Convince me to try Dirty Fighting

[junkfunk]

Hello fellow Gunslingers,

 

As someone who has always been Sharpshooter-specced, I'm currently intrigued with the possibilities of Dirty Fighting. While I wait for some of my other guildies to level up and start raiding, I've been PvPing a bit, and while I don't want to sacrifice DPS for PvE encounters, I've heard great stories from other Gunslingers who enjoy DF.

 

Please keep in mind that I'm pretty well-geared from hardmodes and PvP bags, and I consistently top 300k damage in warzones. I'm not crazy about switching from Sharpshooter to DF, but if I like what I hear I'll definitely give it a try.

 

Essentially, I'm perfectly fine with how I'm specced right now. I'm comfortable and do pretty damn well in every scenario. I just feel like I'm not utilizing my class to its potential if I'm too stubborn to give something a try (I gave Saboteur a shot and hated it tremendously).

 

Some questions:

 

• Other than the obvious positives for PvP (longer DOTs, etc.), what kind of utility can I expect in a PvE situation?

• How does the playstyle differ from the more stationary Sharpshooter? From what I see in the talent trees, it looks like I'll be more mobile. Am I sacrificing a bit of defense (for not being in cover), and if so, does the amount of mobility I gain from DF offset that?

• Wounding Shots. Enough said? I've also heard it has one of the coolest animations Gunslingers can potentially get.

• Does my DPS suffer? Whereas Sharpshooter is certainly more bursty and long range, I feel like DF requires me to be more mobile and closer to the enemy. In the long run, will I see more damage?

 

Thanks so much for your help and insight! I appreciate it.

 

-Nasty

[Karast]

You get better mobility out of DF. You main dps comes from dots. You can pretty much stay constantly moving and just apply dots and hemo as you go and then LoS / hide behind objects which helps with survivability.

 

You do not lose all that much burst since you can still use cover and use aimed shot + sabo charge, and you have enough free points to buff those abilities.

 

You can get reduced CD's on your CC break and absorb, and a secondary slow / root break that comes in really handy when kiting.

 

You can also get a run speed boost with the reduced CD on dirty kick which is nice for kiting as well.

 

In both PvE and PvP since your dots and the bulk of the damage from wounding shots is internal high armor is not an issue.

 

With high crit and the energy on dot skill you can get really good energy return.

 

In PvE on boss fights that have mechanics that require you to be mobile you can do more dps. Think the sith boss in Esseles. The robot and optional boss in Taval V. The AoE slow is handy as well.

 

In PvP the dots prevent objective capping. So an 18 or 21 second dot before you die can give you enough time to run back or for help to come. It also allows you to do dps after you die. So if your getting heavily focused in a game and are dieing all the time, you can at least dot someone up as up die to do a bit of damage or get a kill.

[dftowl]

 

Some questions:

 

• Other than the obvious positives for PvP (longer DOTs, etc.), what kind of utility can I expect in a PvE situation?

• How does the playstyle differ from the more stationary Sharpshooter? From what I see in the talent trees, it looks like I'll be more mobile. Am I sacrificing a bit of defense (for not being in cover), and if so, does the amount of mobility I gain from DF offset that?

• Wounding Shots. Enough said? I've also heard it has one of the coolest animations Gunslingers can potentially get.

• Does my DPS suffer? Whereas Sharpshooter is certainly more bursty and long range, I feel like DF requires me to be more mobile and closer to the enemy. In the long run, will I see more damage?

 

Thanks so much for your help and insight! I appreciate it.

 

-Nasty

 

 

1. The main utility advantage you'll have over SS is the 30% slow from Shrap Bomb. This is useful both in PvP for stalling objectives as well as PvE for grouping mobs. Other than that there is no difference utility wise.

 

2. The playstyle is much different. The mobility advantage is huge in PvP. It also shines in late game PvE such as Ops/HM FPs where many bosses require movement to not get dead.

As far as defence is concerned, remember, you can still drop into cover at any time it is just not required. It becomes a tool and not a crutch.

 

3. When you have your bleeds rolling and pop Hemo Shot/Wounding Shots you will see so many numbers you really can't count the damage. True story.

 

4. I think its a safe bet to say that SS is marginally higher DPS than DF at the moment. Though the difference would be very slight...maybe 5-10% max. And for heavy movement fights where SS can't keep their rotation going, I'm sure I'm miles ahead. As far as closer to the enemy, nope. All the shots in DF have a 30-35 m range so you can still chill in the back.

 

I've been running DF in OPs and PvP and been extremely happy with it. Mobility is just something you can't put a price on. The biggest downsides I've faced is energy management on bosses during burn phases in OPs, and strong emphasis on kiting when dealing with hard Elites/Champions. Other than that it's gravy

[Incendergel]

To the OP - thanks for asking.

 

To everyone else - how is it for questing? Still have about 10 levels to go before I reach 50 and so far done everything as SS.

 

Do I need to swap gear around or will everything still work the same? Also is there any base spec to use? I've not really focused on any of this so far and just went SS - ignorant for sure, I know.

 

While world pvp doesn't have any incentives and currently in Warzones I can hold my own. World pvp hasn't been too kind. In fact I pretty much lose unless I control the start of the fight. It seems, and I've been wanting to try, that this tree may indeed be more viable due to the mobility.

[jazzllanna]

I tried it and from my experience as a level 41- it eats your energy very quickly.

 

I loved it in war zones and hated it questing. Some have said it is very gear dependent. I can see that. I just wish it had a better regen mechanic.

[Infanta]

Post builds imo

 

Yes, i am that lazy!

[Arsanists]

i love the idea of DF as i love kiting and enjoy solo roaming in world pvp but i tried it out in group fighting and war zones and think energy costs are to high to acheive continuous high dps. There is also the fact that usually when i target some1 i want them dead in 6 seconds or 4 if i am assisting with some1 and only SS has the tools for this. Its a great idea but DF isn't for fast paced killing and the switch would severely lover my groups reactive dps potential.

[zalii]

Hey there,

first of all, sorry my english ;p

 

I tried out many spec since last weeks and i think i ll stick with DF now.

I love those "true damage" capa vs armor stacking guys/shield etc.

 

DF is far more mobile than other spec and can keep up a nice pressure on healers.

One thing that would be nice, always in the idead of mobility, would be to get a "channel while walking skill" on wounding shot. (but it would be too much imba).

 

Here some footage i made 2 hours ago, and there are some other in my channel.

 

http://youtu.be/JE6vC_soT7w ( HD would be available soon, just uploaded it)

and

http://youtu.be/utcR9PVtpZA

 

 

Hope this help,

Regards

 

Valii.

 

edit :

* Other than the obvious positives for PvP (longer DOTs, etc.), what kind of utility can I expect in a PvE situation?

 

-> i dun really do pve, but so far it was nice cuz of the armor stack boss in dungeon, bad point dot = cc break care of it.

 

* How does the playstyle differ from the more stationary Sharpshooter? From what I see in the talent trees, it looks like I'll be more mobile. Am I sacrificing a bit of defense (for not being in cover), and if so, does the amount of mobility I gain from DF offset that?

 

-> you ll be more mobile, loosing balistic dampler traded for 30sec Defense Screen cd

But yes, no hurkerdown while running.

 

* Wounding Shots. Enough said? I've also heard it has one of the coolest animations Gunslingers can potentially get.

 

-> cool anim, stack damage with bleeding on target + add armor debuff to flurry on the end of it. more efficient to keep wounding shot + hemo blast when u get your target below 40%.

 

* Does my DPS suffer? Whereas Sharpshooter is certainly more bursty and long range, I feel like DF requires me to be more mobile and closer to the enemy. In the long run, will I see more damage? Both deal a nice amount of love, but they are different way to play.

 

-> IMO sharpshoot burst a lot, but can be tank with a shield or some cc def or by stacking armor/stim. Wounding shot on the other end provide you a better pressure on your target (internal damage).

 

Wounding and hemo got low CD.

 

So far, i think i m doing better since i switch to DF ( tried sharpshoot and sab(did not like it)).

Edited January 11, 2012 by zalii

[Noromorous]

Hey there,

first of all, sorry my english ;p

 

I tried out many spec since last weeks and i think i ll stick with DF now.

I love those "true damage" capa vs armor stacking guys/shield etc.

 

DF is far more mobile than other spec and can keep up a nice pressure on healers.

One thing that would be nice, always in the idead of mobility, would be to get a "channel while walking skill" on wounding shot. (but it would be too much imba).

 

Here some footage i made 2 hours ago, and there are some other in my channel.

 

http://youtu.be/JE6vC_soT7w ( HD would be available soon, just uploaded it)

and

http://youtu.be/utcR9PVtpZA[/url

 

 

Hope this help,

Regards

 

Valii.

 

Hey really enjoyed the videos, I was also lookin at what DF can offer and this has helped my decision.

 

problem I had was even when people said it was more mobile I always assumed that meant 'for a smuggler' in that you will still be in cover but you can move around a bit more because your not waiting for attacks to channel as much. if that makes sense.

[dftowl]

I keep hearing people complain about energy management in DF but honestly I've never had an issue with it. The difference is you actually have to watch your energy in DF as opposed to SS which has a relatively simple energy requirement. This is mainly because your bread n' butter attacks in SS all have cast times (Charged Burst/Aimed Shot/Speed Shot). This allows your energy to top itself off before every shot.

 

In DF, your main abilities (Vital Shot/Hemo Blast/Shrap Bomb/Wounding Shots) are instant cast, so that buffer zone is no longer there. In addition Wounding Shots has a 30 energy cost instead of the standard 20. All this means is that instead of facerolling your rotation, you need to actually make sure you don't over do it and manage that little yellow bar as intended. Remember also that crits from your bleeds refund energy at an extremely fast rate. Ensure that Crit/Surge are your main priority in secondary stats. If you are below 25% crit, better gear may be required before switching over to DF.

[junkfunk]

Thanks for the responses everyone! Really good stuff...

 

I re-specced to DF last night. As with any transition, it's rough to get the hang of. I liken it to getting used to new keybindings - not a very pleasant experience but if you can tough it out, it'll be fine. That being said, I definitely see the potential. I was a lot more mobile, but I died a ton as I tried to spread out damage. I was still putting out around the same amount of damage as I would have been in SS (~400k on the high end, ~200k low) but it was a different type of damage. Duh...

 

I'm still used to being burst-heavy and being able to burn down targets extremely quickly, but DF allowed me to put pressure on more targets than I normally would be able to. I felt that tanks were dying much faster than normal (internal bleeds FTW!), and healers absolutely melted. It's tough to compare the numbers and time spent killing certain targets without a combat log or a recording program, but I could definitely tell a difference in how fast particular targets were going down.

 

Is it something I'll stay specced in? I'm not sure. I'll try it out for a couple more days and see what happens. I still haven't had an opportunity to try out PvE-wise, so hopefully I'll run a couple HMs tonight and report back. But PvP-wise, while there's no marginal difference in the overall damage, it's the type of playstyle I'm worried about. And again, I was probably doing it wrong, but I found myself more out of cover than usual and that usually spelled trouble. I'm very good (in SS) at finding good spots to nuke down targets before they realize what's happening, so transitioning from essentially being a rooted turret and a playstyle that promotes staying in cover to something that gives you a legitimate option in being mobile was difficult to grasp. Probably one of those getting-used-to things. No big deal.

 

So again, thanks for the feedback. I'm happy I tried DF. I'm going to test it out a couple more days before I give up on it, but as of right now, I see myself going back to SS. DOTs sure are fun, though...

 

[Noromorous]

Well seein as I wont be able to play for a while, I look forward to your feedback as a newly respecced SS to DF player.

Think I'll be keepin tabs on this as you seem to be addressing the same things I've been wondering about DF.

[Kelborne]

I tried out dirty fighting from about level 40-49, and it wasn't a bad spec, but the set up time was killing me, literally. To get Wounding Shots to roll face, you had to hit your target with 3 very little damaging attacks. Now that might sound so bad, but if you are fighting a burst class, you are already going to be half dead by the time you can use wounding shots with it's full potential.

 

But that's only if you get targeted, if you manage to stay focus free, you can really do some serious damage before your target knows whats hit them.

 

Other than that, energy *can* be a problem, but only if you keep spamming your main bleeds without giving a little energy regen pause. Just a quick Flurry of Bolts or two between your high-energy build up attacks should keep you relatively high in energy.

[Infanta]

Just be aware as well im pretty sure a few classes can dispel the bleeds from DF.

 

I will respec when my 55k cost resets

 

1 more champion piece and ill be DF with 115 energy.

 

Just got a pvp relic, will probably go surge one as well (and lose 52+ endurance one).

[Jandor_Ziska]

I love DF. Obviously it's a great PvP spec, but in PvE it's pretty awesome too, as long as you think of yourself as a 'Utility DPS' rather than 'Pure DPS'.

 

In FPs I usually protect the healer. I clear trash with my grenades, and any mobs that start attacking the healer gets kicked in the nuts and burst down. Let the Tank & other DPS focus on the big threats.

 

You can also kite like a champion. Leg snare and shrap bomb help a lot here. Also remember the speed boost you get from nut kick, even if the boss is un-stunnable.

 

So yeah, if you look at your role as helping the healer & other DPS do their job, you'll enjoy it a lot more.

[komar_]

I've already described my experiences in another thread (see below). I found myself using DF only due to the annoying facts connected with somehow bugged cover mechanic in PvP (you can't cover everywhere, sometimes you have to move a bit to succesfully cover; delay on cover usage; clicking skills that do the animation but don't go off etc.) - I liked the idea of being more mobile. BUT in PvP I realized that burst damage is the only thing which actually makes difference (you still have XS and vital shot DoT for anti-capture purposes...you just miss shrap bomb in this matter). In PVE you just can't do more damage with energy unefficient DF build than as single target turret dps sharpshooter.

 

Well I've leveled my gunslinger on sharpshooter build (mostly cover-based single-target dps build) and on 50 tried to switch to dirty fighting (which seemed always very interesting to me but not very useful until you get the full set of abilities from the tree, that's why I waited for 50).

 

The short story: after two days I'm back on my previous sharpshooter build. It's just more useful.

 

The long story: The dirty fighting idea is quite easy, you start with hemorraghing, add vital shot which has great crit chance, double damage etc. Throw shrap bomb to slow the target down and dps down the target down with wounding shots (speed shot if on CD). Well let's analyze how useful it is:

 

1) Loner PvE (read "I run around and kill lot of normal/strong mobs") - the overall idea of DoTing low health targets is just wrong (how many times have you used vital shot on regular mobs, hmm?). Especially with CDs around 15 seconds it's impossible to do more than two rotations in one encounter (most of the times you do only one) and even with direct damage you kill the mob faster than wait for the dots to tick him down.

 

2) PvP - I've used this one extensively and I can say it has two major issues. Firstly as I've mentioned in previous point the DoT's have quite large CD so you just can't run into three ppl, dot everyone and watch the dmg numbers pop up. So you are quite stuck to dpsing one target anyway (sounds familiar?). The next thing is that because of long CD's your main damaging abilities are Wounding Shots and Speed Shot....and guess what? Those are channeling, which means STATIONARY (speed shots even need cover). Mobility is gone... Secondly I found hard to win fights 1v1 especially against healers (usefull for lone taking of alderaan canons). DoTs are just not so powerfull enough to bring your target down effectively. It's much easier to overnuke a healer with sharpshooter build than kill him with long constant DoT. Not to mention it gives the enemy time to reinforce the guy.

 

3) Group PvE - I haven't tried this one thoroughly but it seems to be much more useful build than for loner PvE because the DoTs will just do their full effect, BUT isn't the idea of dirty fighting tree to be more mobile and fight dirty? Well i don't have much problems to stay stationary in large PvE encounters so that's not the issue. Not to mention you loose 1 bonus energy regen from foxhole, extracheap high dps trickshot and 30% crit dmg bonus. I would need a DPS meter to verify it but to me personaly it seems that the DMG output just can't be better than the singletarget sharpshooter tree.

 

 

I don't say that the idea of dirty fighting tree is bad at all nor it's a weak one. Just that for most encounters I find sharpshooter build more useful.

[junkfunk]

I ran a few hardmodes last night in DF, and I had a pretty good time. Energy management, unlike SS where it is somewhat easy, is much more difficult while specced DF. I found myself too often out of energy, but I think I was just overdoing it as I really haven't had the time to settle in and really get some rotations down, other than the obvious Hemo > Shrap > Vital > Wounding Shots rotation.

 

I watched a few videos and read a couple more posts, but in the end, after giving it a try, I think I'm just more comfortable with SS overall. Part of me wants to think that I'm partial to SS because I leveled in it and found a good rotation over the course of 50 levels, but I really think that my personality and playstyle just isn't about DOTs. In other games, when I haven't been a healer, I've been a ranged nuker, and that role just fits me better.

 

So, in conclusion, I'm going back to SS. That being said, I'm really glad I listened to you guys and gave DF a shot. I had fun and enjoyed the experience, but in the end, I'm more comfortable with the damage role that SS provides. I definitely see DF as a viable spec now - much moreso than I had before. It's just not the spec for me...

 

Thanks!

[Jaime-Hunter]

I find DoT management more engaging. If you clip a DoT (reapply too soon) it's a DPS loss. You do stay mobile. The burst of numbers you get after everything is rolling is pretty gratifying. The numbers all stack to a point of unreadability. Makes me giddy.

[Jaime-Hunter]

My layout for DF:

 

1 - Vital Shot

2 - Flurry

3 - Shrap Bomb

4 - Hemo Shot

5 - Wounding Shots

Shift + 4 - Speed Shots

Shift + 5 - Cool Headed.

 

Everything else is purely situational. Thermal for AoE etc.

 

Priority is thus:

 

Vital Shot/Shrap Bomb.

Hemo Shot.

Wounding Shots.

 

While this is on CD, you have time to either Flurry twice or Speed Shot depending on energy.

 

After this, you Wounding Shot again.

 

Reapply DoTs, and start the cycle again.

 

Always stay above 60% energy for max regen.

 

I've been playing DF exclusively since I started my retail character.

[Incendergel]

Hit 40 yesterday and then went to go try DF for a bit.

 

My issue is that I've played SS from 0 to 40. Now trying to map keys and figure out what does what and when to do it is totally confusing Gives a new meaning to learn to play.

 

Did a few warzones just for the daily and try to understand what does what but going to go quest so I don't cause issues until I learn a bit more. Seemed fun - love the movement but honestly I'm clueless. Just threw all points in the DF tree with the exception of two in the middle tree for the increase in energy.

 

And yes, energy does go fast but I figured it is just my fault as I try to figure this out.

[Karast]

it helps to build gaps in the DF rotation to keep above 60% energy. Rotating in a flurry of bolts between your dots and abilities is what I do, and I do not typically have energy issues unless if I go for maximum burst on a target.

[GreckoTempest]

You get better mobility out of DF. You main dps comes from dots. You can pretty much stay constantly moving and just apply dots and hemo as you go and then LoS / hide behind objects which helps with survivability.

 

You do not lose all that much burst since you can still use cover and use aimed shot + sabo charge, and you have enough free points to buff those abilities.

 

You can get reduced CD's on your CC break and absorb, and a secondary slow / root break that comes in really handy when kiting.

 

You can also get a run speed boost with the reduced CD on dirty kick which is nice for kiting as well.

 

In both PvE and PvP since your dots and the bulk of the damage from wounding shots is internal high armor is not an issue.

 

With high crit and the energy on dot skill you can get really good energy return.

 

In PvE on boss fights that have mechanics that require you to be mobile you can do more dps. Think the sith boss in Esseles. The robot and optional boss in Taval V. The AoE slow is handy as well.

 

In PvP the dots prevent objective capping. So an 18 or 21 second dot before you die can give you enough time to run back or for help to come. It also allows you to do dps after you die. So if your getting heavily focused in a game and are dieing all the time, you can at least dot someone up as up die to do a bit of damage or get a kill.

 

*Ears Perk up*

 

might be droping Sabotur and going DF

o.O

[Infanta]

Im tempted to respec to

 

 

31df/10 sab

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#700ZrIZGbbkrrhzGR.1

 

Just not sure if i want to drop some skills for sharpshooter.

 

Comments

[heavy_meta]

I tried DF for a few days shortly after hitting 50, having leveled the whole way as SS and I have to say, the mobility and utility is amazing! Being able to run around DoT-ing people and then pillar humping is awesome. Energy management is definitely an issue if you're not paying close attention.

 

The main drawback I see is the cool down on our main abilities limits us to mostly single target, and the lack of DoT's (only two) limits the potential of wounding shots.

 

That said, I switched back to SS after a few days, mainly out of personal preference, but also I prefer the rotations of SS and I actually like the cover mechanic. I can definitely see why the people who promote DF builds really enjoy them though.

[Gaidax]

I'd say Lethality (DF for you, rebel scum!) has some very solid stuff going for it, mainly you basically (almost) don't need cover, so it is much more snappy and responsive since you don't have to deal with cover and all it's bugs and delays. You are also very mobile, which is great.

 

On the other hand, this build lives and dies with Wounding Shots, if it gets interrupted, pushed back, you get CCed mid-channel or some smart healer locates it's dispel button - you are screwed for the next 8-9 seconds until Wounding Shots get off CD.

 

Basically, instead of cover you get the whole new headache of setting up and praying your target gets all 3 seconds of Wounding Shots. Setup by itself is annoying because it relies on Shrap Bomb and Hemo Blast to the lesser extent, which come with a (relatively) fat CD, I seen quite a few occasions in PvP when I was targeting someone put dots on him and then some much higher priority target appears like a healer or ball carrier switches and you are pretty much screwed, because you need like up to 10 or so seconds before you can deal with it effectively and that is a disgustingly long time in PvP. Not even talking about Wounding Shots being interrupted or LoSed, which is an utter fail.

 

 

With SS on the other hand, the only ability that is really lost if you get interrupted is Speed Shot and even then if you like oh so much need it nao you can pop your 31 pointer, everything else will simply not fire, but won't trigger CD either. You also, naturally don't need to setup anything, you can flip targets and nuke them right away.