Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[oflow]

I've been posting in these threads since the third page of the original post.

 

I dont really have an issue with delay but I do have an issue with abilities not firing after being activated. I've experimented with 4 different classes all above level 20 and they all experience the same issue.

 

Through a lot of experiementing I have determined that instant abilities used after using an ability thats not on the GCD will often not fire. They will reset the GCD but do nothing. A prime example is using overload saber then using zealous strike or using force sweep then using riposte. If the abilities do fire, they actually sometimes 'stutter' or 'double clutch' before going off. It has nothing to do with spamming the buttons either, since I have tried it just testing it standing still and it still happens. Blade Storm is an exaample of an ability that does this, you will constantly 'check swing' before the animation goes off, which is terrible for a directional attack in pvp.

 

Having tried lots and lots of different fixes, I just feel the issue is the the way the game is designed and probably cant be fixed any time soon. It has nothing to do with spamming buttons or waiting for animations to finish, its a server client sync issue. I have also noticed that the game gets out of sync more if you click abilities rather than use keybinds. This is why I think some fanbois say they dont have the issue and continue to troll these threads trying to derail them.

 

I actually went out and bought a Naga mouse just to see if it made the issue stop happening and to a degree it does, which means that there is also an issue with how the interface action bars work as well. Theres obviously something wrong with them too based on how skills often dont drop into the frames unless placed exactly on them, its almost like the buttons themselves are out of alignment.

 

After reading the high rez texture thread, the creator of the thread found dlls in the game files that are some sort of charater model copy protection that basically is requiring the client to send extra steps when it communicates with the server. Basically instead of just sending your action, its sending a security verification that the server has to reply to before it sends your action. I am sure this is a big part of what is causing the game to be out of sync, and it actually is worse in pvp because your client has to verify multiple characters with multiple clients which makes it easier for the clients and servers to get out of sync.

 

On top of this, there is also an issue with the way they did the GCD in this game because it is affected by defensive animations which also throw the game out of sync. As a tank you can be effectively stunlocked by your own defensive animations which is just bad design.

 

My main is a JK Guardian, and trying to tank with abilities that dont work is terrible. Its not fun and stressful. I will probably cap this character and my Sage since they are close to 50 just in case they do actually have a fix, but after Feb I will probably be cancelling my account because the game just really isnt in a state where I can play and its not fun fighting against the UI just to control my character.

 

I honestly hope they do fix the issue, because if they do I would enjoy playing the game and probably stay subbed for a long time, the actual cost isnt an isssue to me. But I have a feeling just by the lack of honest feedback in these forums and the responses the developers give on other sites that they dont really have a fix for these issues and are basically BSing to keep people subbed to the game when they know its broken. Especially when many of these issues where brought up in the beta and they ignored them then just like they do now.

 

There is no talk of this issue (which is the biggest issue in the game by far IMHO) on the PTR forums, which means there isnt a fix for this issue in the near future.

 

As the saying goes, gives them enough rope and they will hang themselves with it. Well, BW seems to be believing the fanboi hype and dont seem to think these issues are a real threat to the life of their game. With D3, GW2, Tera, Firefall, ArcheAge and a bunch of other games on the horizon, they have to know the writing is on the wall.

[Scyo]

I play an Assassin. There is absolutely no ability delay whatsoever. Every ability fires the instant I press the button. There is no waiting to finish an animation. Animations in general take never longer than a GCD, so there isn't even an overlap possible. Stuff which is off the GCD interestingly goes of instantly, no matter what my character is doing at that specific moment.

There's only one tiny problem: it's not possible to"pre-cast" a free targeted aoe ability as long as the GCD hasn't finished. It's annoying, because you lose the time you need to place the reticle, rather than firing it off the instant the GCD finishes. But that's not delay, it's a small flaw in the general design.

 

I can't speak for other classes above 10 though, besides that I experienced some weird behaviour with the Agent and his cover, but that was in beta. So I can't comment on anything else besides the Assassin for the moment.

 

Based on my observations I'd guess that there is no general ability delay, but rather a problem with some select abilities. Judging from the sheep effect on the official forums I deem it rather possible that the problem got, like all the other ones, blown way way out of proportion. Now you have the situation where all the rabbid followers, with absolutely no clue what ability delay/lag really would look like, are crying and stomping like little cry babies, demanding something fixed that isn't nearly as broken as they make it look.

 

If you read too much into all the rage you can easily get sucked into it. I speak from experience, because after not playing for a few days and taking part in the discussion about the high texture detail problem, I started to believe that the game indeed would look like utter crap. In reality though, if you play with everything maxed and some AA mixed into it, the game simply looks gorgeous. Yes, if you look too close textures get blurry. In reality though you would only zoom in that close to make screenshots that you gonna use to complain about the texture quality on the forums anyway. Of course it would be preffered to have the best possible textures available in general. But the current state is in no way as bad as the clowns on this forum are making it look.

[Tukat]

I play an Assassin. There is absolutely no ability delay whatsoever. Every ability fires the instant I press the button. There is no waiting to finish an animation. Animations in general take never longer than a GCD, so there isn't even an overlap possible. Stuff which is off the GCD interestingly goes of instantly, no matter what my character is doing at that specific moment.

There's only one tiny problem: it's not possible to"pre-cast" a free targeted aoe ability as long as the GCD hasn't finished. It's annoying, because you lose the time you need to place the reticle, rather than firing it off the instant the GCD finishes. But that's not delay, it's a small flaw in the general design.

 

I can't speak for other classes above 10 though, besides that I experienced some weird behaviour with the Agent and his cover, but that was in beta. So I can't comment on anything else besides the Assassin for the moment.

 

Based on my observations I'd guess that there is no general ability delay, but rather a problem with some select abilities. Judging from the sheep effect on the official forums I deem it rather possible that the problem got, like all the other ones, blown way way out of proportion. Now you have the situation where all the rabbid followers, with absolutely no clue what ability delay/lag really would look like, are crying and stomping like little cry babies, demanding something fixed that isn't nearly as broken as they make it look.

 

If you read too much into all the rage you can easily get sucked into it. I speak from experience, because after not playing for a few days and taking part in the discussion about the high texture detail problem, I started to believe that the game indeed would look like utter crap. In reality though, if you play with everything maxed and some AA mixed into it, the game simply looks gorgeous. Yes, if you look too close textures get blurry. In reality though you would only zoom in that close to make screenshots that you gonna use to complain about the texture quality on the forums anyway. Of course it would be preffered to have the best possible textures available in general. But the current state is in no way as bad as the clowns on this forum are making it look.

 

 

 

 

 

Bioware

 

"This issue is under active investigation.

 

The complication is that there are actually a number of different issues with very different causes and potential resolutions lumped together in this thread.

 

All we can say for now is 'we are actively working on the topic of character responsiveness'."

 

Georg "Observer" Zoeller

Principal Lead Combat Designer

[Scyo]

Bioware

 

"This issue is under active investigation.

 

The complication is that there are actually a number of different issues with very different causes and potential resolutions lumped together in this thread.

 

All we can say for now is 'we are actively working on the topic of character responsiveness'."

 

Georg "Observer" Zoeller

Principal Lead Combat Designer

Yeah, investigating something doesn't mean that the problem is of the same proportion as the herd makes it look like.

[Ansultares]

After reading the high rez texture thread, the creator of the thread found dlls in the game files that are some sort of charater model copy protection that basically is requiring the client to send extra steps when it communicates with the server. Basically instead of just sending your action, its sending a security verification that the server has to reply to before it sends your action. I am sure this is a big part of what is causing the game to be out of sync, and it actually is worse in pvp because your client has to verify multiple characters with multiple clients which makes it easier for the clients and servers to get out of sync.

If this is true that would be absolutely terrible.

 

On top of this, there is also an issue with the way they did the GCD in this game because it is affected by defensive animations which also throw the game out of sync. As a tank you can be effectively stunlocked by your own defensive animations which is just bad design.

I can't believe this even made it live. I can't believe this even made it very far off the design board. It didn't take me very long to realize this would/is happening, even at the paltry 11% defense rate I had as a low level jugg.

[Tukat]

Yeah, investigating something doesn't mean that the problem is of the same proportion as the herd makes it look like.

 

 

 

 

You should be at such a seminar for the new church jesus at the moment hallelula of the sect ting

Edited January 14, 2012 by Tukat

[Scyo]

You should be at such a seminar for the new church jesus at the moment hallelula of the sect ting

I have no clue what you're trying to tell me.

 

I get that you don't get what I said though. I try to elaborate:

 

- Yes there seem to be some problems.

- Because of the natural dynamics of raging internet masses (not unlike religious zealots) the problems got blown way out of proportion.

 

The end.

[Xcore]

I'm going to assume notes aren't up to date, lying in an interview is pretty inexcusable - unless an outstanding explanation is provided not long after...

 

I don't believe in hunting down developers interviews across the net... if they have something to say to the community "here" is the place... "these forums" you know.

 

Pretty appalled by Bioware's handling of not only this issue but general communication.

[Halacs]

I don't believe in hunting down developers interviews across the net... if they have something to say to the community "here" is the place... "these forums" you know.

 

Pretty appalled by Bioware's handling of not only this issue but general communication.

 

Can't say I'm liking where this is going either.

[Xcore]

Update: Ability Delay & Character Responsiveness

 

The video is in the works and I am dedicating as much time as I can to it, the reason for the lengthy delay is simply that it will not be 1-2min video but a real analysis of the problems and ramifications.

 

So until then, I'd like to release a little preview video, just to prove that I am on it and because it was fun to make. I hope you enjoy it for what its worth.

 

Preview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVFNpTxOH7c

 

 

 

 

Also, here you can see the actual work in progress (for those who care):

 

Ability Delay & Avatar Responsiveness

 

1) Short Introduction to Threadline and topic of discussion

2) Start with Positives -- SW:TOR Instants/No GCD Success!

 

Sequence: (1) -- Showcasing examples of failure to trigger as well as delay

 

Ability failures to trigger even though it is "not" on CD, GCD is "not" in effect, there is "no" other ability being channeled or cast and all ability requirements are met.

 

Showcase smooth (instant) WoW ability executions under any circumstances.

 

Sequence: (2) -- Ultimate effect of delay in PvP

 

SW:TOR Warzone footage, showcase ability delay/execution delay and how it affects fluidity in PvP.

 

WoW BG Footage, showcase effect of instant ability executions without delay and distinguish differences in fluid/seamless gameplay.

 

Sequence: (3) -- Ultimate effect of delay in PvE

 

WoW competitive footage, showcase necessity of perfect responsiveness and its effect on tuning a goo endgame (PvE and PvP Interactions).

 

SW:TOR Rotation, showcase visual and feedback sluggishness, feeling of "lag in response", feeling of disconnect from Avatar.

 

WoW "The Dummy Movement Test", showcase (Emphasize Importance of) full movement with target swapping and ability exections.

 

WoW "Caster and Hunter" rotations, showcase smoothness of rotation chaining "Casted and Instants" as well as "Procs". (Emphasize Importance)

 

Sequence: (4) -- Ultimate effect on Healing

 

WoW Healing footage, emphasize on the "need" for responsiveness to healers for movement and chaining of "Casted" abilities with "Instant" abilities

 

Sequence: (5) -- Animations, clipping, aesthetics, importance of "perfect" visual feedback

 

WoW animations example, showcase "ugly"/simple/quick animations in rogue/melee rotation.

 

WoW animation example, showcase "procs" and "instant execution" of non GCD/Instants in animation.

 

SW:TOR animation example, showcase "nice"/elaborate/long animations

 

SW:TOR animation example, showcase "procs" and success as well as failure due to size of animation.

 

Sequence: (6) -- Importance of Perfection, attention to detail in feedback - Animation/Sound Sync

 

WoW flying mount example, showcase incredible precision of acoustic feedback

 

WoW animation sync, showcase incredible precision of visual stimulation/feedback

 

SW:TOR animation sync, showcase lack of precision, lack of attention to detail of stimulation/feedback

 

Emphasize importance these contribute to the feeling of "being" the Avatar and not "playing" the Avatar. SRPGs you "play" a character/story, MMORPGs you "ARE" the character -- Must feel perfect for longevity and to eliminate feeling of disconnect.

 

Sequence: (7)

 

WoW UI Response and accuracy, showcase buttonpress (UI Response) accuracy to animation/sound/effect of ability.

 

SW:TORs UI creates feeling of disconnect, showcase unreliability, lack of accuracy.

 

Sequence: (8)

 

SW:TOR Warzone combat footage and frustration

 

WoW BG footage of perfect responsiveness and fun combat

[Halacs]

Update: Ability Delay & Character Responsiveness

 

The video is in the works and I am dedicating as much time as I can to it, the reason for the lengthy delay is simply that it will not be 1-2min video but a real analysis of the problems and ramifications.

 

So until then, I'd like to release a little preview video, just to prove that I am on it and because it was fun to make. I hope you enjoy it for what its worth.

 

Preview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVFNpTxOH7c

 

 

 

 

Also, here you can see the actual work in progress (for those who care):

 

Ability Delay & Avatar Responsiveness

 

1) Short Introduction to Threadline and topic of discussion

2) Start with Positives -- SW:TOR Instants/No GCD Success!

 

Sequence: (1) -- Showcasing examples of failure to trigger as well as delay

 

Ability failures to trigger even though it is "not" on CD, GCD is "not" in effect, there is "no" other ability being channeled or cast and all ability requirements are met.

 

Showcase smooth (instant) WoW ability executions under any circumstances.

 

Sequence: (2) -- Ultimate effect of delay in PvP

 

SW:TOR Warzone footage, showcase ability delay/execution delay and how it affects fluidity in PvP.

 

WoW BG Footage, showcase effect of instant ability executions without delay and distinguish differences in fluid/seamless gameplay.

 

Sequence: (3) -- Ultimate effect of delay in PvE

 

WoW competitive footage, showcase necessity of perfect responsiveness and its effect on tuning a goo endgame (PvE and PvP Interactions).

 

SW:TOR Rotation, showcase visual and feedback sluggishness, feeling of "lag in response", feeling of disconnect from Avatar.

 

WoW "The Dummy Movement Test", showcase (Emphasize Importance of) full movement with target swapping and ability exections.

 

WoW "Caster and Hunter" rotations, showcase smoothness of rotation chaining "Casted and Instants" as well as "Procs". (Emphasize Importance)

 

Sequence: (4) -- Ultimate effect on Healing

 

WoW Healing footage, emphasize on the "need" for responsiveness to healers for movement and chaining of "Casted" abilities with "Instant" abilities

 

Sequence: (5) -- Animations, clipping, aesthetics, importance of "perfect" visual feedback

 

WoW animations example, showcase "ugly"/simple/quick animations in rogue/melee rotation.

 

WoW animation example, showcase "procs" and "instant execution" of non GCD/Instants in animation.

 

SW:TOR animation example, showcase "nice"/elaborate/long animations

 

SW:TOR animation example, showcase "procs" and success as well as failure due to size of animation.

 

Sequence: (6) -- Importance of Perfection, attention to detail in feedback - Animation/Sound Sync

 

WoW flying mount example, showcase incredible precision of acoustic feedback

 

WoW animation sync, showcase incredible precision of visual stimulation/feedback

 

SW:TOR animation sync, showcase lack of precision, lack of attention to detail of stimulation/feedback

 

Emphasize importance these contribute to the feeling of "being" the Avatar and not "playing" the Avatar. SRPGs you "play" a character/story, MMORPGs you "ARE" the character -- Must feel perfect for longevity and to eliminate feeling of disconnect.

 

Sequence: (7)

 

WoW UI Response and accuracy, showcase buttonpress (UI Response) accuracy to animation/sound/effect of ability.

 

SW:TORs UI creates feeling of disconnect, showcase unreliability, lack of accuracy.

 

Sequence: (8)

 

SW:TOR Warzone combat footage and frustration

 

WoW BG footage of perfect responsiveness and fun combat

 

Nice preview. ETA on final cut?

[ajjw]

Update: Ability Delay & Character Responsiveness

 

The video is in the works and I am dedicating as much time as I can to it, the reason for the lengthy delay is simply that it will not be 1-2min video but a real analysis of the problems and ramifications.

 

So until then, I'd like to release a little preview video, just to prove that I am on it and because it was fun to make. I hope you enjoy it for what its worth.

 

Preview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVFNpTxOH7c

Song is Heart of Courage by Two Steps from Hell, if anyone's interested.

Edit: Might be wrong there, can't quite pin down which one it is. Army of Justice?

 

On topic: Nice preview so far. Looking forward to the full thing

Edited January 14, 2012 by ajjw

[Xcore]

Song is Heart of Courage by Two Steps from Hell, if anyone's interested.

Edit: Might be wrong there, can't quite pin down which one it is. Army of Justice?

 

On topic: Nice preview so far. Looking forward to the full thing

 

Protectors of the Earth by Two Steps from Hell

 

You can hear it here:

 

 

The full thing will be out asap of course but I want to make sure that I nail it well enough to really properly showcase this entire topic. I'll keep you guys updated of course whenever you wish, I'm still in this thread every day

[Xcore]

Nice preview. ETA on final cut?

 

Can't give ETA sadly but what I can say is that the preview video does not represent the layout or format of the final. What I'm saying is thought some footage was in the preview vid, the final will not be a "floating/jumping" around cinematic such as the preview

[Stonedsoul]

I have no clue what you're trying to tell me.

 

I get that you don't get what I said though. I try to elaborate:

 

- Yes there seem to be some problems.

- Because of the natural dynamics of raging internet masses (not unlike religious zealots) the problems got blown way out of proportion.

 

The end.

 

You are arguing basically that we are lying and that the delay problem is not of gamebreaking proportions.

 

I have news for you. I have waited for months in anticipations and even bought a new PC for this game. I just unsubbed because I just cant play with constant .5-1 sec delays. Feeling like you are at 1k+ ping when you are under 50 ms is NOT enjoyable, and does, for me and the people complaining about it, break the game.

 

The end.

[Patizor]

Sith Warrior and Jedi Knight are almost unplayable for me because of the ability delay and animation hesitation.

 

Absolutely unacceptable.

 

Oh so what if a game with "Star Wars" in the title doesn't have functional Jedi or Sith? Big deal!

 

Nice work, BioWare. I'm about to give up on my Jedi Knight for a Smuggler.

[JLeezy]

/retaliate

 

 

 

lol... /retaliate indeed.../unsubscribe

 

[TheWulfe]

You know I bet one of the main reasons there isn't a combat log, is because we would be able to see just how bad the ability lag really is.

[JLeezy]

You are arguing basically that we are lying and that the delay problem is not of gamebreaking proportions.

 

I have news for you. I have waited for months in anticipations and even bought a new PC for this game. I just unsubbed because I just cant play with constant .5-1 sec delays. Feeling like you are at 1k+ ping when you are under 50 ms is NOT enjoyable, and does, for me and the people complaining about it, break the game.

 

The end.

 

I too bought a new PC for this game....i'm BEYOND frustrated at how this issue hasn't been dealt with. Several other guild mates and friends have ALSO purchased new laptops/PC's JUST for this game (because we were all rocking old PC's).......needless to say we all have buyers remorse!

 

If this issue TRULY is at the CORE of the game and inherently must be replaced, then BW has to own up to it and fix/replace it or this game will not succeed!! - who will continue to pay for a broken game!?!?!?

[monjiay]

You know I bet one of the main reasons there isn't a combat log, is because we would be able to see just how bad the ability lag really is.

 

BINGO!

 

People would be howling even louder if they could see a combat log.

 

This game is a sad, mean joke.

[Vicrodhe]

Yeah, investigating something doesn't mean that the problem is of the same proportion as the herd makes it look like.

 

If there was nothing wrong why would they say they are investigating instead of there is no delay issues .?

[Basedgawd]

Hmm a combat log would help to identify combat flaws.

[Tinkersw]

Hey Xcore ..

Thanks for the preview.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVFNpTxOH7c

I see how much time you are putting into this

and I look forward to the final cut.

[Tukat]

Hey Xcore ..

Thanks for the preview.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVFNpTxOH7c

I see how much time you are putting into this

and I look forward to the final cut.

 

 

 

 

 

yes thanks from me to.

[anathematize]

i appreciate all the extensive work you've done OP on this issue that many players felt but couldn't exactly put words to.

 

the transitions in your video are very distracting though. pulls away from the actual content being displayed. i would advise removing that nonsense from the final product and doing more work highlighting the actual ability lag (maybe add timers, etc).