made by crafters, which is one short-term issue that is being addressed.

[Nirosu]

I find it funny that the first part of title is the complete opposite of the second half. Crafters should be where non-raiders and non-high end pvpers get the best gear period. The crafters should not have to raid or pvp to get schematics, they should have to get the schematics from other players or work for it themselves be it solo, raid, pvp, or however the schematic is dropped but it should never be BOP. Along with someone can only need roll on a schematic if they can use it at that time.

But the gear lvls should go something like solo -> crafted not requiring raid or pvp mats -> raid / pvp -> crafted requiring raid or pvp mats.

[Amdarius]

The items made from those schematics aren't all that earth shattering in any event.

[pokota]

Patterns and schematics dropping in raid instances kills non-raiding crafting.

 

The issue isn't that raiders get better gear, it's that raiders get better gear from raid drops AND they get total control of the crafting market. There is no reason for it to be that way. Raids should yield BoP raid gear that is better than what you can buy, that's totally fine and understandable. However, raiding should NOT be a prerequisite for being a successful crafter.

 

Gear availability should be layered, to prevent the individual segments from being locked out or bypassed. Pre-raid and early raid gear should come from crafting. Raid gear should come from actually raiding. If schematics and patterns for BoE gear comes from raids, then you're going to see people COMPLETELY SKIP normal crafting gear and buy raid-quality gear from the GTN. That's a completely raid-centric approach, when BioWare themselves implied that the best crafters wouldn't necessarily always be the "official" crafters for high level guilds.

 

Like a lot of people, I used to be a raider, then got tired of having a virtual second job. If BioWare just wants to appeal to raiders, that's fine, more power to them, but that means I'll probably find something else to play.

[ValaxDarkseer]

I love "I pay the same sub fee so gimme my Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker" threads. Edited January 14, 2012 by ValaxDarkseer

[TrevNYC]

Patterns and schematics dropping in raid instances kills non-raiding crafting.

 

The issue isn't that raiders get better gear, it's that raiders get better gear from raid drops AND they get total control of the crafting market.

 

They don't get total control of the crafting market. Comparatively few schematics drop in raids. We don't know if they even cover every character slot. Some crafts (i.e., armstech) are starting to assume that none of their schematics drop in raids, because they haven't yet seen any. We have absolutely no evidence to suggest that these schematics will kill the demand for products made by people who don't ever do any operations.

 

Plus, this complaint is dismissive of the overall market. It would be like people saying retail is dead because a few stores sell high-end items that aren't available in other stores. People can successfully sell high quality goods even if those goods aren't the absolute highest quality goods available.

 

Like a lot of people, I used to be a raider, then got tired of having a virtual second job. If BioWare just wants to appeal to raiders, that's fine, more power to them, but that means I'll probably find something else to play.

 

You might be better served if you didn't see "raid" and reflexively hunker down for the long "us vs. them" battle. A "raid" (i.e., operation) in swtor is a minimum of eight people. To put that in perspective, that's a whopping three more people than is required just for a regular group in several other MMOs (which presumably turned you off to raiding as a concept).

 

As for the time commitment, again you'd be helped if you looked at what swtor ops really are instead of what you assume they might be. There are flashpoints that take longer to do than ops. Raiding isn't a lifestyle choice anymore (even in those "other games.")

[Pudsley]

Well, neither do I. But "time and effort" and "raiding" are two different pairs of shoes. Because for "raiding" you need 15 other people, which reduces flexibility to zero.

 

I agree completely but that is a distinction few people seem to be able to make.

 

Seems the same rule applies to SWTOR as it does to all other MMO's, raid or get the shaft even in non raid professions.

 

It works but I have one way to describe it to the person(s) who created it UNIMAGINATIVE!

 

Sounds harsh? After reverse engineering for a week over 100 blue level 49 "Redoubt Carbon Fiber Headgear" pieces I have come to what I feel is a fair assessment of your non raid crafting system, it's worthless.

 

At 4 Ciridium bars per craft had I sold all of the mats instead I'd probably be a million credits better off as the prices for these were quite high initially, that's money I will never make back even if I do eventually get the purple recipe since the items are quite mediocre.

 

A crafting system that makes you wish you hadn't bothered is a complete failure.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Pudsley

[Tarka]

Suppose someone typed this:

 

"Sigh. Yet again an MMO has raiding as a limited sideline, not as a viable entity which has it's own progression separate to other activities. And so, yet again, raiders are forced to partake in things like crafting to progress.

 

Bioware, I know you copied a lot from SWG and EQ2, but seriously, did you really need to take it to THIS level?"

 

How would that be any better? Many of the ideas in these types of threads would lead to just that, and that's the difficulty facing the designers.

 

On paper, having a "separate progression" for crafting makes sense, but the devil is in the details. Running an operation requires bringing together different players with different skills and coordinating them against common foes. There's skill involved in using abilities and knowing mechanics and luck involved in getting loot.

 

How do you duplicate that same effort in crafting? Do you make a "crafting OP" where you gather multiple crafters in a group? How would that work, especially when the craft model in SWTOR has *nothing* to do with skill, because it is purposely designed not to require much player interaction (the companions do all the work offscreen)?"

 

If you make the crafting progression "different", then you run the risk that it is viewed as too easy (or too hard) compared to the other ways of progressing. Raid schematics may not be the most elegant solution, but the beauty of them is that at the very least, no one can argue that the crafter had an easier time than the raider, because they both did the exact same thing to get their respective items. Moreover, they aren't required to "progress" in any way except in getting access to raid level abilities. You aren't raiding to get schematics for droid customizations or speeders. You're raiding to get access to raid-quality items. While imperfect, it doesn't seem like too much to ask.

 

Firstly you cannot just suppose that raiding would become less viable if crafting became more viable. Especially when other games have proven that crafting can be much more viable as a form of progression than the typical "WoW Crafting" formula.

 

Secondly, each major type of gameplay activity can be designed to have it's own viability and progression that does not render others pointless. To think other wise is to be myopic and follow the same route that WoW did. Yes, WoW is popular, but not everything in WoW is the ultimate in MMO design.

 

 

The typical "raiding" mindset often believes that the ultimate in "effort" is raiding, and everything else is lower in value in terms of effort. That is complete rubbish. Yes, taking down raid bosses in the beginning requires effort. I'm not going to despute that, BUT, each activity can have it's own comparable scale in terms of effort.

 

For example:

It may take a raid a few hours to take a boss down. Now, let's suppose the crafting system required x amount of hours effort in order to get a particular schematic AND craft an item from it. Is that of less value in terms of effort? No.

 

 

 

TL;DR: Raiding isn't the "be all and end all" in terms of effort and therefore reward. Only certain more recent MMO's have pushed that mindset.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Tarka

[lokivoid]

Or from Nightmare Flashpoints.

Or World Bosses.

Or things like the Magenta Crystal.

 

These are all fine with me. Raiding is not.

 

Magenta crystal is crap, Its nothing more than a vanity item.

[Tarka]

They don't get total control of the crafting market. Comparatively few schematics drop in raids. We don't know if they even cover every character slot. Some crafts (i.e., armstech) are starting to assume that none of their schematics drop in raids, because they haven't yet seen any. We have absolutely no evidence to suggest that these schematics will kill the demand for products made by people who don't ever do any operations.

 

Plus, this complaint is dismissive of the overall market. It would be like people saying retail is dead because a few stores sell high-end items that aren't available in other stores. People can successfully sell high quality goods even if those goods aren't the absolute highest quality goods available.

 

 

 

You might be better served if you didn't see "raid" and reflexively hunker down for the long "us vs. them" battle. A "raid" (i.e., operation) in swtor is a minimum of eight people. To put that in perspective, that's a whopping three more people than is required just for a regular group in several other MMOs (which presumably turned you off to raiding as a concept).

 

As for the time commitment, again you'd be helped if you looked at what swtor ops really are instead of what you assume they might be. There are flashpoints that take longer to do than ops. Raiding isn't a lifestyle choice anymore (even in those "other games.")

 

Whilst I can appreciate what you're trying to do, I think you're missing the point.

 

To all intents and purposes, raiding isn't just killing the boss. it's killing a boss, getting the drops AND getting the schematics (if they exist or drop). Here's a rhetorical question:

 

Why should raiders be rewarded to this extent, when players who enjoy other activities get far less even when they are required to put in comparable effort?

 

Also, there shouldn't be an automatic assumption by MMO devs that ALL players will ultimately become raiders. Regardless of what form raiding takes (i.e. 8 players instead of 16 etc, etc).

 

Like I said before: EACH major type of gameplay activity needs to be considered and designed to be viable on it's own (i.e. solo'ing, grouping, raiding, pvp, crafting, etc, etc). Only THEN does true variety exist.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Tarka

[Tarka]

I agree completely but that is a distinction few people seem to be able to make.

 

Seems the same rule applies to SWTOR as it does to all other MMO's, raid or get the shaft even in non raid professions.

 

It works but I have one way to describe it to the person(s) who created it UNIMAGINATIVE!

 

Sounds harsh? After reverse engineering for a week over 100 blue level 49 "Redoubt Carbon Fiber Headgear" pieces I have come to what I feel is a fair assessment of your non raid crafting system, it's worthless.

 

At 4 Ciridium bars per craft had I sold all of the mats instead I'd probably be a million credits better off as the prices for these were quite high initially, that's money I will never make back even if I do eventually get the purple recipe since the items are quite mediocre.

 

A crafting system that makes you wish you hadn't bothered is a complete failure.

 

Completely agree. I'm beginning to think that at top end there's a load of schematics missing.