ironix Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Never mind guys, he pulled an emotional trump card so we all lose the argument forever. Now we can't argue against him without being cruel to women. Too bad, I wish I could've found a way to play the image of a woman in tears to support my argument. It really cuts down on having to prove anything. I was thinking it, but you said it. >.> That is, however, the first time I've ever heard of DPS meters being used to bring someone to tears though. Did they hound the poor woman? One thing that wasn't actually mentioned though, could have it actually been her healing output that was the issue? That actually reminds me of a girl that used to raid with my guild years ago. We wish she didn't raid with us, but we were all too nice to remove her from the group. For you see, whenever her performance was brought up in reference to boss fights we were having trouble with, she'd more often than not become overly emotional. In the end we simply carried her through content in an effort to avoid her overly emotional nature. Everyone became more and more resentful of this woman. It actually became the death of the guild as people left for greener and less emotional pastures. I think I forgot what my point was with all this. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnerous Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Quit pugging hard content. Jesus, it's like you guys don't actually have guilds of people you've known more than 3 minutes in game. If you're doing content that actually needs the extra 3-5% damage a combat logger would enable you should know your raid members well enough to realize they're not complete morons. And wiping once on a flashpoint boss is not the end of the world. Suggest to the group a way to improve and beat him the 2nd attempt. You guys spend all day on the forums, your time is not that valuable. You can spend 5 minutes a day interacting with other players. It won't kill you. you know there are players out there how can make the easiest content really hard? and if everyone has a guild why not a combatlog? or do your own guild flame you for subpar dps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Lies. There were far more serious raiding games than WOW before addons were even thought about (or bannable offenses). Quit trying to falsely correlate Bots and things like ShowEQ with "lua-style" addons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimbotcfg Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 No you just proved my point...."we're all scaremongers who tell lies." No sense in continuing with someone who has already made up their mind is all. Still nothing solid. I'm actually all ears, I've lurked in a lot of these threads and posted in a few too and I've yet to have someone actually give a reasoned argument for not having them. All I've seen is charachter attacks, belittling, trolling comments and "It will destroy the game cause I said so, I don't have any proof but it will". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tahana Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Quit pugging hard content. Jesus, it's like you guys don't actually have guilds of people you've known more than 3 minutes in game. If you're doing content that actually needs the extra 3-5% damage a combat logger would enable you should know your raid members well enough to realize they're not complete morons. And wiping once on a flashpoint boss is not the end of the world. Suggest to the group a way to improve and beat him the 2nd attempt. You guys spend all day on the forums, your time is not that valuable. You can spend 5 minutes a day interacting with other players. It won't kill you. This was a point I was trying to make earlier, but alps completely missed the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kesitah Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Quit pugging hard content. Why? I actually find it fun to play in a group where I "need to pull the full weight" ocassionally, so I sometimes PUG. Or I just want to revisit an "old" raid instance (which the guild no longer plays). Or I play an alt in a guild where only "main characters should raid". Also even in a guildraid "optimization" is an interesting thing. Very often some people are repeatedly (the same two people or such) doing sort of a "dps contest" how they fare in comparision in a friendly (!) competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I mean yeah doing that for the bulk of you audience instead of truning out raid after raid (like every other MMO) would be a bad Idea... It actually is quite a bad idea. A game cannot be balanced and designed around the concept of sub-optimal play. It just isn't coherent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorin_Sargothi Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) No, because of the meter, my wife was brought to tears. I know there are positives that could be gained and if the positives outweighed the negatives I'd be all for the tool. But I've seen enough to know it's the negative impact on the game that takes precedence....as a result, I do not support stuff being added to the game. In the end, content will still be completed without such a tool. True elite gamers have always figured out the big bosses without tools which trivialize the encounters. I'm sorry your wife had to learn first hand that the internet is a vile, uncaring place. I'd add something snarky here, but I've lost the desire to. Blaming a tool for someone's behavior is nonsensical. It's like blaming Ford for drunk drivers. Sure, there would be no DUI charges without cars, but that wouldn't really do much to help alcoholics. A jerk is going to be a jerk whether he's using a parser or not. Edited January 11, 2012 by Devorin_Sargothi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnerous Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Boss died, loot was won, who gives a ****. and if the boss doesnt die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scubamonk Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Also, expanding on my earlier post. Without concrete data healers tend to get blamed for everything. Why? Because dps/tanks don't always realize they are standing in the fire, standing too close to someone else and spreading the damage, etc. If they did realize it, they wouldn't be doing it. I hate to beat a dead horse, but especially as a healer I get blamed for everything anyway. I've always found it incredibly helpful to show people "No you died because you were taking avoidable damage." Just pointing out to most people that their death was their fault and they get upset, tell you to learn 2 heal and whatnot. Basically all the abuse you dps fear gets shifted to the healer because without a way to prove otherwise people are rarely able to objectively look at themselves and admit they made a mistake and then shift all the blame outward, at me, the poor healer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Why would you want to be friends with jerks? Why would you want to help jerks succeed? Go find some good people to play with and have fun. They had never behaved poorly in the past. Who's to say they would have never behaved in that manner if not for the tool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 This was a point I was trying to make earlier, but alps completely missed the post. Quit throwing up red herrings. I'm asserting that I have the right to know any combat data going on in my area. Allowing you to perform combat that I'm mysteriously unable to "read" is asinine. This is the sum and total of my position on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneedan Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 So there are people playing this game, that then look at rows and rows of numbers in order to make a choice about how to play the game in the future, or who to group with. I didn't know that people would actually do that! I admit I must be a very casual player, I log on, have a laugh with mates, if i die in pvp c'est la vive, get some levels (not anywhere near capped yet) and then log off. When I log off there is no way I would spend my time looking at lots of numbers, I am far too busy looking at lots of numbers at work earning lots and lots of numbers :-) reading, cycling, spending time with my wife and child and generally having fun! Clearly I will never be hardcore and my toon name is Kneedan so any of you leet players that want to use little numbers to judge others can put me on your ignore list now I'm the one sipping an expensive merlot playing in my study, in my rather large house i got from looking at little numbers at work :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I'm sorry your wife had to learn first hand that the internet is a vile, uncaring place. I'd add something snarky here, but I've lost the desire to. Blaming a tool for someone behavior is nonsensical. It's like blaming Ford for drunk drivers. Sure, there would be no DUI charges without cars, but that wouldn't really do much to help alcoholics. A jerk is going to be a jerk whether he's using a parser or not. Oh, I blame the people for sure, they used the tool in the manner in which I see it generally used. It's not a required tool, the game doesn't need it. And it destroys more than it builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 They had never behaved poorly in the past. Who's to say they would have never behaved in that manner if not for the tool? The arrogant social engineering of the ant-meter lobby rises to the top again and again. You feel like you have the right to engineer our behavior. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) So there are people playing this game, that then look at rows and rows of numbers in order to make a choice about how to play the game in the future, or who to group with. I didn't know that people would actually do that! I admit I must be a very casual player, I log on, have a laugh with mates, if i die in pvp c'est la vive, get some levels (not anywhere near capped yet) and then log off. When I log off there is no way I would spend my time looking at lots of numbers, I am far too busy looking at lots of numbers at work earning lots and lots of numbers :-) reading, cycling, spending time with my wife and child and generally having fun! Clearly I will never be hardcore and my toon name is Kneedan so any of you leet players that want to use little numbers to judge others can put me on your ignore list now I'm the one sipping an expensive merlot playing in my study, in my rather large house i got from looking at little numbers at work :-) The "I have a life" argument, variation #49712. *yawn* Got anything else? Edited January 11, 2012 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneedan Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 you have to admit though, it is true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jett-Rinn Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 It actually is quite a bad idea. A game cannot be balanced and designed around the concept of sub-optimal play. It just isn't coherent. Sub Optimal play? What about going on adventures with your friends? Wow...it's just the entire spreadsheet mindset. You know I first knew the genre was about to change a couple years back at GDC; when Rob Pardo lamented about all the work that went into Dungeons that were just ignored because the atmosphere and the heart that the developers poured into it had nothing to do with the numbers. I seriously don't think you are going to enjoy what's in store for MMo's in the next five years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tahana Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Quit throwing up red herrings. I'm asserting that I have the right to know any combat data going on in my area. Allowing you to perform combat that I'm mysteriously unable to "read" is asinine. This is the sum and total of my position on this issue. Go read this post.. and turn off your jerk mode.. k 2nd post from the bottom of the page. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=161869&page=19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
excentric Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 So there are people playing this game, that then look at rows and rows of numbers in order to make a choice about how to play the game in the future, or who to group with. I didn't know that people would actually do that! I admit I must be a very casual player, I log on, have a laugh with mates, if i die in pvp c'est la vive, get some levels (not anywhere near capped yet) and then log off. When I log off there is no way I would spend my time looking at lots of numbers, I am far too busy looking at lots of numbers at work earning lots and lots of numbers :-) reading, cycling, spending time with my wife and child and generally having fun! Clearly I will never be hardcore and my toon name is Kneedan so any of you leet players that want to use little numbers to judge others can put me on your ignore list now I'm the one sipping an expensive merlot playing in my study, in my rather large house i got from looking at little numbers at work :-) +1 for writing your daily routine, but it really doesn't bring anything to this discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 This is the fault of your wife failing at something, not the meter. The group will have likely got a healer that could cope and killed the boss. Bingo. And instead of using the tool to be productive and help players get better, it was used for just the opposite, to make players feel worse about themselves. Which is how this tool is used. It's exclusionary, and destructive more than the opposite. It's not needed at all, the negatives in my view far outweigh the positives. And not just in the effect on the community and players, but that's enough for me to no be supportive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TItanten Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I personally hope that in the end, raid mechanics will include some random (hard) puzzles, possibly happening while the boss is hitting your group, all while putting a heavy strain on your resources. That way, recount and all this bull makes little difference, if you can't solve your puzzle in time, you'll run out of juice and die. Complicated low toleration dungeon mechanics beat 0-toleration boss fights in difficulty any day, because multitasking an extra problem is just that much harder. Yes! Give me a boss that will just do random stuff all day long! I'm serious. Give me stuff that can't be easily wikied! I REALLY want a boss where the best description would be "Okay guys, pay attention, we don't know what he's going to do, but react the best you can." You can have some pattern to it, like have it change every raid reset. But maybe 5-6 phases with 6+ variable patterns. Like a General Greivous type boss: Phase 1: He starts off by either attacking with a single saber needing to be tanked by knight, a blaster which means a vanguard would have to get agro (or maybe he would start shooting healers and have a healing only agro table), could be in a speeder making high speed bombing runs (flight phase) (no agro, just a dps race) Phase 2: Pulls out multiple sabers and has to be kited; Sets up bombs to be defused; calls adds; Or any of phase 1. Phase 3: Tank n' Spank; Soft enrage; or Interrupt phase (random instant death if not). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironix Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Lies. There were far more serious raiding games than WOW before addons were even thought about (or bannable offenses). Please stop spreading ignorance about addons. Addons require the game developer to make public an API for addon developers to make use of. To lump addons with external programs that manipulate the game is only helping further the ignorance of the anti addons/macros crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vydor_HC Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 The arrogant social engineering of the ant-meter lobby rises to the top again and again. You feel like you have the right to engineer our behavior. Why? Wow, what an ignorant interpretation of what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneedan Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 again I admit I bought very little to the discussion, but maybe the discussion had borne little fruit anyway so my own little addition was in no way better or worse than any others. But thanks for thinking I have a nice routine, I rather enjoy it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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