Assassin VS Operative?

[Fairell]

Ok, you can have Ops openeing burst, but Ops get your damage mitigation, Knockbacks, and or a gap closer sound fair?

 

what damage mitigation are you talking about? you have better mitigation tools than a sin. resilience/force shroud? you can have that as soon as my project will hit instant like shock. it wont help you then. you want force speed? you can have it even though your vanish has it already.

 

deception/infiltration sin is halfass designed and worse than any other class for GROUP pvp.period

 

stance dance is trash enough, as it gimps your dps without giving much benefit. but you cant do even that since this s.hit costs 50 force

Edited January 11, 2012 by Fairell

[sildoor]

Ok, you can have Ops openeing burst, but Ops get your damage mitigation, Knockbacks, and or a gap closer sound fair?

 

we got 1 gapcloser and lower damage mitigation then u and 1 knockback ,., this is as a DPS speced shadow ..

 

sure we get forcepull and some other nice stuff as a tank .. but

 

 

operators are not tank so Im comparing the dps speced shadow to a dps speced operator

 

where shadow does everything a operator does but worse ..

 

only fair thing is that u can heal and we can tount ,,

[Rizzit]

OP is right, and several people here have brought up valid points. The Assassin/Shadow is currently a pointless class to play in Deception/Infiltration, or even Balance spec. The only thing they can do better than the Operative/Scoundrel is tank, and that's simply because they have a tank tree while the Op/Scoundrel does not....

 

As a stealthy burst class, I don't think it's necessarily that the Assassin/Shadow fails completely by mechanics, it's simply overshadowed by the Operative/Scoundrel, which does too much. It's not that the Assassin does too little IMO, it's that the Operative does too much, to sum it up.

 

Because really, no class should be able to do what Operatives are doing right now in PvP. Of course people will scoff at that statement, especially if they play Operative/Scoundrel... but again, being able to burst someone down while keeping them CC'd is inherently OP. You need to be able to counter a class by skill, and if you are CC'd the entire time, you can't use any abilities to counter. Surviving an Operative often requires you to have your CC break and trickets up. If an Assassin opens on you with a knockdown, then blows his 4 second stun on you, there's no way he's going to be able to burst you down in that amount of time like an Operative can. That's the way it actually should be... but because there's currently a similar class in the game that CAN burst you down like that, it seems that the Assassin is underpowered/gimped.

 

In reality, the Assassin is pretty balanced as a class, if you look at it on its own merits. But when you see an Operative/Scoundrel, then it's true... what's the point of an Assassin? Right now, there is none... unless you are tank spec. They need to tone down Operatives to the level of Assassins in terms of burst and CC. People might say that's unfair because Operatives don't have an AOE knockback and a speed boost that's as good as the Assassin... but they can also heal themselves. If you toned down the burst of the Operative/Scoundrel and toned down their CC as well, it would be a "hard" nerf for them... and yet it would bring them to balance, not make them useless. It would make them Assassins basically....

 

 

l2p man l2p

[ZakPreston]

Full-Champ Carnage Mara here: being killed by equally geared ops in 10 seconds if I had no trinket or force camo. Insane burst, CC and annoying sound of a clutching knife

[Necrosov]

Yeah so what class can't kill someone in 10 seconds? Maybe a tank or a healer thats about it. Bad players are bad. I've seen every class wreck face in this game when played by an intelligent person. Edited January 11, 2012 by Necrosov

[DaniWes]

On my Sin I have significantly more health, wear a shield, have an Oh Snap 50% defense ability, knockback, force speed and my stun is ranged. My burst dmg is lower than an operative, but my sustained dps is higher. Both classes are fairly equal because of stealth, but their utility varies greatly.

 

When I want to do group PVP my assassin is much better, but when I feel like taking out people 1 v 1, the operative is better.

[aranha]

On my Sin I have significantly more health, wear a shield, have an Oh Snap 50% defense ability, knockback, force speed and my stun is ranged. My burst dmg is lower than an operative, but my sustained dps is higher. Both classes are fairly equal because of stealth, but their utility varies greatly.

 

When I want to do group PVP my assassin is much better, but when I feel like taking out people 1 v 1, the operative is better.

 

You are aware that 80% of PVP damage totally ignores your shield right? Including all OP attacks.

[flooble]

On my Sin I have significantly more health, wear a shield, have an Oh Snap 50% defense ability, knockback, force speed and my stun is ranged. My burst dmg is lower than an operative, but my sustained dps is higher. Both classes are fairly equal because of stealth, but their utility varies greatly.

 

When I want to do group PVP my assassin is much better, but when I feel like taking out people 1 v 1, the operative is better.

 

 

You can guard a healer too rendering them all but impossible to kill for bad players.

[sildoor]

On my Sin I have significantly more health, wear a shield, have an Oh Snap 50% defense ability, knockback, force speed and my stun is ranged. My burst dmg is lower than an operative, but my sustained dps is higher. Both classes are fairly equal because of stealth, but their utility varies greatly.

 

When I want to do group PVP my assassin is much better, but when I feel like taking out people 1 v 1, the operative is better.

 

 

how can your dps be higher when your wearing a shield?

 

and why would u where a shield ? your in one of the 2 dps stance anyway ..

 

and a operator/scoundrel will have the same hp as u unless you geared for more stam on your gear..

 

they got a oh snap 100% defence ability btw (yes its only 3 seconds but its still a good ability and with half the cd that we have it is 6 seconds 100% while we get 12 sec 50% .. )

 

do you normaly do more damage in warzones then ,, say scoundrels/operators ? I dont , and acourding to the shadow part of this forum there are just a few dps shadows who hit over 200k damage after a wz..

[sildoor]

You can guard a healer too rendering them all but impossible to kill for bad players.

 

Can't use guard while using dps stance ..

 

and if you using the tank stance you remove one of your hardest hiting attack not to mention like 10 talent points that do nothing unless your in the dps stance. .

[sildoor]

Assassins are Tank / DPS with stuns, snares, high damage mitigation, knockbacks, lightning, and stealth...

 

Now you want Opening Burst too?

 

If im speced for dps Im not a tank/dps .im a DPS so yes I want the damage out put that I should have when im a light armor stealth dps class .. (low damage mitigation)

[flooble]

I know that, but its a choice available.

 

All this crazy burst is a whole lot less scary if the healer is guarded and the enemy taunted.

[sildoor]

I know that, but its a choice available.

 

All this crazy burst is a whole lot less scary if the healer is guarded and the enemy taunted.

 

same goes other way

 

my "damage" is even less scary when the target is guarded..

 

I dont want higher burst damage I think my burst is fine .. I do however think that shadow's dps need to be higher overall or do something as we are by far the spec with lowest mitigation (light armor, no shield , no absorbations, no heal to talk about)

 

that my biggest concern ,,

 

1 way to fix it is to buff the damage or buff our protection .

 

this is ofc as a dps shadow/assasin ,,

 

it dosent mather if a tank shadow can can guard and got loads of armor etc coz as a dps shadow we have to be in dps stance to use out talent tree.. no one is justifying operators damage by saying they can heal? coz they can't heal+ dps at the same time ..

[MowiOwi]

Although this is a bit off topic (but similar), if you take a look at a lot of the OP threads the top ones "needing" a nerf come down to OP/Scoundrel and Assassin. What I get out of this is that people are really terrible at detecting stealth. I have no idea why this is at all. You can specialize into detecting stealth and blast AoEs all over the place. This is basically the main problem that LoL is having. People are just terrible at killing other people and instead of accepting the fact that they suck they blame it on a particular class being OP.

 

Getting back on topic I find that Assassins and Shadows fill in a more difficult role on the team. You aren't the crazy dps that ops/scoundrels are, but you are (or can be) more tanky and live longer without a healer. Assassins are a very tricky class to play and I think that once people figure the class out it will be a very strong class. I don't have a 50 assassin yet, so with the maturity level on this forum I know everyone will say my opinion is void because, apparently, having a level 50 means you are smarter and a pro. Go figure.

[Chiricahua]

You have just made the case that my favorite class I love to play should not be nerfed - a Jedi Shadow (mirror of Sith Assassin). I want to thank you. I have rolled every class except commando, and the Jedi Shadow is a joy to play. With the guard up, damage, stealth when I want, I consistently get a lot of medals in warzones.

[Masahiko]

Can't use guard while using dps stance ..

 

and if you using the tank stance you remove one of your hardest hiting attack not to mention like 10 talent points that do nothing unless your in the dps stance. .

 

Are you going to sit there and tell me that you dont change to Dark Charge -> Guard -> taunt to save someone? That literally will hsut a dps down thats attacking another person

[Joskara]

how can your dps be higher when your wearing a shield?

 

and why would u where a shield ? your in one of the 2 dps stance anyway ..

 

and a operator/scoundrel will have the same hp as u unless you geared for more stam on your gear..

 

they got a oh snap 100% defence ability btw (yes its only 3 seconds but its still a good ability and with half the cd that we have it is 6 seconds 100% while we get 12 sec 50% .. )

 

do you normaly do more damage in warzones then ,, say scoundrels/operators ? I dont , and acourding to the shadow part of this forum there are just a few dps shadows who hit over 200k damage after a wz..

 

You should go to your trainer and talk about Force Shroud. It is clear that you and many others have no clue about the classes and abilities in this game.

 

An Operative/Scoundrel has 3 seconds to kill you. After that they die by either you or your team.

 

You are not prepared! Sure in world PvP you can be surprised but in a PvP match!

 

I am playing Assassin so dont whine...

 

After the KD use stun and FS. If/when he breaks, slow and kite to death. Break if he uses his slow, it has a 12 sec cd.

[Zhifu]

Are you going to sit there and tell me that you dont change to Dark Charge -> Guard -> taunt to save someone? That literally will hsut a dps down thats attacking another person

 

You do know that is cost 50 force (50% of total pool) to switch stance right? Stance dancing isn't very effective. I'm not saying I don't do it but sometimes I don't have the force to switch stance. This class is very force starved.

[Mursie]

Are you going to sit there and tell me that you dont change to Dark Charge -> Guard -> taunt to save someone? That literally will hsut a dps down thats attacking another person

 

do you know the class?

 

do you realize that flipping a stance costs HALF of your total force pool? that if you are dps'ing anyone.. you likely need to pause just to get your force pool high enough to switch...

 

do you realize that it reduces your dmg bonus by 5%? It Reduces your force breach to 1/5 or more of its total power if you are infiltration spec with exit strategy. It reduces your armor penetration if you spec two points in base level kinetic. It reduces your proc dmg significantly.. and to top it off... when you go to apply guard on the target you want to save... it likely won't apply becuase he's guarded already by some fail on the other side of the map and the game currently doesn't allow anyone else to apply guard until the original is removed?

 

all these poor sobbing ops and their squishy classes. laughable. unless you play a shadow tank... and you're fail already if you do... then you're infiltration dps spec...doing less burst than an op... with squishier light armor... with no heal ability. but hey.. i do get an aoe dmg debuff that last six seconds for all targets within 15meters on a 1 min cooldown....

 

shadow/assassin is a good class... don't get me wrong.. but when ops/scoundrels exist in the game... you're the buick to the operative cadillac.

[cloudxshadowbane]

Although this is a bit off topic (but similar), if you take a look at a lot of the OP threads the top ones "needing" a nerf come down to OP/Scoundrel and Assassin. What I get out of this is that people are really terrible at detecting stealth. I have no idea why this is at all. You can specialize into detecting stealth and blast AoEs all over the place. This is basically the main problem that LoL is having. People are just terrible at killing other people and instead of accepting the fact that they suck they blame it on a particular class being OP.

 

Getting back on topic I find that Assassins and Shadows fill in a more difficult role on the team. You aren't the crazy dps that ops/scoundrels are, but you are (or can be) more tanky and live longer without a healer. Assassins are a very tricky class to play and I think that once people figure the class out it will be a very strong class. I don't have a 50 assassin yet, so with the maturity level on this forum I know everyone will say my opinion is void because, apparently, having a level 50 means you are smarter and a pro. Go figure.

 

if you are seeing a lot of nerf shadow/sin posts than I suggest taking a trip to your nearest lencrafters, I hear they are having a sale too. You could try laser correction but even that probably isn't strong enough for your vision problem/halucinations.

 

The only nerf shadow posts are one from operative/Scound/powertech/VG players because they KNOW their class is OP, easy mode and WILL be nerfed. So they pick a class they KNOW is in NOW WAY overpowered and make a post about it to get the spotlight off them, or at least attempt to and fail miserably except for naive people like you.

 

 

 

As for Shadows DPS spec, it is too RNG and the tree alone is a garbage mix of jumpled crap. RNG with no Auto attack on a melee class? Fail #1. RNG with internal cooldown? Fail #2. Talent that requires 5 stacks for max potential requiring the first RNG with internal CD and low rate to proc 5 times. Fail #3.

Having Armor talents in infiltration tree and project/+ many other damage boost talents in kinetic tree. Fail #4. Backstab ability that costs half force bar and even if cost reduction and armor pen procs it still does like sub 1k non crit.. Fail #5....etc

 

I won't even attempt to make the grocery list for balance tree.

Edited January 11, 2012 by cloudxshadowbane

[Laoi]

First of all, this is not a nerf thread. I simply wish to express in a reasonable, genuine, mature and responsible manner my current thoughts on the above two classes.

 

I play an Assassin, I currently have 11 pieces of Champion Gear and my Valor Rank sits at about 49 currently. I had a 2600 rating in WoWs Arena (so not great, but not bad either) and if you Google my real name, you'd also find out I have competed in multiple countries internationally at a very popular FPS. The only reason I included those, was to provide a decent level of credibility to those who think I'm just another gamer whinging about the game.

 

Now that, that is out of the way, I (and many other Assassins particularly) would like to know what (if anything) is going to be done about Operatives? This thread is NOT a 'nerf' post as already stated, but it seems to me currently that the Operative is a superior version of the Assassin. Which is fine, I have no issues with this if this indeed the way they are meant to be.

 

I know there are ALOT of 'nerf operative' threads, and would like to know what BioWares stance/thoughts are on this? I do think they need a 'fix', but not to the extent where they need a nerf - although I realise the difficulty in balancing them without doing so.

 

I guess, what I'm trying to work out for myself is whether or not I should reroll an IA -> Operative to 50 and PVP with it or continue with my Assassin? If Operatives are performing and operating the way BW intends them to, then it is honestly fine - it's not a big deal, I'll just level an Operative to 50 and PVP with it, but in their current state I cannot continue playing an Assassin as my contribution as one is detrimental to my teams success. Why have a Deception Assassin when they can take an Operative?

 

Thanks to all those who read and respond appropriately and responsibly. I do not want to get Operatives nerfed (or Smugglers for that matter).

 

If I am to take PvP seriously in this game (which I love by the way), pending class changes from Bioware, it seems that my Assassin has been a waste and that an Operative needs to be rolled.

 

I would like other peoples thoughts on this - other Deception Assassins particularly.

 

Thanks

 

well if u feel like u have to play the most overpowered class to be successful then by all means go ahead and roll an operative.

 

i play a sin aswell and personally i enjoy the challenge of playing a subpar class and still do well with it instead of rolling an easymode fotm class every noob can succeed at.

also i have met very few ppl in this game yet who are atleast remotely decent at movement ( or the game in total) so crushing those fotm noobs aint rly a problem.

im pretty sure that operatives will get nerfed at some point but honestly i dont rly care.

 

but then again the choice is yours.

[MowiOwi]

if you are seeing a lot of nerf shadow/sin posts than I suggest taking a trip to your nearest lencrafters, I hear they are having a sale too. You could try laser correction but even that probably isn't strong enough for your vision problem/halucinations.

 

The only nerf shadow posts are one from operative/Scound/powertech/VG players because they KNOW their class is OP, easy mode and WILL be nerfed. So they pick a class they KNOW is in NOW WAY overpowered and make a post about it to get the spotlight off them, or at least attempt to and fail miserably except for naive people like you.

 

I guess I need to be more specific in my posts so that someone with your intelligence level can understand. No kidding. You're a smart one, aren't you?

 

Posts =/= topics. Now that that is squared away I suppose I have to explain even more. Because there are so many operative/scoundrel OP threads, they in turn say Assassins and shadows are OP, which means, by the sheer number of op/scoundrel OP threads that assassins/shadows are called OP often.

 

Hopefully you can now understand this. If not, have a nice life. I've been told that if you aren't smart you have to go through life being tough. I doubt you are either, but hopefully it works out for you.

Edited January 11, 2012 by MowiOwi

[sildoor]

You should go to your trainer and talk about Force Shroud. It is clear that you and many others have no clue about the classes and abilities in this game.

 

An Operative/Scoundrel has 3 seconds to kill you. After that they die by either you or your team.

 

You are not prepared! Sure in world PvP you can be surprised but in a PvP match!

 

I am playing Assassin so dont whine...

 

After the KD use stun and FS. If/when he breaks, slow and kite to death. Break if he uses his slow, it has a 12 sec cd.

 

an avrage geared operative/scoundrel will kill my 14k hp while im stunned happend to many times for me to count ,, im valor 49 atm got centruion/champion gear.

 

If he's crap yes I will survive his burst and and stun him , use my force shroud to remove his dot and stun/low slash him and then start build up my 2 cc to Recklessness/Force Potency pop artifact pop a power adrenaline and use projekt/Shock and force breach/Discharge and then the execute ability...

 

or just slow him and try and kite him .. thats to risky as he will just pop his emergency stealth and your to far away to use any aoe to get him out of it.

 

or use my own emergency combat stealth and run away like a coward..

 

but 70% im dead or so close to dead after his burst that I go down before I can get away anything ..

 

compare your damage output and your protection as a dps shadow/assasin to the other dps classes in the game and u will see that we are weak ..

 

we are however good as tank/dps spec..

[sildoor]

Are you going to sit there and tell me that you dont change to Dark Charge -> Guard -> taunt to save someone? That literally will hsut a dps down thats attacking another person

 

say I got 100 force .. whats best use 50% of it to change stance 1gcd then use guard on target and then 1 gcd to taunt the target ,,.

 

is it not easier to just stun him , and then nuke him with taunt on him ? that way I and the one im saving wont take damage ,, or maybe stun him and then nuke a bit and then use low slash and then knockhimback etc etc ... -.-

[Babyfood]

so in the final analysis ops/scoundrel burst dmg is op