Hy_C Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 The irony is delicious because you are using a post from someone on my ignore list. I'm confused as to what that has to do anything with the numbers presented in the post. If you could look past the name on the quote and look at facts you would see reasons as to why a parser is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buur Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 ^^ This. Good players adapt. I doubt raid guilds are having much trouble with endgame content without the use of meters, and the players crying for meters are the ones most likely to abuse them. Yes, the people that don't want one and won't use one are very unlikely to abuse one. Great logical deduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trublmaker Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I'm confused as to what that has to do anything with the numbers presented in the post. If you could look past the name on the quote and look at facts you would see reasons as to why a parser is needed. Originally Posted by Cranberries Most people in this thread are *********** clueless so let me fill you in. Do you really want to place a gun in the hand of someone with this demeanor? I don't care if you have meters, but understand there are people who will abuse them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) I don't quite remember how Blizzard "let the addon community come to their rescue" since I was into pvp at the time. How exactly did they do this?Addons accelerated the process of clearing content. As players were stuck on Sunwell, Blizz initially let the addons take over so players could advance quicker. This promoted herding the masses into end game as quickly as possible so there'd be more support for WotLK expansion sales. By WotLK the raids were designed around the addons, to the point where if addons went away then end game would come to a screeching halt. That would have killed interest in buying the next expansion - not good for the bottom line. They've dug themselves a hole with addons to the point that all level-appropriate Cata heroic and higher content pretty much requires their use now. Edited January 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happylol Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Do you really want to place a gun in the hand of someone with this demeanor? I don't care if you have meters, but understand there are people who will abuse them. There are people that abuse chests in Ilum whats your point. People are going to go out of their way to act like complete idiots a LOT on the internet. Whether or not you have a meter that gives said idiots the facts they need changes nothing. I have a feeling that 95% of the people posting in this thread saying they do NOT want meters, have never competed in a competitive raiding guild(top 150 world). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I am fairly confident Bioware is already making mechanics that rely on these being defining elements. Bioware does not design a boss around the fact that people all do 2k DPS only, but they might design a boss with an enrage timer of lets say 5-6 minutes(which is the time for the first 2 bosses if i am not mistaken). if the above is true that means that Bioware is indirectly allowing the boss to be killed only if people do X DPS, in which case your whole argument goes out the window.I believe they are emphasizing more along the lines of mental agility, cunning and teamwork to beat the boss mechanics. As far as enrages, AoEs, shifting fields of play, add incursions, etc. there are audial/visual cues during the fights that raid aware players can learn to recognize with reps. Fights with low dps groups will just take longer to complete. If fights taking too long is a concern, then why play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trublmaker Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Yes, the people that don't want one and won't use one are very unlikely to abuse one. Great logical deduction. I'm sorry your post is incoherent. In case you missed my point I'll simplify: The people crying the loudest for meters, are the ones who will abuse them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guided_by_voices Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Addons accelerated the process of clearing content. As players were stuck on Sunwell, Blizz initially let the addons take over so players could advance quicker. This promoted herding the masses into end game as quickly as possible so there'd be more support for WotLK expansion sales. By WotLK the raids were designed around the addons, to the point where if addons went away then end game would come to a screeching halt. That would have killed interest in buying the next expansion - not good for the bottom line. They've dug themselves a hole with addons to the point that all level-appropriate Cata heroic and higher content pretty much requires their use now. very well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aryzyra Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I'm sorry your post is incoherent. In case you missed my point I'll simplify: The people crying the loudest for meters, are the ones who will abuse them. Yes. The raid guilds want to pug with you and abuse you. It's a clear and present danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buur Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I'm sorry your post is incoherent. In case you missed my point I'll simplify: The people crying the loudest for meters, are the ones who will abuse them. And your logic is incoherent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happylol Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I believe they are emphasizing more along the lines of mental agility, cunning and teamwork to beat the boss mechanics. As far as enrages, AoEs, shifting fields of play, add incursions, etc. there are audial/visual cues during the fights that raid aware players can learn to recognize with reps. Fights with low dps groups will just take longer to complete. If fights taking too long is a concern, then why play? Have you done the fights on HM/NM? The DPS requirements for the first boss in EV(droid) basically force you to stand in melee range and tank the missile barrages because of how tight the enrage is. I am fairly confident Bioware originally intended groups to dodge this behind the pillar, but the fact is time does not allow it. Even council(a 1v1 boss) forces you to solo a mob in 2 minutes, with literally 0 "agility, cunning, and teamwork" mechanics in the fight. It is 100% tank and spank by yourself. If Bioware made the fights have a 10 minute enrage and allowed you to beat the mechanics and not the DPS race I would LOVE that, but that is not the case currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guided_by_voices Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I believe they are emphasizing more along the lines of mental agility, cunning and teamwork to beat the boss mechanics. As far as enrages, AoEs, shifting fields of play, add incursions, etc. there are audial/visual cues during the fights that raid aware players can learn to recognize with reps. Fights with low dps groups will just take longer to complete. If fights taking too long is a concern, then why play? again, very well said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PjPablo Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Have you done the fights on HM/NM? The DPS requirements for the first boss in EV(droid) basically force you to stand in melee range and tank the missile barrages because of how tight the enrage is. I am fairly confident Bioware originally intended groups to dodge this behind the pillar, but the fact is time does not allow it. Even council(a 1v1 boss) forces you to solo a mob in 2 minutes, with literally 0 "agility, cunning, and teamwork" mechanics in the fight. It is 100% tank and spank by yourself. If Bioware made the fights have a 10 minute enrage and allowed you to beat the mechanics and not the DPS race I would LOVE that, but that is not the case currently. This ^ You even have groups not even bothering with tanks since they need the dps to beat enrage. That's a pretty weak design if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trublmaker Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I have a feeling that 95% of the people posting in this thread saying they do NOT want meters, have never competed in a competitive raiding guild(top 150 world). EQ1 <Caer Cadarn> Vazaelle alum here. A raid guild with many server-wide firsts and no meters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Have you done the fights on HM/NM? The DPS requirements for the first boss in EV(droid) basically force you to stand in melee range and tank the missile barrages because of how tight the enrage is. I am fairly confident Bioware originally intended groups to dodge this behind the pillar, but the fact is time does not allow it. Even council(a 1v1 boss) forces you to solo a mob in 2 minutes, with literally 0 "agility, cunning, and teamwork" mechanics in the fight. It is 100% tank and spank by yourself. If Bioware made the fights have a 10 minute enrage and allowed you to beat the mechanics and not the DPS race I would LOVE that, but that is not the case currently.All of this can be tweaked on the back end once dev becomes aware (if they aren't already) and makes time for it. Hopefully they'll read your post. Edited January 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happylol Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 This ^ You even have groups not even bothering with tanks since they need the dps to beat enrage. That's a pretty weak design if you ask me. I never really though of this. The fact is there is a lot of downtime on healing on some fights(mainly because the tank takes minimal damage and there is hardly any raid healing to be done) that bringing in a DPS tank would almost seem like the better option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSheriff Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I would like some version of a "Recount"-type tool. I would like such a tool to strictly track the player's stats. To make the tool useful, the ability to post specific aspects of the log within chat (using some specific colour) should be included. In such a situation, when someone enters a dungeon, pug or not, people are not in competition with each other for the highest DPS. The only time when people are really going to care about dps is when the group wipes. At that point, problems can be addressed specifically. Additionally, it would be nice if a player had the option to post a log to a "leaderboard" of some sort, where other players could compare their numbers with. It would simply take away the need to go online and manually track down logs for comparison. I'm sure there may be some flaws, but nothing that I see as impossible to resolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ichikitsune Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 There are people that abuse chests in Ilum whats your point. People are going to go out of their way to act like complete idiots a LOT on the internet. Whether or not you have a meter that gives said idiots the facts they need changes nothing. I have a feeling that 95% of the people posting in this thread saying they do NOT want meters, have never competed in a competitive raiding guild(top 150 world). Or there is a solution that will satisfy everybody that BW can implement. Beer with me In WoW a group can get the luck of a draw buff if it the number of guildies is less then x, the same only reverse can be applied here. Most people running operations will be doing so as a guild, if x% of the party is made up of guildies then everyone can view a meter that comprises of everyone in the group. Let's face it if you are not running in a guild and pugging something more often then not the dps meter is used as epeen waving. Parses and meters available to guild runs yes, parses and meters available for individual tracking (just on your character), parses and meters on a group of strangers.......it's begging for trouble. For instance that guy earlier in the thread calling everybody jack*** for just disagreeing with him or this one time I was once in a group that tried to kick a HOLY Pally because they were bottom on the dps meter. Personally I would rather have somekind of Omen threat meter or a Tidy Plate threat in game before a dps meter. That way it will be a bit easier for others to see when to back off if something happens to my threat before the mob/s peel off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trublmaker Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Yes. The raid guilds want to pug with you and abuse you. It's a clear and present danger. Raid guild does not automatically make you pro meter. I never said raid guilds were the ones crying the loudest for meters, good raid guilds are successful regardless of meters. Please stop misconstruing my statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) I never really though of this. The fact is there is a lot of downtime on healing on some fights(mainly because the tank takes minimal damage and there is hardly any raid healing to be done) that bringing in a DPS tank would almost seem like the better option.Integrates form, fit & function theorycrafting rather nicely? Edited January 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aryzyra Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Raid guild does not automatically make you pro meter. I never said raid guilds were the ones crying the loudest for meters, good raid guilds are successful regardless of meters. Please stop misconstruing my statements. I didn't make a blanket generalization like you did. I'll try to do better at emulating you: The people crying the loudest against combat logs are people who want to be involved in group play, but have no intention of contributing to group play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferroz Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) EQ1 <Caer Cadarn> Vazaelle alum here. A raid guild with many server-wide firsts and no meters!eq had damage meters (real time parsers) before it's first expansion. Maybe no one in that guild used them... I'm a bit skeptical though. More likely you just didn't know. Edited January 13, 2012 by ferroz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happylol Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Or there is a solution that will satisfy everybody that BW can implement. Beer with me In WoW a group can get the luck of a draw buff if it the number of guildies is less then x, the same only reverse can be applied here. Most people running operations will be doing so as a guild, if x% of the party is made up of guildies then everyone can view a meter that comprises of everyone in the group. Let's face it if you are not running in a guild and pugging something more often then not the dps meter is used as epeen waving. Parses and meters available to guild runs yes, parses and meters available for individual tracking (just on your character), parses and meters on a group of strangers.......it's begging for trouble. For instance that guy earlier in the thread calling everybody jack*** for just disagreeing with him or this one time I was once in a group that tried to kick a HOLY Pally because they were bottom on the dps meter. Personally I would rather have somekind of Omen threat meter or a Tidy Plate threat in game before a dps meter. That way it will be a bit easier for others to see when to back off if something happens to my threat before the mob/s peel off. Honestly, this is fine minus the fact that pug raids with friends not guilded would probably want meters. I think the best option would be for each person to be able to turn their ability to be tracked on and off. This way guilds will require it to be tracked, while pugs and FP's have the option. The main problem I see with, is that some people(the same people that would cause meters to have issues) would probably require meters on in order to join their group. As to your threat meter point- I think this is more damaging than any meter can be. A threat meter that gives you information already NOT available is making the game easier, and I think is actually opposite of what most people in this thread want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avrose Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Holy crap is it really that important? 60 pages? And don't say many people want it because I been watching the same people post over and over again. Yes its a hot topic but doesn't mean we need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Holy crap is it really that important? 60 pages? And don't say many people want it because I been watching the same people post over and over again. Yes its a hot topic but doesn't mean we need it.Hehe . . . that's just this thread. Should have seen the 200+ from the previous two! Or was it 300+ from the previous three? Edited January 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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