Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[guided_by_voices]

1) Disagree all you want, the fact of the matter is that enrage mechanics are NOT a response to recount, nor is a meter necessary to beat an enrage timer, however if you are NOT beating the timer that meter is extremely useful in determining why. Without it there is simply no way of gauging the individual performances inside of a group. And it turns out that sometimes that is important. Your solution is to remove the enrage timers (make the fights easier). My solution is to figure out who is not doing their share and either correct them or remove them.

 

2) Is this one of those thing where you feel like guns create criminals, too? Jerks will be jerks, ninja will be ninja and killers will be killers. If you limit everyone else's access to tools because some people misuse them you are doing it wrong. The same guy that's making fun of you for low DPS on the meter would just find something else to be a dick about. The same people who don't care enough to be a dick in other ways aren't magically going to manifest the jerk-gene because you showed them how much you are underperforming.

 

3) DBM has nothing to do with the conversation. Completely left field, read the thread title. Your contention is that recount/meters will be a way for some players to abuse others. If that is grounds for keeping it out why not remove all ways that players can abuse each other? By opting for a blanket ban on meters you are opting for a blanket ban on a topic of conversation, essentially. One that is important to the play of a lot of people (apparently).

 

4) Recount has nothing to do with boss mechanics or how you manage them. It is a measuring stick and nothing more. It does not tell you how to play, where to move, when to move, when to DPS on/off, when to interrupt, what to interrupt, who to heal, how to heal, when to heal, what heal to use, how to gain threat, when to gain threat, when to dump threat or anything else.

 

But, when something goes wrong... when a group is consistently hitting enrage timers and everyone swears they are doing the most damage they can, how exactly would YOU recommend we determine who the weakest link is?

 

you completely twisted everything i said:eek:

 

1- i said enrage timers were a lazy and boring mechanic and recount makes them easy. after 15+ years of MMO's we should be demanding more. even with them recount is not needed to beat them. and i never said enrage timers were a result of recount. said recount was a result of enrage timers.

 

2- i will vote against anything that helps tear the community of the game apart. something all you so called "hardcores" seem to be determined to do.

 

3- you brought up several addons beside recount (combat logs first). I simply gave a more accurate addon example

 

in answer to your last question. trial and error.

[Cahleb]

recount makes them easy.

 

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand this argument. How does knowing how much damage/healing/etc that your group is doing change the mechanics of any combat?

[Donniemac]

Damage meters are necessary tools but by the same token they breed elitism. Yes I would love to know how much DPS I'm pulling in an instance especially as a sorcerer DPS Spec. What I don't want it to bring into the game is contentious, reprehensible behavior that made other games simply not worth playing anymore.

 

Right now I see a community that for the most part is helpful towards players. And I hope that pattern remains so that new players will be more likely to come and make the game more enjoyable especially since its largely geared toward grouping to clear instances.

 

Bring on the damage meter to be used as a tool to make ourselves better players.. But check your elitist, holier than thou behavior at the door and help your fellow player help you. In that respect I can see Bioware's hesitation.

[Deyjarl]

 

Pot calling the kettle black? If the option exists that those people can do their napkin math and you can just ignore said option entirely then it does not impact you. Everyone wins in that situation. You can carry on with your life ignoring it and they can do what they consider fun. Why is removing player choice a good thing?

 

Its a waste of developers time for one. So it does affect me.

 

Even if its only a minority group, even if its only a few people that abuse it and I'm forced to deal with them.

[Deyjarl]

addons made the game easier to play (i do not see how anyone could ague against this). content gets cleared faster and players want more more more, now now now. having developers rush content with crappy mechanics. and worse have to develop content with these addons in mind.

 

 

 

QFT, another area things like this affect those who don't use or want them.

[Deyjarl]

Yes

 

So that I, and everyone else, can learn to play our characters more effecitvely.

More information is never bad, its what you choose to do with that information that determins its worth.

 

You can can learn to play more effectively without recount. Its a crutch.

[Deyjarl]

you don't need recount to figure this out its just does it for you really fast.

 

Argument against since as you say, its not needed, just does it faster (ala easier).

[maxetius]

I must be teh optimum!! I could be missing on 1% Overall Effectiveness! That 1% will make or break raids, Bioware!!

 

 

Seriously: No. I dont want a minmax munchkin ******* looking over my shoulder to tell me im not playing to my 'optimum output' etc.

 

I do, however support a combat log.

[CapitaFK]

This thread makes it easily obvious who is capable of hardcore endgame raids and who isn't.

 

P.S. I'm all for recount.

 

P.P.S. I don't know of any world top guild that doesn't use recount and/or worldoflogs to determine who in their guild isn't performing to their standards.

 

P.P.P.S. Luckily SW:ToR doesn't have complex encounters yet that would necessitate the use of addons.

Edited January 12, 2012 by CapitaFK

[Teslorian]

I get enjoyment from knowing I'm excelling at what i do. I like to fiddle with talents, gearing, I suppose my companions in this game.

 

With no recount type thing I can't tell when I'm maybe in the big picture not using certain abilities or procs enough. Are my companions helping a lot or not much? Who knows? Often an ability I spend quite a lot of time doing actually does very little dps in the end and I would be better off spending talent points elsewhere than buffing a small piece of the pie. There is no way at all to know this right now I'm just pressing butans.

 

I also want to know what happened to me when I die was it something that could not be healed through I should have avoided or maybe the healer was asleep and I don't need to change my play.

 

Was the tank taking too much dmg to heal through or was the healer not putting on his/her big kid healer boots that pull? did we need to use more CC or was the healer asleep? Is the tank really taking as much of the dmg as he should or is it spread through the group and the healer being unfairly taxed? Who knows?

 

Who is breaking the CC maybe that BH doesn't know his rockets are screwing things up.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Teslorian

[CapitaFK]

Recount is excellent for gauging how to improve, and any good raider knows this.

 

I guess I'll elaborate on my previous post. As an endgame raiding Hunter on WoW, I knew that Auto Shots were 35% of my total damage, so I learned to "stutter step" during times when I'd have to move to maximize DPS, as opposed to breaking Auto Shots to sprint somewhere and losing DPS. I also knew when to blow my cooldowns, i.e. Recount told me stacking Haste buffs netted more DPS than staggering them, so I waited for a Shaman to use Bloodlust before I used my buff. I learned that the procs from my T9 gear gave more DPS than higher GearScore non-set items, so I laughed at all the people who geared for higher GearScore instead of set bonuses. I learned that my fellow Hunter wasn't using "stutter steps" to get all his Auto Shots off, therefore while my total DPS was 17,000, his was around 14,000 with the same gear.

 

3,000 DPS is a lot of damage to be missing against a progression boss that could wipe you at any moment. Now say 6 other people in the raid are pulling 3,000 less DPS than they're normally capable of, and that's 21,000 DPS lost. Consider that an average fight could take 5 minutes, which is 300 seconds. Now multiply 21,000 by that amount and that's 6,300,000 potential damage over the course of 5 minutes. That's more than enough boss HP to determine whether your group will wipe or not.

 

Having this information is essential to endgame raiding (assuming endgame content is even as difficult as in WoW hard modes). So anyone who says damage parsing is useless has obviously never been good enough to be invited to an endgame progression guild.

 

EDIT: Yes, I've played endgame with no recount as well. I was in an HNM/Sky guild in FFXI. The difference is that the mechanics in either game were so vastly different. WoW bosses had more gimmick abilities that made addons essential, while FFXI had more exploitable player abilities to make fights easier.

Edited January 12, 2012 by CapitaFK

[GalacticKegger]

inb4 a typical anti-meter derp says "If you are good, you should have been able to identify the bad player without Recount"

 

edit: oh wow I hate you galatic.

A toast then!

[DaxRendar]

Recount is excellent for gauging how to improve, and any good raider knows this.

 

I guess I'll elaborate on my previous post. As an endgame raiding Hunter on WoW, I knew that Auto Shots were 35% of my total damage, so I learned to "stutter step" during times when I'd have to move to maximize DPS, as opposed to breaking Auto Shots to sprint somewhere and losing DPS. I also knew when to blow my cooldowns, i.e. Recount told me stacking Haste buffs netted more DPS than staggering them, so I waited for a Shaman to use Bloodlust before I used my buff. I learned that the procs from my T9 gear gave more DPS than higher GearScore non-set items, so I laughed at all the people who geared for higher GearScore instead of set bonuses. I learned that my fellow Hunter wasn't using "stutter steps" to get all his Auto Shots off, therefore while my total DPS was 17,000, his was around 14,000 with the same gear.

 

3,000 DPS is a lot of damage to be missing against a progression boss that could wipe you at any moment. Now say 6 other people in the raid are pulling 3,000 less DPS than they're normally capable of, and that's 21,000 DPS lost. Consider that an average fight could take 5 minutes, which is 300 seconds. Now multiply 21,000 by that amount and that's 6,300,000 potential damage over the course of 5 minutes. That's more than enough boss HP to determine whether your group will wipe or not.

 

Having this information is essential to endgame raiding (assuming endgame content is even as difficult as in WoW hard modes). So anyone who says damage parsing is useless has obviously never been good enough to be invited to an endgame progression guild.

 

EDIT: Yes, I've played endgame with no recount as well. I was in an HNM/Sky guild in FFXI. The difference is that the mechanics in either game were so vastly different. WoW bosses had more gimmick abilities that made addons essential, while FFXI had more exploitable player abilities to make fights easier.

 

Everything you mentioned, every single thing, can be learned from Combat Logs and Analysis Tools outside the game (and Combat Logs are coming) - you don't need Recount, you don't need Addons, you just need information.

[CapitaFK]

Everything you mentioned, every single thing, can be learned from Combat Logs and Analysis Tools outside the game (and Combat Logs are coming) - you don't need Recount, you don't need Addons, you just need information.

 

Any parser is fine, be it from Recount or an outside website like World of Logs. Recount would be nice for getting readings on-the-fly, but I would actually prefer a more in-depth parse like World of Logs, which uses the actual combat log and timing, for analyzing fights. But even World of Logs needed an addon to log the combat events. Only way I see BioWare preventing this is to allow individuals to toggle extra information on/off (other players abilities, damage, heals, etc. instead of just their own), and being able to save the log to a file.

Edited January 13, 2012 by CapitaFK

[Twixted]

I believe this is a fine lie to walk. As many have posted already, there are some very good reasons for these things. You cant fix anything if you don't see the problem. However for all the good reasons there are for an in game GUI of damage meters, I think you would have to be delusional to not at least acknowledge they can be abused.

 

I think a good analogy would be comparing damage meters to cocaine. Just hear me out the analogy stands in this context.

 

When cocaine was first "invented" it was a wonder drug

 

(CNN) -- Long before drug cartels, crack wars and TV shows about addiction, cocaine was promoted as a wonder drug, sold as a cure-all and praised by some of the greatest minds in medical history, including Sigmund Freud and the pioneering surgeon William Halsted.

 

According to historian Dr. Howard Markel, it was even promoted by the likes of Thomas Edison, Queen Victoria and Pope Leo XIII.

 

Turns out this wonder drug is HIGHLY addictive and ended up being abused by the community. In that context i think the analogy of damage meters to cocaine stands.

 

Problem is we still cant fix a problem we don't see ( combat logs ) So the need is still there, we just need to make sure the proper controls are in place so this "drug" does not get abused. I think we can have the best of both worlds here, and have a few ideas to get that done.

 

A) make the option for the GUI damage meter of combat logs an option similar to the loot rules controlled by the party / operations leader. If your willing to leave a group because the leader sets the loot rules and threshold to what you don't deem is fair then leave simple as that.

 

B) only allow the meters in operations. Do you really want to see these meters posted after every fight in a flash point? I understand the need for combat logs much more than i do a GUI for damage meters.

 

C) only allow damage meters on training dummies. Again personally i feel training dummies are more important than an in game GUI for meters. Dummies would allow players to get a better feel for the clearly different combat flow of abilities in the game and work out rotations.

 

 

 

 

Metrics by themselves are a good thing, although you can use statistics to prove anything right?

[TheSkate]

You know what? You *********** win. I don't care anymore.

 

I've deleted my Level 50 and my alts. I've uninstalled and cancelled my sub.

 

That statement right there proves that Bioware doesn't want me as a customer.

 

Thank the higher powers, because I don't want someone with your attitude in the game either. Good riddance.

[TheSkate]

I agree with you 100%. Where did this assumption that DPS meters are an antisocial tool used to ostracize people? In essence its a tool that works for a social benefit and a group goal (if used apropriately) But like a hammer, you can use it to build a house, or you can use it to break windows and cause damage, but you still have the option to use the hammer or not.

 

Maybe it came from the biggest MMOs lfg spam that looked like this for the past couple of years: lfm dps for (insert name) encounter. MUST do 400k dps (even though we know it only takes 5k dps to beat all bosses in this encounter) or don't even reply to this lfg request because we will just make public fun of you and your spec/rotation/equipment/guild.

Your assumption that the tool would be used responsibly is a false hope anyone who played that other MMO knows to be a false hope.

[PjPablo]

Maybe it came from the biggest MMOs lfg spam that looked like this for the past couple of years: lfm dps for (insert name) encounter. MUST do 400k dps (even though we know it only takes 5k dps to beat all bosses in this encounter) or don't even reply to this lfg request because we will just make public fun of you and your spec/rotation/equipment/guild.

Your assumption that the tool would be used responsibly is a false hope anyone who played that other MMO knows to be a false hope.

 

There are going to jerks in game regardless. Easy to counter that scenario. Don't join those groups. Start your own - "LFM dps for XXX. No Minimum DPS requirement". Problem solved.

[Buur]

There are going to jerks in game regardless. Easy to counter that scenario. Don't join those groups. Start your own - "LFM dps for XXX. No Minimum DPS requirement". Problem solved.

 

People don't like to know that there are solutions to their self created problems.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Buur

[Katsushika]

I feel that Recount and threat meters are both important components of a modern MMO, Being able to see your dps after a raid you can work on parts of your game where you need to improve on. Small things like 1 wrong ability in your rotation could be the meaning of doing good dps/tps/hps or bad dps/tps/hps. You don't know your doing wrong or how to solve it until you actually know what the problem is.

 

Im all in favour of meters but hate to see them abused.

[Duckroll]

DPS meters are for WoW baddies, drooling over their keyboards as they link the damage output values for the group, to prove that, although they did cause the group to wipe 5 times, they totally did the most damage.

 

First they want DPS meters, next they will want panda jedi. No thankyou!

[Buur]

DPS meters are for WoW baddies, drooling over their keyboards as they link the damage output values for the group, to prove that, although they did cause the group to wipe 5 times, they totally did the most damage.

 

First they want DPS meters, next they will want panda jedi. No thankyou!

 

It's fun to generalize.

[dimster]

WoW has amazing mod support from what i remember... so instead of people making threads demanding mod support in Swtor, why don't they go to the WoW forums and demand a minor graphical overhaul and a lightsaber content update?

[StevenStarkill]

I've never seen anyone give a convincing argument AGAINST a damage meter like Recount. I suspect most people who do argue against it have simply had bad experiences with players using one. But as many many have already stated, it is that player that is the problem, not the meter. Jerks will be jerks.

 

Aside from that, I've been in a ridiculous number of random groups in WoW and people having a damage meter has caused wayyyy less problems than it has solved. When everyone in group is doing 20k dps but there's that one guy only doing 5k, at least you know who to kick instead of scratching your heads because you aren't getting past a dps race boss.

 

The inability to get past an encounter when you are grouped with random folks is quite frustrating. That is made infinitely more frustrating when you have absolutely no tools to figure out why it's happening.

[Kfab]

Meters aren't needed.

 

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/19850-swtor-enters-the-guinness-book-of-world-records

Does this sound like a game targeted towards the hardcore raiding niche? They will all be back to WOW after their 30 free days are up. Arguing over addons, macros, meters is pretty pointless unless this game that took years to be developed can be revamped and refocused in the next few weeks. I will miss reading these theads.

 

I simply can't wait. If you want meters that optimize dps rotation and cookie cutter specs, WoW is the game for you. I just wish people would stop trying to make this "WoW Wars".