Private combat logs?

[Kabjat]

No one gives a crap about EQ1 raiding. It was all time sink and o skill involved.

 

The raiding in TOR is nearly identical to WoW.

 

 

And if that's the case, as I have raided hardmodes in wow, I cannot imagine doing so without combat logs. The people who have managed it must have experienced much swearing in vent.

[Vydor_HC]

It's even more humorous to see people called bad because they want something as basic as a combat log when the developers keep saying it's a good thing.

 

These threads always go this way too, it's tragic. All it'll take is the developers finally releasing it and we'll see who is "bad."

 

Yeah, the personal log right? Which is different than what is being argued here. This thread has veered away from the OP quite a bit.

[Setanian]

It's even more humorous to see people called bad because they want something as basic as a combat log when the developers keep saying it's a good thing.

 

These threads always go this way too, it's tragic. All it'll take is the developers finally releasing it and we'll see who is "bad."

 

The developers know that if they do not provide the information these apparent raiders need to raid, there will be no raiding, ergo, no end-game.

[MasterKayote]

AS I have mentioned, every boss while raiding has some sort of DPS enrage timer.

 

The enrage really shows up on HM and NM modes, so you can know the fight and understand it however without some sort of dps gauge you can wipe over and over to the 200 percent enrage damage.

 

If BW did not want the push for dps meters, they should of designed their endgame around it.

 

Didnt answer my question. I know there are and will be enrage bosses. My question is, are people doing it without any meters, right now? You dont need a DPS guage to do it, you need the correct amount of collective DPS. IF by some chance someone is doing really bad at DPS, they have their own personal information there to to see and improve upon it. He practices, looks it up online, next time the guild comes through and moves on.

 

I see absolutely no reason to bring down the entire community by another level for a tool that is only really helpful (not necessary) for a handful of bosses in the game. If anything they should include it for those specific boss fights only.

[Hairless]

Its humorous and ironic to watch people that require all these extra tools in order to do content refer to other players as bad. I always get a kick out it.

 

Let me know when you have cleared all raiding content, from normal to nightmare, without you or anyone in your raid ever using meters or combat logs.

 

Just because the top 1%, the super amazing and hardcore guilds did it doesn't mean everyone can. You really have to have been born with an extra chromosome to not understand this.

[Vydor_HC]

It's only fair to have evidence before you accuse someone of something.

 

The evidence is all around in this thread and others...how the "miscreants" are treated by the so called "elite" raiders. Reading these forums will show you all the evidence needed.

[Excedrin]

Yeah, the personal log right? Which is different than what is being argued here. This thread has veered away from the OP quite a bit.

 

What the hell? So you're fine with combat logs, but so long as no one can see what you're doing. The moment people want to see what you're doing, they're probably bad at this game.

 

Right.

 

Well, I think that pretty much sums this up.

[Vydor_HC]

Let me know when you have cleared all raiding content, from normal to nightmare, without you or anyone in your raid ever using meters or combat logs.

 

Just because the top 1%, the super amazing and hardcore guilds did it doesn't mean everyone can. You really have to have been born with an extra chromosome to not understand this.

 

If you wanna rely on combat parsers to show you the way thru the encounters and continue to think of yourself as a good player, that's your prerogative. Not a view that I share.

[Excedrin]

Bioware, could you remove tooltips please as they encourage elitism. I don't want people min/maxing, thanks. We don't need the tooltips and if you do you're bad.

[Vydor_HC]

What the hell? So you're fine with combat logs, but so long as no one can see what you're doing. The moment people want to see what you're doing, they're probably bad at this game.

 

Right.

 

Well, I think that pretty much sums this up.

 

Yup, I'm the bad one. Pretty much sums up my entire argument of how this tool is used as a destructive tool rather than a positive one.

[TItanten]

The fact that there are some people who are horrible at raiding, poor at raiding, average at raiding, good at raiding, excellent at raiding, and so on regardless of how long they play means that IT TAKES SKILL. Doesn't have to take much, but there is skill involved.

 

Fine, fine. You have me there.

 

It does take skill to not stand in the bright glowing color on the ground that makes your character die; otherwise known as fire.

 

Granted the skills required are less than that of a NES game.

 

MMO raiding (WoW style in-particular) is not difficult.

 

Strategically: Pick a game in the Civilization series, X-Com, etc. Standing in the fire pales in comparison.

 

Twitch-based difficulty: Contra and Super Mario Bros on the NES are far more skill intensive.

 

Squad dynamics: Pick an FPS, probably Battlefield 3.

 

 

But, yes, I realize that beating an enrage timer is very difficult and you need to have a degree in calculus to determine whether or not everyone in your raid is up to the task.

[Excedrin]

Yup, I'm the bad one. Pretty much sums up my entire argument of how this tool is used as a destructive tool rather than a positive one.

 

I didn't say you're bad, I'm not making any evaluation of your skill because I do not care and I do not have the information necessary. I'm saying that your statement that combat logs are fine, so long as they're private, and wanting to see group performance makes you a bad player, is just ludicrous.

 

It's so obvious that you aren't confident in your own performance that it hurts. I don't see why your solution is to blind everyone instead of strengthen your confidence.

[Devorin_Sargothi]

Didnt answer my question. I know there are and will be enrage bosses. My question is, are people doing it without any meters, right now? You dont need a DPS guage to do it, you need the correct amount of collective DPS. IF by some chance someone is doing really bad at DPS, they have their own personal information there to to see and improve upon it. He practices, looks it up online, next time the guild comes through and moves on.

 

I see absolutely no reason to bring down the entire community by another level for a tool that is only really helpful (not necessary) for a handful of bosses in the game. If anything they should include it for those specific boss fights only.

 

And if he decides to lie and say he's doing enough damage, how do we know different? And how does preventing the flow of information help the community?

 

I see no legitimate reason to hide your combat log. I'm will to respect that desire anyway, but not if you want to group with me.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Devorin_Sargothi

[Kabjat]

If you wanna rely on combat parsers to show you the way thru the encounters and continue to think of yourself as a good player, that's your prerogative. Not a view that I share.

 

in NO WAY do combat parsers even come CLOSE to showing raiders the 'way through' an encounter. If that is what you think they do, then I wonder why you are even expressing your opinion here, as by your statement I can only assume you have never before raided.

[Hairless]

But, yes, I realize that beating an enrage timer is very difficult and you need to have a degree in calculus to determine whether or not everyone in your raid is up to the task.

 

Why would any kind of math skill be needed? That's what Recount or log parsing is for. Programs do it for us so we don't have to. Nobody does any manual math except the theorycrafters.

[Setanian]

What the hell? So you're fine with combat logs, but so long as no one can see what you're doing. The moment people want to see what you're doing, they're probably bad at this game.

 

Right.

 

Well, I think that pretty much sums this up.

 

The *big* problem I have in all of this is not that I'm some top guild and the RL wants to tell me I'm slacking tonight. It's that everyone will depend on these meters for everything from simple group missions to end-game raids.

 

And WoW is proof enough that these add-ons, meters and whatever else ruin the entire community. But from what I read here, again, like WoW, people are only interested in themselves not others, and certainly not, the community at large.

 

I've raid in a guild top 5 in the world without any meters, without any add-ons, and contrary to some, I believe it takes a whole lot more skill.

 

This will all lead to cookie-builds, with cookie-rotations and like wow, a bunch of players that cannot play the game as it was given without all these tools to help them play.

 

I really don't care if you get your help-me-to-play meters or not. I certainly have no interest in playing/raiding with robots who cannot think for themselves.

[Vydor_HC]

I didn't say you're bad, I'm not making any evaluation of your skill because I do not care and I do not have the information necessary. I'm saying that your statement that combat logs are fine, so long as they're private, and wanting to see group performance makes you a bad player, is just ludicrous.

 

It's so obvious that you aren't confident in your own performance that it hurts. I don't see why your solution is to blind everyone instead of strengthen your confidence.

 

I'm not trying or advocating hiding anything. My stance is these tools are 1. not needed and 2. used as a destructive weapon in the game to exclude people rather than include them.

 

And I don't need people claiming that the bad people only use the tools inproperly, when the evidence is all around with all the put downs and name calling of those that do not agree with parsers on how the people that support them really view their fellow gamers.

[Excedrin]

The *big* problem I have in all of this is not that I'm some top guild and the RL wants to tell me I'm slacking tonight. It's that everyone will depend on these meters for everything from simple group missions to end-game raids.

 

And WoW is proof enough that these add-ons, meters and whatever else ruin the entire community. But from what I read here, again, like WoW, people are only interested in themselves not others, and certainly not, the community at large.

 

I've raid in a guild top 5 in the world without any meters, without any add-ons, and contrary to some, I believe it takes a whole lot more skill.

 

This will all lead to cookie-builds, with cookie-rotations and like wow, a bunch of players that cannot play the game as it was given without all these tools to help them play.

 

I really don't care if you get your help-me-to-play meters or not. I certainly have no interest in playing/raiding with robots who cannot think for themselves.

 

Dude, if you were as good as you say you are you'd know all this is already possible because people have access to the information in the tooltips. Min/max takes place independent of combat logs.

 

No, I can play this game "as given" but it's a needless hassle and I want the needless hassle removed. People crying that they might be left out in the cold because they can't play decent really does not tug on my heartstrings. They should find other people and do easier content.

 

This thread is insane.

[Vydor_HC]

in NO WAY do combat parsers even come CLOSE to showing raiders the 'way through' an encounter. If that is what you think they do, then I wonder why you are even expressing your opinion here, as by your statement I can only assume you have never before raided.

 

Yeah, they aren't the step by step guide, but they do provide the information that is substantially more beneficial to figuring out how to defeat the boss. That information isn't required to have....it's merely convenient to have.

[Devorin_Sargothi]

I'm not trying or advocating hiding anything. My stance is these tools are 1. not needed and 2. used as a destructive weapon in the game to exclude people rather than include them.

 

And I don't need people claiming that the bad people only use the tools inproperly, when the evidence is all around with all the put downs and name calling of those that do not agree with parsers on how the people that support them really view their fellow gamers.

 

Are you still on with this anti-intellectualism? You have an ignore list if people are mean to you. Stop demanding BW take revenge by banning the combat log.

[Hairless]

This will all lead to cookie-builds, with cookie-rotations and like wow, a bunch of players that cannot play the game as it was given without all these tools to help them play.

 

What tool do you need to use cookie cutter builds and cookie cutter rotations?

 

It's so hard to copy a spec off a website?

It's so hard to memorize a simple DPS rotation consisting of 3 spells with one spell that is usually just spammed for the most part?

 

When people have already figured out the best spec and rotation, it MAKES THINGS EASIER FOR THE NOOBS. You don't need any tools to figure the stuff out because OTHER PEOPLE DID IT ALREADY.

[Vydor_HC]

Are you still on with this anti-intellectualism? You have an ignore list if people are mean to you. Stop demanding BW take revenge by banning the combat log.

 

Nah, I just prefer not to see destructive additions added to the game. Especially ones that are superfluous. If you can prove to me that end game content will be impossible to do without it, I'd agree with you, they are needed.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[Setanian]

And if he decides to lie and say he's doing enough damage, how do we know different? And how does preventing the flow of information help the community?

 

I see no legitimate reason to hide your combat log. I'm will to respect that desire anyway, but not if you want to group with me.

 

I can turn that around and say if you cannot learn to play without add-ons and meters you're not grouping with me. I want to play with players who can think for themselves and react to situations in the raid by simply looking at a mobs health. I don't want to raid with a bunch of beginners who cannot do anything except read everyones combat logs to see what they're doing and if they are doing it as stated by some interwebz site.

 

The truth is, without someone making an add-in for you that shows you numbers you can't play. End of story. You are incapable of going around some mobs and testing your dos against them and figuring out your own set of numbers.

 

You'd rather be given all the cookie-cutter specs and rotations and figures and them claim hero status and belittle everyone else that does not, or cannot, match the cookie-cutter class configuration you have deemed the "pwnz all"..

[Devorin_Sargothi]

Nah, I just prefer not to see destructive additions added to the game.

 

There's nothing destructive about addons, parsers, minmaxing or powergaming. If you don't want to use them, you don't have to. You can go 2 man content with your spouse and anyone else who wants to come along, and I promise we won't come pee on your spaceship.

[Setanian]

Dude, if you were as good as you say you are you'd know all this is already possible because people have access to the information in the tooltips. Min/max takes place independent of combat logs.

 

No, I can play this game "as given" but it's a needless hassle and I want the needless hassle removed. People crying that they might be left out in the cold because they can't play decent really does not tug on my heartstrings. They should find other people and do easier content.

 

This thread is insane.

 

So it's a needless hassle to play SW:ToR as it is and you need to be helped? Ok.