LFG Tool is NOT Needed

[Halbe]

If you look at the impact all these convenience factors pioneered by WoW, they bear a lot of negative consequences for the game.

 

• Reducing a need to form a community, Guilds, etc.
  
• Reducing dependency on other players.
  
• Rewarding anti-social behavior.
  
• Promoting negative behavior (loot ninjas, etc).
  
• Removing consequences for ones actions.
  

 

To me it's just not worth it. The convenience factor versus the complete destruction of the community. There has to be a better solution out there which hasn't been found yet.

 

I do not wish to play world of warcraft. If I did, I would go play it. It's fully available and offering it's socially bankrupt community.

 

You can argue "well you can just not use the dungeon finder." till the end of time, but that absolutely does not address the incredibly negative effects that come along with it, and are unavoidable with it's existence.

 

So these things don't occur if a dungeon finder isn't present?

 

So there are NO GAMES in the previous, I don't know, forever, that didn't have crappy communities WITHOUT a dungeon finder?

 

No one ever ninja'd before Dungeon Finders?

 

No one was ever a jerk before Dungeon Finders?

 

You sure you're pinning the issue on the responsible party?

[WickedDjinn]

I guess my imagination must be pervasive, since it seems to have spread to the multitudes of people who say the same thing and are vehemently against a cross realm dungeon finder.

 

The results are readily observable and painfully apparent to anyone who has played WoW and is actually paying attention.

 

That is complete BS.

 

WoWs issues are do to size. You aren't going to get your cozy close nit feel anymore, period.

 

More importantly, you know what really happened when LFG came around? Millions of players ran dungeons that they never experienced.

 

Your idea of a community is nothing more than a smaller number of players even bothering with dungeons.

[Sargantas]

I think not.

 

Even at PEAK usage, by BWs own figures, there is an average of 1600 players on a server.

 

split that over factions, take out the sub 50s (which is probably the majority), factor out the ones pvp'ing, running with guild, questing, crafting, in space missions or whatever, and the pool of players is pretty damm small.

 

Out of which you have to find healer and tank willing to pug aswell as 2 dps.

 

So 1600 is like 500 republics 1100 empire, spread into levels leaving say max 30% of those are level 50 so around 300 level 50 players online at peak and maybe 40 are actively Lfg at one time. Easy to find a group with those numbers

[savagepotato]

So these things don't occur if a dungeon finder isn't present?

 

So there are NO GAMES in the previous, I don't know, forever, that didn't have crappy communities WITHOUT a dungeon finder?

 

No one ever ninja'd before Dungeon Finders?

 

No one was ever a jerk before Dungeon Finders?

 

You sure you're pinning the issue on the responsible party?

 

It has been outlined many... many... so many times why a cross realm finder makes this an issue.

 

Because. There. Are. No. Longer. Consequences.

 

If you don't have a community the community cannot police itself. Troublesome players will always exist. In a community where your name actually means something you are forced to think twice before you do something that will get you blacklisted.

 

Please don't continue to reuse this strawman over and over when it has been clearly explained a thousand times.

Edited January 10, 2012 by savagepotato

[Taroen]

So these things don't occur if a dungeon finder isn't present?

 

So there are NO GAMES in the previous, I don't know, forever, that didn't have crappy communities WITHOUT a dungeon finder?

 

No one ever ninja'd before Dungeon Finders?

 

No one was ever a jerk before Dungeon Finders?

 

You sure you're pinning the issue on the responsible party?

 

Are you trying to see how many strawman arguments you can fit into one post..?

[Cameirus]

That is complete BS.

 

WoWs issues are do to size. You aren't going to get your cozy close nit feel anymore, period.

 

Dont bother, you cant argue with this type of person.

 

 

HE does not like LFG.

 

HE does not like WOW.

 

HE left WOW.

 

HE needs to justify why he did that.

 

So HE blames the LFG.

 

Before, therefore because of it. Its a common fallacy, and pretty prevalent amongst anti-lfg.

I'll start buying it if they can explain the "anal" spam in wow chat, the apalling insults and childish crap which is endemic to the wow community from times before the LFG.

He does not realise that LFG was hugely sucessful, and that it opened up instances to a wide audience who never did them before and is a hugely sucessful feature.

 

Community is the people, and they are the same no matter what. Is he saying he will only act decently in a chat spam group? and would be a dick in LFG? I doubt it, but thats what he thinks of others. He has a very low opinion of others, and I wonder why. Personally I've never had awful experiences with LFG in wow or rift. sure you get the occasional dick, but you get them anyway on servers, just shrug it off and put them on ignore and never group with them again.

 

The ONLY problem, if it is a problem with wow LFG was that it incentivised it. Take out the marks you get as a reward and its entirely voluntary. In which case, make your chat spam "social" groups, and let others LFG if they want.

 

I've been in a few Chat spam groups in SWTOR, to be honest, its just like what the anti-LFG lobby portray LFG as, no chat, no socialising, people rolling on crap they dont need, rushing to the end, no coordination, skipping dialogue and ************ if people wont, then ditching the group if their loot doesnt drop (and wihtout LFG its back to the fleet for more chat spam to replace....).

[Kurnea]

It has been outlined many... many... so many times why a cross realm finder makes this an issue.

 

Because. There. Are. No. Longer. Consequences.

 

Within the context of cross-realm lfg, yes. There was and still is a vibrant raiding community for any players ambitious enough to kill something harder than LFR. When I left WoW, I knew a decent amount of people on the server, both in my guild and outside the guild. Any of the active raiding guilds talked to each other and kept up on each other's progress. Any time we were up against a hard boss, someone would go on about how some of the other guilds attempted it.

 

Anyone active in raiding would know that the community was alive and thriving.

If you don't have a community the community cannot police itself. Troublesome players will always exist. In a community where your name actually means something you are forced to think twice before you do something that will get you blacklisted.

 

Uh, your name still means something in WoW. There was a guy everyone talked about in my old guild that came off as a poor raid leader, the end result of which was nobody would raid with him. Meanwhile, I got asked to heal so often that I burned out, thus here I am.

[savagepotato]

That is complete BS.

 

WoWs issues are do to size. You aren't going to get your cozy close nit feel anymore, period.

 

More importantly, you know what really happened when LFG came around? Millions of players ran dungeons that they never experienced.

 

Your idea of a community is nothing more than a smaller number of players even bothering with dungeons.

 

I'm good with that. Dungeons should feel like an event, something substantial. In wow they feel like soulless non stop grind fest as you random through the same things over and over again to farm your set so you can raid.

 

Just hit the dungeon finder as many times as you can stand in a day and grind out those epics.

 

Yeah no thanks. Stop trying to turn every game you play into WoW.

 

It's like playing chess and complaining until you can use the checkers rules. Go play checkers if you want checkers.

[savagepotato]

Within the context of cross-realm lfg, yes. There was and still is a vibrant raiding community for any players ambitious enough to kill something harder than LFR. When I left WoW, I knew a decent amount of people on the server, both in my guild and outside the guild. Any of the active raiding guilds talked to each other and kept up on each other's progress. Any time we were up against a hard boss, someone would go on about how some of the other guilds attempted it.

 

Anyone active in raiding would know that the community was alive and thriving.

 

 

Uh, your name still means something in WoW. There was a guy everyone talked about in my old guild that came off as a poor raid leader, the end result of which was nobody would raid with him. Meanwhile, I got asked to heal so often that I burned out, thus here I am.

 

How does his name mean anything? For a fee he can have a new name, new character, new faction all on a different server where no one has ever heard of him. His name means nothing, no matter how hard he screws it up.

[MasterKayote]

LFG Tool with no cross server or instant porting.

 

The ONLY thing that does is remove the need to spam LFG, everything else remains exactly the same.

 

Now ... who here wants to argue that spamming LFG for hours is the sole reason communities stay tolerable and dont plummet to WoW's quality.

 

Go ahead ... I dare you.

[ferroz]

It has been outlined many... many... so many times why a cross realm finder makes this an issue.

and just as many times, it's been pointed out the flaws in each and every one of those imagined issues; how you're blaming the hammer for murder.

 

Because. There. Are. No. Longer. Consequences.

Putting periods between each word doesn't make it true.

 

There never were any real consequences. Cross server has nothing to do with that.

 

<snip>the community cannot police itself. Troublesome players will always exist.

quoted the correct part of that statement. Everything else is irrelevant/false

 

Please don't continue to reuse this strawman over and over when it has been clearly explained a thousand times.

I don't think you understand what a strawman is...

[savagepotato]

LFG Tool with no cross server or instant porting.

 

The ONLY thing that does is remove the need to spam LFG, everything else remains exactly the same.

 

Now ... who here wants to argue that spamming LFG for hours is the sole reason communities stay tolerable and dont plummet to WoW's quality.

 

Go ahead ... I dare you.

 

Really though, they could do just as well by reworking the system that they have. Make it more convenient to activate, make it so you can set flags such as class or instances you are looking for. Drastically improve the search functionality. The only difference then is that it is manual rather than automatically trying to match you with players.

 

WoW went through iterations of this too, it started out simple and eventually went whole hog because people just kept the complaint train going until it became full on cross server mayhem.

 

People absolutely will not stop complaining until it is exactly like WoW. Bioware has to be able to draw the line and keep that from happening.

Edited January 10, 2012 by savagepotato

[savagepotato]

and just as many times, it's been pointed out the flaws in each and every one of those imagined issues; how you're blaming the hammer for murder.

 

Putting periods between each word doesn't make it true.

 

There never were any real consequences. Cross server has nothing to do with that.

 

quoted the correct part of that statement. Everything else is irrelevant/false

 

I don't think you understand what a strawman is...

 

No I'm pretty sure you don't understand what a strawman is. I wasn't the only one that called you on it.

[Zodnom]

Villainizing the tool that Blizzard put into WoW is completely ridiculous.

The tool didn't destroy any community. It didn't cause people to ninja items or be rude to each other. The tool didn't cause the game to become a 'lobby game', as some people are calling it.

 

What the tool did was allow people to play World of Warcraft the way that Blizzard wanted people to play it.

They wanted to give people at max level something to do, and as of WotLK, running dungeons was something that most people (the non raiders, especially) could easily do. The Tool just let people do it more quickly, without constantly spamming the general chat.

By making the dungeons so rewarding, and providing a tool to provide extremely easy access, Blizzard made the focus of the end game into running dungeons.

That's what people spent all their time doing, because that's what Blizzard made the game all about.

 

If a similar tool was implemented into SWTOR, the only way the game's focus would be about flashpoints would be is if that's what Bioware intended. If their intent is for people to do quests, then they won't make the flashpoints more rewarding than the missions, or they'd give the players something else more rewarding to do.

 

The only way to progress through SWTOR is by doing the class quests. A LFD tool isn't going to change that at all.

In WoW, someone could level from 15-85 just using the LFD tool and never leaving town. But guess what? These aren't the same games, and they have completely different mechanics to them. So why do people keep claiming that bringing a tool from one game to another means they're going to have the same effect on this game as it did in another game? It's ridiculous!

 

One thing that the LFD tool did a great job at was letting the player know just what dungeons were available for which level. In SWTOR, there's nothing that tells you this information. I never know which one is right for which alt, where they are, how to get to them, or if I've just leveled past their relevance. A proper LFD tool could go a long way towards improving the leveling experience for everyone.

 

In conclusion, if you don't want Bioware to make SWTOR just about chain-running heroics all day, then focus on that. Don't put the blame on a tool that could be a very useful utility if designed and implemented properly.

[Kurnea]

How does his name mean anything? For a fee he can have a new name, new character, new faction all on a different server where no one has ever heard of him. His name means nothing, no matter how hard he screws it up.

 

You seriously think rerolling or transferring his character would fix everything? Decent raiding guilds rarely take new players based on their word alone, at the very least they'd ask about their raiding experience. Those guilds with higher reputation usually do a small background check(i.e., ask former guild leaders what you were like). Without such a background you'd at least have to run some trial groups with the guild to establish some credit.

 

All in all, it's very, very difficult to do well for yourself raiding-wise without having a positive reputation(or at the very least, being known for being a great player). Your name means quite a lot.

[Moricthian]

Dear Bioware:

 

Please imput a LFG tool:

 

I am not lazy, I literally spent 1.5 hours trying to get a group together for a flashpoint with no one wanting to go (during peak hours). I spammed LFG, I asked my guild, I asked other people's guilds, no one wanted to go. If I were lazy, I would have given up after 5 minutes.

 

I am in a guild. Sometimes people in my guild will run dungeons but more often than not, two healers are on and we still can't get goup comp (duel spec would solve this but thats for another thread). Some people are too high level, some people are too low level.

 

I ask people on my friends list but they can't for whatever reason.

 

I try to socialize but it doesn't work because the system is broken. I'm happy for everyone who is good at making friends and have no problems getting groups but I guess I'm just not as skilled or as likeable as them. I just want to experience the three flashpoints I still haven't done yet. A LFD will make that possible.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Moricthian

[savagepotato]

Villainizing the tool that Blizzard put into WoW is completely ridiculous.

The tool didn't destroy any community. It didn't cause people to ninja items or be rude to each other. The tool didn't cause the game to become a 'lobby game', as some people are calling it.

 

What the tool did was allow people to play World of Warcraft the way that Blizzard wanted people to play it.

They wanted to give people at max level something to do, and as of WotLK, running dungeons was something that most people (the non raiders, especially) could easily do. The Tool just let people do it more quickly, without constantly spamming the general chat.

By making the dungeons so rewarding, and providing a tool to provide extremely easy access, Blizzard made the focus of the end game into running dungeons.

That's what people spent all their time doing, because that's what Blizzard made the game all about.

 

If a similar tool was implemented into SWTOR, the only way the game's focus would be about flashpoints would be is if that's what Bioware intended. If their intent is for people to do quests, then they won't make the flashpoints more rewarding than the missions, or they'd give the players something else more rewarding to do.

 

The only way to progress through SWTOR is by doing the class quests. A LFD tool isn't going to change that at all.

In WoW, someone could level from 15-85 just using the LFD tool and never leaving town. But guess what? These aren't the same games, and they have completely different mechanics to them. So why do people keep claiming that bringing a tool from one game to another means they're going to have the same effect on this game as it did in another game? It's ridiculous!

 

One thing that the LFD tool did a great job at was letting the player know just what dungeons were available for which level. In SWTOR, there's nothing that tells you this information. I never know which one is right for which alt, where they are, how to get to them, or if I've just leveled past their relevance. A proper LFD tool could go a long way towards improving the leveling experience for everyone.

 

In conclusion, if you don't want Bioware to make SWTOR just about chain-running heroics all day, then focus on that. Don't put the blame on a tool that could be a very useful utility if designed and implemented properly.

 

 

Are you serious on this? You state the dungeon finder didn't make WoW a lobby game but you also state you could level from 15 to 85 without ever moving once by using the dungeon finder.

 

You constantly receive quests in TOR that point you toward the flashpoints for your level as you play. Their difficulty and intended level range is clearly indicated as well. What's more they are all easily accessible on the fleet.

 

You even have flashpoint shuttles down in every play field to take you back to the fleet instantly, in addition to an emergency fleet access ticket. How much more convenience do you need?

 

In SWG you had to wait 45 minutes for a shuttle to even zone from planet to planet, these days people have a meltdown because they even have to zone.

[StormDragonlord]

It is needed. And it should be implemented. if you don't like it NO ONE is stopping you from parking your character in Fleet and spamming 1/ for a group. Or better yet, form a group from that perfect guild which always has members on at the right time, willing to do a dungeon and in the desired level range. If not, go to your perfect friends list which is at cap and ask 3 people and they'll gladly drop anything they're doing and join you in their group.

 

I laugh at people that use ^ excuses to counter the LFG debate. Not EVERYONE (and I'm gonna go ahead and say most people) don't have the perfect guild or a robust friends list like you excuse-makers apparently have.

 

The tool IS NEEDED.

[HoneyBoy]

Are you serious on this? You state the dungeon finder didn't make WoW a lobby game but you also state you could level from 15 to 85 without ever moving once by using the dungeon finder.

 

So what? If a player wanted to level up by chaining dungeons through the dungeon finder instead of questing or pvping why the hell do you care? Does that rob you of your fun or something? If a similar tool was implemented into SWTOR, just don't use it, don't force your ideas of playstyle onto someone else in an MMO like this that's meant to reach a broader audience. How hard is that?

[savagepotato]

You seriously think rerolling or transferring his character would fix everything? Decent raiding guilds rarely take new players based on their word alone, at the very least they'd ask about their raiding experience. Those guilds with higher reputation usually do a small background check(i.e., ask former guild leaders what you were like). Without such a background you'd at least have to run some trial groups with the guild to establish some credit.

 

All in all, it's very, very difficult to do well for yourself raiding-wise without having a positive reputation(or at the very least, being known for being a great player). Your name means quite a lot.

 

You are mixing two comparisons.

 

The hardcore raid community is a completely separate entity and hardly related. The hardcore raiders seldom even interact outside the circle of their guild. They are a bubble unto themselves.

[Halbe]

It has been outlined many... many... so many times why a cross realm finder makes this an issue.

 

Because. There. Are. No. Longer. Consequences.

 

If you don't have a community the community cannot police itself. Troublesome players will always exist. In a community where your name actually means something you are forced to think twice before you do something that will get you blacklisted.

 

Please don't continue to reuse this strawman over and over when it has been clearly explained a thousand times.

 

My argument was a strawman? If you're going to accuse, please have a basic understanding of the term.

 

From Wikipedia, examples of a Strawman argument include:

 

1.Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.

2.Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[2]

3.Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments — thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[1]

4.Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.

5.Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.

 

I took each of your arguments and applied them SPECIFICALLY to instances with/without the use of a dungeon finder. That isn't a strawman, that's an attack on your arguments directly, pointing out the fallacy in your equation.

 

You're entire argument is a Deductive Fallacy. WoW's communities suck. Wow has LFD tools. LFD tools lead to bad communities.

 

Now, that that is out of the way. I was never refering to cross server LFD tools. I never said I was.

 

You people need to understand that just because WoW did it, doesn't mean that the implementation has to be exactly like WoW. A inter-server dungeon finder is fine, needed, and won't do anything to the community.

[Terans]

A server LFG channel will do.

[Zodnom]

Are you serious on this? You state the dungeon finder didn't make WoW a lobby game but you also state you could level from 15 to 85 without ever moving once by using the dungeon finder.

 

Yes, it seems you missed the point of my post.

 

The Tool didn't change the game. It's how they rewarded you for using it that changed the game.

 

The Tool didn't lock you into the capital cities and prevent you from going off and doing quests. The XP from killing the elites in dungeons was so much higher and easier than questing that made it a viable option for leveling.

[HoneyBoy]

You're entire argument is a Deductive Fallacy. WoW's communities suck. Wow has LFD tools. LFD tools lead to bad communities.

 

 

Exactly, people have bad experiences with WoW's LFD tool and assume that somehow that's a quantitative measure of WoW's community pre and post LFD tool implementation.

[donnajuan]

LFG is needed. A lot of the group quests are implemented near the end of questing on a planet, people only want to do the quest if they have it most people leave planets instead of waiting around for a group and the current LFG system only looks on a planet. Lets be honest, all LFG function in TOR really does is /who <comment> its basically like spamming trade without the global effect. Since people don't wait on planets to do groups because they are trying to level, a lot of content (developers time) gets skipped.

 

It probably wouldn't be as bad if the Heroic 2/4 were given at the start of a planet and I am sure this was overlooked because in BETA every is trying to do everything. In retail there are 2 extremes colliding, those rushing to 50 and those playing the story and people who fall in between, an LFG tool would bring them together. Meaning more groups and more players working as a team, which is obviously important to them if they have social points.