Why oh why can I hurt other players if I am not PvP flagged?

[_Darkstar]

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Seeing as I got a warning for insulting someone (Sorry!) I find it ironic that I accidentally got flagged for forum PvP too!

[Shoraan]

It happened to me yesterday. I was on a mission with a guildmate, happily firing our AoEs at a couple of mobs when suddenly at least five flagged enemies ran through the AoE and got us flagged. I wasn't able to shoot more than once or twice at one of them before getting killed. It was over so quickly that I didn't even get an adrenaline rush.

 

At least they left quickly and were not camping, and they did not hit us during a crucial moment, so it was only a minor inconvenience (e.g. repair bill) in our case, but there is definitely potential for some serious griefing if this occurs more often.

 

Is there any option to have enemy players who are flagged for PvP displayed as red dots on the minimap? If not, I can't imagine how you can have that kind of situational awareness during a fight. Not sure if others do it, but I don't look around 360 degrees every few seconds when I have to deal with the strong and elites in front of me.

 

In short: yes, the auto-flagging should be removed completely. Any action on flagged people (enemies and allies) should trigger a warning or not have an effect at all.

 

Regarding the case where an enemy player healed an enemy mob, that's a different matter. It should still be possible to heal allied NPCs (as this may be needed in some missions) but it would perhaps be possible to prevent healing if the NPC was attacked by a player. However, I am sure that there are a lot of scenarios in which such a game mechanic could lead to unforeseeable problems or other creative ways to grief someone.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Shoraan

[Aieny]

People say "just be more careful about your AoEs on the PvE server" and to "be aware of who is around you". The first problem is that, as has been mentioned before, some people choose to play on a PvP server because they don't want to have to have this kind of situational awareness in their day-to-day questing. Shocking to the PvP crowd, I know, but some people just really don't want to worry about what's going on past their immediate area.

 

the second problem is far worse. On a PvP server, enemy players are extremely obvious, making situational aware easier: you know friend from foe, because you are flagged by nature of the server ruleset. On a PvE server, unflagged friendly and enemy characters appear with the exact same nameplate color, so you don't have a fast visual clue who your friends and enemies are. Add to that there is no racial distinction between Imperial and Republic players, so the only way to know if another character is friendly is by mousing over and looking at the tooltip. Their nameplate changes once they are flagged, but if they flag while in your AoE, or they run off, stealth, flag, and return, you literally have been ambushed by the player, on a Player versus Environment server.

 

This, it is actually far more work to avoid potential grief era on a PvE server because of the "optional" flagging for PvP.

[Balraw]

Longest thread I have ever made and still no response from BioWare, it's not like its a hard question.

 

Do you plan on leaving the mechanic in place where you can get PvP flagged unintentionally or not?

 

I am not asking for an immediate fix (I actually understand priorities!) but please just answer this before I hit 50.

 

Given that this question was apparently asked multiple times during the beta and this mechanic still made it to the launch client seems to speak volumes to me and also makes me rather sad. Not that it matters to EA/Bioware they have my money already.

 

Bioware advertise your PvP interaction on your pve/rp servers as "player-vs-player fights must be agreed to by both sides or conducted in PvP-designated areas." and on PVE-RP servers its even stricter "players of opposing factions may only battle each other in designated instanced areas on RP-PvE servers." This is, with the force flagging in place, a blatant lie and simply does not reflect what is the reality on the live servers, where someone can trick you or force you into unwanted PvP regardless of where you are or what your pvp flag is set to. Bioware this needs addressing before this issue is even more prevalent than it currently is.

 

Sadly I am getting the feeling that nothing is going to change or that they will even acknowledge that this is a problem. Starting to loose faith in Bioware

Edited January 16, 2012 by Balraw

[VorpalK]

People say "just be more careful about your AoEs on the PvE server" and to "be aware of who is around you". The first problem is that, as has been mentioned before, some people choose to play on a PvE server because they don't want to have to have this kind of situational awareness in their day-to-day questing. Shocking to the PvP crowd, I know, but some people just really don't want to worry about what's going on past their immediate area.

 

the second problem is far worse. On a PvP server, enemy players are extremely obvious, making situational aware easier: you know friend from foe, because you are flagged by nature of the server ruleset. On a PvE server, unflagged friendly and enemy characters appear with the exact same nameplate color, so you don't have a fast visual clue who your friends and enemies are. Add to that there is no racial distinction between Imperial and Republic players, so the only way to know if another character is friendly is by mousing over and looking at the tooltip. Their nameplate changes once they are flagged, but if they flag while in your AoE, or they run off, stealth, flag, and return, you literally have been ambushed by the player, on a Player versus Environment server.

 

This, it is actually far more work to avoid potential grief era on a PvE server because of the "optional" flagging for PvP.

 

This is precisely the problem with this mechanic. Since we have no response, I guess my subscription will be expiring. I don't need an immediate fix, just assurance that it will be fixed. I won't continue to pay for a game where this kind of griefing is permitted.

Edited January 16, 2012 by VorpalK

[Cadiva]

So she gave a valid response (named an MMO that has the option to avoid damaging the other faction in AoE), and you dismiss it because you don't agree with their decision? Sorry, doesn't work that way.

 

 

And please tell us, why it was a dumb move? Explain why it was stupid to allow people to avoid PvP in this way.

 

It's also incorrect as you could turn your PvP flag off in closed beta.

 

Longest thread I have ever made and still no response from BioWare, it's not like its a hard question.

 

Do you plan on leaving the mechanic in place where you can get PvP flagged unintentionally or not?

 

I am not asking for an immediate fix (I actually understand priorities!) but please just answer this before I hit 50.

 

You're unlikely to get a response in the forums, send in an In Game Ticket as they said it was a bug and needed fixing. The more bug reports they get, the higher the chance of it being fixed.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Cadiva

[_Darkstar]

Given that this question was apparently asked multiple times during the beta and this mechanic still made it to the launch client seems to speak volumes to me and also makes me rather sad. Not that it matters to EA/Bioware they have my money already.

I am of a slightly different view myself, there are too many people on the forums (Not talking about you here) that seem to give BioWare no chance to actually make changes. I understand that this is unlikely to be an actual priority, and depending on the code may be hard to fix and so pushed even further down the queue, but I would really love to know 100%.

 

If is stays in game I certainly won't, because despite it being the only issue I have come across so far it is gamebreaking for me

 

You're unlikely to get a response in the forums, send in an In Game Ticket as they said it was a bug and needed fixing. The more bug reports they get, the higher the chance of it being fixed.

I had a bug report which they kept open for ages, making me think something was happening, then the other day it got closed with a generic "You can turn off your PvP flag in a Cantina ..." type message which made me sad.

 

I have resubmitted another bug though and will keep doing it. I urge anyone else who gets this to do the same, though unless you get corpse camped I wouldn't go as far as reporting people for griefing as some people may not know about the mechanic and genuinely think you started the fight!

 

Forum moderators have been to this thread twice now, so please get this question brought to the dev's attention. I just want an answer, not an instant fix, not even an ETA, just an answer. Please

[Balraw]

I am of a slightly different view myself, there are too many people on the forums (Not talking about you here) that seem to give BioWare no chance to actually make changes. I understand that this is unlikely to be an actual priority, and depending on the code may be hard to fix and so pushed even further down the queue, but I would really love to know 100%.

 

If is stays in game I certainly won't, because despite it being the only issue I have come across so far it is gamebreaking for me

 

 

I had a bug report which they kept open for ages, making me think something was happening, then the other day it got closed with a generic "You can turn off your PvP flag in a Cantina ..." type message which made me sad.

 

I have resubmitted another bug though and will keep doing it. I urge anyone else who gets this to do the same, though unless you get corpse camped I wouldn't go as far as reporting people for griefing as some people may not know about the mechanic and genuinely think you started the fight!

 

Forum moderators have been to this thread twice now, so please get this question brought to the dev's attention. I just want an answer, not an instant fix, not even an ETA, just an answer. Please

 

I agree with you about the fact that it may not be an easy fix and like you I would be prepared to wait for a proper fix but the thing that is really starting to annoy me is the silence that is coming from Bioware as far as acknowledging the issue.

 

If Bioware came out and said we are aware of this and are working on a fix. I would be more than happy as then it is categorically an exploit. Just that would help deter all but the most rabid of griefers. However, as it stands it look partially legitimate (despite what it says on the support pages and elsewhere) and the people that are having to suffer due to it are the people who rolled on pve/rp servers to avoid this sort of thing in the first place.

 

I am not unsubbing just yet but I am only subbing month by month (and I hate myself for doing this and always promised I wouldn't mainly because it achieves little more than being an empty gesture in the end) but if no acknowledgement comes by the time my next sub payment is due then I will have to reconsider my options as far as this game goes. I really do enjoy the pve but if someone is able to force me into pvp in a pve area without my consent then this game has no place for me

[DarthStarbender]

I was on Tatooine minding my own business and killin' sand people (who likes them anyway? I'm a good rebel, light side), when while attacking a rifleman wrapped like a mummy, I was jumped! I must have used an AoE (not sure which one) according to the posts here. Next I saw a sith warrior attacking and then disappearing. Then reappearing, and attacking again. Needless to say, as I was already using my skills to defeat an equal adversary, my survival options against another (let alone a *person*), were almost none.

 

He was good, using invisibility, I never knew he was there. I used to play dark-side on SWG, and understand the mindset. I am being really, really good this time as a Jedi Sage, healing and such. So and Dexter once did: I forgive him. But Dexter expects you to be sorry. (Reference: Dexter, Showtime series about a serial killer who tries to do good)

 

This person must be using this exploit to ambush players there. I came back and tried to complete the mission by getting the rifle (near a cliff), and the unseen stooge force-waved me off the cliff! I kind of chuckled, because really, it was kind of funny... I can remain objective about it mostly ... I just wanted revenge. If he can do it to me.... hmm.

 

So I did some stuff, waited for it to wear off (the PvP flag), did some more stuff and later heard a commotion as I finished a 'conversation' with the mission-giver (Solara at Taxi Pad). Behind me I think the same guys had entered through friendly lines invisibly, been discovered, and killed by Non player guards. I walked over and looked at the name, something like "abu-naddal" or such. Not sure. I am sure, though, that some people are trying to flame others with this exploit. I kind of wanted to play PvE until I felt comfortable to do PvP and 'bump it up a notch'.

 

Beware Abu, I'm Chuck Norris and I'm going to eat your lunch.

 

Bioware, at least tell people this problem exists! I don't care if you don't fix it. Knowledge is what I need, or you will lose my money. I can play other games and be just as happy.

[monjiay]

So let me get this straight. I'm on a pvE server and somebody of the opposite faction can just stand stealthed in my AOE and I'm flagged? That's not a PVE server, that's a PvP server.

 

This might not seem like a big problem at the moment, but as people reach 50 it will become a HUGE game breaking problem so hopefully they are working on it.

 

Lucky me, I rolled a class with no stealth.

 

I wonder if I have time to level a stealth class before this is fixed.

Edited January 16, 2012 by monjiay

[CornBreadtm]

Lol. I ganked so many people that way. XD

 

I did noticed that some times companions will attack PvP flagged players... It's always fun to 3 shot Khem Val with sucker punch then watch the Sith Sage force speed away.

[Elysith]

I wish too that as it's been said many times in this thread already, that PvP on PvE servers should be strictly consensual - however it would implemented - and not able to be triggered by the action of other players surrounding you.

 

At worst the only actions that logically should flag the player into PvP automatically are direct single target spell on PvP enabled target (enemy or friendly), when you can clearly know they are into PvP by their name color.

 

AoE spells,either friendly or enemy, from a non-flagged player should have no effect on flagged players.

 

If one player wants to participate in a PvP action happening just near him, he should first turn himself into PvP-Flagged.

[VorpalK]

I agree with you about the fact that it may not be an easy fix and like you I would be prepared to wait for a proper fix but the thing that is really starting to annoy me is the silence that is coming from Bioware as far as acknowledging the issue.

 

If Bioware came out and said we are aware of this and are working on a fix. I would be more than happy as then it is categorically an exploit. Just that would help deter all but the most rabid of griefers. However, as it stands it look partially legitimate (despite what it says on the support pages and elsewhere) and the people that are having to suffer due to it are the people who rolled on pve/rp servers to avoid this sort of thing in the first place.

 

I am not unsubbing just yet but I am only subbing month by month (and I hate myself for doing this and always promised I wouldn't mainly because it achieves little more than being an empty gesture in the end) but if no acknowledgement comes by the time my next sub payment is due then I will have to reconsider my options as far as this game goes. I really do enjoy the pve but if someone is able to force me into pvp in a pve area without my consent then this game has no place for me

 

Agreed. Until there's an announcement of a fix, or of permanent bans for anyone exploiting this (preferably both) I won't be paying a subscription fee for this game.

[fruitofvictory]

WoW also fixed that a long time ago because people found it obnoxious and complained.

 

No matter how careful you are, you can't help it if someone stealths into the AoE you set down before you knew there was anyone around.

 

Having to watch your back and adjusting your playstyle to account for PvP encounters is normal on PvP servers. However, people who rolled on PvE servers did so precisely because they wanted to avoid world PvP. Shoving world PvP down their throats and forcing them to gimp their playstyle in case there is a griefer around only makes the game stressful and unenjoyable for them (and defeats the point of PvE servers).

 

I agree with you that all servers should be pvp.

[_Darkstar]

My latest ticket got closed with the standard escalation message, which I am taking to be a good sign because they don't tend to escalate 'working as intended' features.

 

But I still have my fingers crossed for some word on this... especially because my sub lapses soon and I am loathe to resub for now.

Edited January 17, 2012 by _Darkstar

[Golarz]

Name an MMO where catching an enemy player in an AoE, even if you were targeting an enemy with it first, does not throw you into PvP mode. Go ahead.

 

Rift

 

There was an option called smart PvP flag or something like that. Once toggled on you had to flag yoursewlf manualy to deal any kind of damage to flagged players or even to heal or buff friendly flagged players in your party.

[OriginSucks]

A friend of mine likes to sit inside the turrets on Illum while flagged, the turret hides his name. Then when unsuspecting republic scum aoe the turrets he pops out and beats the crap out of them.

 

It's quite funny.

[Exothermix]

SWG. If you were not flagged pvp then this doesn't happen .

 

Actually until they removed the TEF (temporary enemy flag) system it did.

 

Removing the TEF system was one of the first stages of killing the game.

 

For avoidance of doubt I'm not saying OP is wrong - just that the quoted text above is semi-wrong or didn't play at launch.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Exothermix

[XiliX]

This happened to me yesterday & I couldn't figure out what happened as i was dead almost immediately.

 

Was watching a Republic player fighting a whole heck of alot of mobs. Enough of them, that I would have been impressed if he survived. Hence why I was watching. The mobs stopped attacking him & I thought he died in one of those bad Chinese kung fu movie poses. The mobs were still "white" when they all turned at me & started attacking. The Republic player started hitting me with rocket attacks & I was dead.

 

Naturally, when I asked if this was possible in gen chat, all I received was immature flames. Who would have thought? Now I know it wasn't me being a windowlicker, but it's a legitimate issue.

[Ssfbistimg]

To add a bit of good news into this thread I did /sit and the person who I hit left me alone, but while I was making this thread the mobs I was killing when I caught him respawned and killed me lol.

 

Edit: To add a bit of bad news why was my thread moved into new player help? I don't want help I want to complain!

 

I play on Juyo and today on Tatooine a couple of Sith Carebears snuck up behind me while fighting trying to get me to flag myself with an aoe. But little do they know at level 27 my Scoundrel only has 2 aoe's my grenade and some cone shaped gun shot that takes up upperhand and seems to never actually hit anyone. Plus since i love to cc enemies with my tranq so i dont use no aoe and turned off my companions. I just hit /say and typed silly sith carebears Freedon don't use AOE so his pants are never down. Why don't you grow a set and roll Pvp server.

[FloatingFatMan]

A friend of mine likes to sit inside the turrets on Illum while flagged, the turret hides his name. Then when unsuspecting republic scum aoe the turrets he pops out and beats the crap out of them.

 

It's quite funny.

 

Then your "friend" is a class A jerk.

[ibrac]

This needs to be fixed, if it is "working as intended" they need to change their description of PVE servers to match the current reality.

 

1. AOE hitting a flagged PVP enemy should not trigger your PVP flag, it should do no damage (not register) if the enemy player is in your aoe.

 

2. Healing a freindly PVP flagged player should not be possible without flagging for PVP or popping up a warning - this will flag you for PVP, continue Y/N?

 

3. Raising a dead player who is flagged for PVP, needs a warning and an option to flag for PVP or cancel the spell.

 

4. Targeting and casting a damaging spell on an enemy PVP flagged player should require you to flag first, so the enemy can see you are now ready to PVP. Not forcing this allows an unflagged player the advantage of "shoot first" and has other side effects. This is important because of the "challenge/duel situation" (unflagged enemy challenges you to a duel, you start combat, he flags for PVP, you get flagged for PVP and suddenly his 5 buddies jump and gank you (who were not flagged for PVP)

 

These are basic rules needed for a PVE server to prevent PVP griefing. I've seen it myself on a pve-rp server. For those who think this is ok and just a "clever use of mechanic's" I feel sorry for you. In real life if you treat others this way, you will reap what you sow.

 

This isn't the only reason I've canceled my sub, too many bugs and frustration with some of the quests were major contributors. The game is immersive and fun to play for the story line, but the mechanical issues with the game rob me of the fun. Hard to enjoy the story line when every time you do a quest you are faced with play issues.

[Reevax]

Name an MMO where catching an enemy player in an AoE, even if you were targeting an enemy with it first, does not throw you into PvP mode. Go ahead.

 

That's just how it works. If they're flagged, anyone and anything can and will do damage to them. If you do damage to someone, you become flagged.

 

 

Lol why are you so smug, you can't get into PVP in WoW like that.

[Kfab]

This actually brightens my day a bit. Not because some players are not appreciating the PvP mechanics, but that this option is available for others. Personally I think the game is far too safe. You can basically avoid entire areas of mobs without being stealthed, almost never having to watch your back. Ive found it to be kinda boring.

 

In fact I rolled PvE first to avoid getting ganked at low lvls only to find you pretty much wont come across anyone until 20+ anyways and by that time you can kinda take care of yourself. Also found out I liked the PvP here much better than I would thought, so Im left wanting for PvP encounters in a PvE world (until transfers are made available i guess).

 

I began running around flagged to see what would happen. Days passed and I never crossed anyone else who was flagged on Tat. Outlaws Den was empty. Seeing republic toons and not being able to attack kinda got to me over time. At this point I would welcome a shadow to creep up and get the drop on me.

 

 

There's an easy solution. Roll on a PvP server and you can play the game as you wish. Although I'd like to see you "take care of yourself" at lvl 20 when you are ganked by a lvl 50.

[Kfab]

Let me start off by saying I was forced to play on a PvE server by my RL friends. There is like 9 of us and some of them refused to play on a PvP server.

 

So this tactic is my only open world PvP outlet. I love doing this to people. If I see a Sith, Ill do this every time. Its fun, its funny, and you know he's pissed.

 

I am against removing it from the game.

 

Well, then you roll an alt on a PvP server to gank people since you find it so "fun and funny". Gotta love internet tough-guy bullies.