Current State of Mitigation in PvP.

[Mazikeen]

'Kollbjorn - {...} I just wanted to comment on one thing. I actually stumbled upon your blog while investigating this myself. You posted that you cannot shield kinetic or elemental damage, but can only shield weapon damage attacks. This isn't quite how shielding works. In fact, "weapon damage" attacks are not even a real type of damage. They just do whatever type of damage your weapon says it does, such as energy for lightsabers or kinetic for vibroblades.

 

There are four types of attack (Force, melee, ranged, and tech) and four types of damage (elemental, energy, internal, and kinetic). You can avoid and shield melee and ranged attacks, not Force or tech ones. If you look at the dueling experiments in your blog, all of the attacks that were never shielded were Force or tech attacks. The damage type does not actually have anything to do with shielding, only if armor or Mark of Power applies.'

 

Thank you for posting this, hairy Wookiee. Makes a bit of sense, I was wondering *** the difference was between ranged and tech for my BH/Sniper. I suppose I should work on upping my tech damage, then

 

The general logic behind this is sound. It's irritating, but sound

[trousersnake]

would really like to hear an official answer on this one. Is the shield intended to only absorb weapon damage or not!

 

Because right now, it really doesn't seem fair.

[Mazikeen]

would really like to hear an official answer on this one. Is the shield intended to only absorb weapon damage or not!

 

Because right now, it really doesn't seem fair.

 

Well, if you think about it, force damage (and apparently tech damage as well) is pure energy damage. Shields, armor, etc do not affect that by and stretch of logic. Melee and ranged is more physically-based and IS affected by both armor and shielding. So I'm taking it mean that shields are meant to compliment the effectiveness of armor, not act as 'the other half'

 

It also allows BioWare to design abilities, especially PvE mob abilities, to make certain encounters REQUIRE a tank. The higher the physical damage, the more a tank is needed

[trousersnake]

so it is not supposed to function like sage/inquisitor shields? Only smaller and proc based absorbs? Not sure, but aren't the tooltips the same? Like absorbing incoming damage or something.

[DredlyLB]

so to sum it up, shield generators are pretty much useless, go for the highest armor rating possible in order to mitigate damage dealt and just try not dieing?

[Kollbjorn]

so it is not supposed to function like sage/inquisitor shields? Only smaller and proc based absorbs? Not sure, but aren't the tooltips the same? Like absorbing incoming damage or something.

 

The tooltip for our shielding says "Chance that a successful melee or ranged attack will have its damage reduced by your shield." The Sith Inquisitor's shield says "Surrounds the target in a lightning shield that lasts 30 seconds and absorbs a high amount of damage." I think the Inquisitor shield effectively gives you bonus health, which would explain why it works on all sources of damage. It's probably better to just think of their spell as an absorb instead of a shield.

[chainsawsamurai]

Well, if you think about it, force damage (and apparently tech damage as well) is pure energy damage. Shields, armor, etc do not affect that by and stretch of logic. Melee and ranged is more physically-based and IS affected by both armor and shielding. So I'm taking it mean that shields are meant to compliment the effectiveness of armor, not act as 'the other half'

 

It also allows BioWare to design abilities, especially PvE mob abilities, to make certain encounters REQUIRE a tank. The higher the physical damage, the more a tank is needed

 

Except armor DOES affect Energy damage.

[chainsawsamurai]

The tooltip for our shielding says "Chance that a successful melee or ranged attack will have its damage reduced by your shield." The Sith Inquisitor's shield says "Surrounds the target in a lightning shield that lasts 30 seconds and absorbs a high amount of damage." I think the Inquisitor shield effectively gives you bonus health, which would explain why it works on all sources of damage. It's probably better to just think of their spell as an absorb instead of a shield.

 

Yes. It is effectively just bonus health rather than a true Shield.

 

Which is funny. Given the state of Shields, Defense, and Armor during an Acid Blade opener and how close everyone's HP values are, a Sorc is more likely to survive an Operative/Smuggler's ambush than anyone else.

[beliglath]

Tbh its even worse if you are a jugg, you only have 1 talent that reduces damage ( per se ) all the tanking tree is there to compensate for the rage penalty or to give us defense, i have been doing a lot of pvp with my tank and as the time passes i can tell you that every day i last less time alive, currently many classes have a lot of stuff to bypass all our defenses wich is really annoying wich is leading me to quit PVP or to go DPS.

[alamaurie]

Tbh its even worse if you are a jugg, you only have 1 talent that reduces damage ( per se ) all the tanking tree is there to compensate for the rage penalty or to give us defense, i have been doing a lot of pvp with my tank and as the time passes i can tell you that every day i last less time alive, currently many classes have a lot of stuff to bypass all our defenses wich is really annoying wich is leading me to quit PVP or to go DPS.

 

As a juggernaut tank I am thinking the same. It's very hard to justify myself in pvp =\

[chainsawsamurai]

Tbh its even worse if you are a jugg, you only have 1 talent that reduces damage ( per se ) all the tanking tree is there to compensate for the rage penalty or to give us defense, i have been doing a lot of pvp with my tank and as the time passes i can tell you that every day i last less time alive, currently many classes have a lot of stuff to bypass all our defenses wich is really annoying wich is leading me to quit PVP or to go DPS.

 

Uh, isn't that a good thing? The less Defense and Shield provided by your tree and the more bizarre other bonuses you get the better right?

 

I see one talent which looks like it needs you to actually Shield an attack to be useful. Our entire tree is built around it.

 

Through the rest of the tree I see:

 

-Making one of your CC's instant cast.

 

-Gaining another Stun (granted this just makes Warriors baseline since everyone else comes equipped with a 4s stun it seems).

 

-A 31pt talent which reduces armor and seems like it does a solid amount of damage (see: Heat Blast for comparison to what a ****** 31pt talent looks like).

 

-All the time Rage discounts on your main attacks

 

-Scream granting a bubble which, while minor, is entirely unaffected by the contents of this post and will always mitigate the amount of damage it says it will.

 

-A tanking "stance" which generates resource when taking Damage (unaffected by this post) rather than a talent requiring you to Shield an attack to generate resource (affected by this post). This "stance" also has 1% more flat mitigation.

 

--A talent which increases the frequency of your form generating resource when taking Damage (again, it doesn't require a broken mechanic to function).

 

-A phenomenal 40% damage reduction cooldown rather than Oil Slick which may very well be functionally useless against 5/8 classes in PvP.

 

 

So while you can't rely on your other mitigation sources as much as you thought you could, it looks like the Juggernaut tree is the least affected by these findings and the Immortal tree might have the most to offer out of the three tanking trees.

 

I'd step back, take a look at everything, reevaluate your gear and statting, and then go ahead and continue to enjoy Tank PvP and using Guard. Hell, I'd consider making a Jugg if I could stand the way their ridiculous armor looked.

Edited January 10, 2012 by chainsawsamurai

[beliglath]

Uh, isn't that a good thing? The less Defense and Shield provided by your tree and the more bizarre other bonuses you get the better right?

 

I see one talent which looks like it needs you to actually Shield an attack to be useful. Our entire tree is built around it.

 

Through the rest of the tree I see:

 

-Making one of your CC's instant cast.

 

-Gaining another Stun (granted this just makes Warriors baseline since everyone else comes equipped with a 4s stun it seems).

 

-A 31pt talent which reduces armor and seems like it does a solid amount of damage (see: Heat Blast for comparison to what a ****** 31pt talent looks like).

 

-All the time Rage discounts on your main attacks

 

-Scream granting a bubble which, while minor, is entirely unaffected by the contents of this post and will always mitigate the amount of damage it says it will.

 

-A tanking "stance" which generates resource when taking Damage (unaffected by this post) rather than a talent requiring you to Shield an attack to generate resource (affected by this post). This "stance" also has 1% more flat mitigation.

 

--A talent which increases the frequency of your form generating resource when taking Damage (again, it doesn't require a broken mechanic to function).

 

-A phenomenal 40% damage reduction cooldown rather than Oil Slick which may very well be functionally useless against 5/8 classes in PvP.

 

 

So while you can't rely on your other mitigation sources as much as you thought you could, it looks like the Juggernaut tree is the least affected by these findings and the Immortal tree might have the most to offer out of the three tanking trees.

 

I'd step back, take a look at everything, reevaluate your gear and statting, and then go ahead and continue to enjoy Tank PvP and using Guard. Hell, I'd consider making a Jugg if I could stand the way their ridiculous armor looked.

 

while i admit that the talents that give cc are awesome, they are still that CC, they are not reduction, when 2 powertechs are destroying your life with elemental damage you dont care about the CC or about attacks that reduce amor when so many ppl BYPASS IT.

 

all im saying its that it would be cool to have more +armor talents or more +damage or +reduction talents rather than "your attacks cost less rage" "you get more rage" "less rage on X attack" your X attack "shield you for almost no damage"

 

while its good on pve ( beacause its aoe its really lacking ) its no good in pvp where you dont get procs to use retaliation wich triggers more defense wich in turn gives us a buff that let us keep attacking without having to use our "basic" attack

 

edit: i would really need to test if the bubble is afected by the mitigation of the tank, because if its not its even more worthless than i tought ( it abosrbs about 500 damage every 12 secs )

Edited January 10, 2012 by beliglath

[Zidaen]

two threads have been opened based off chainsawsamurai initial info.

 

PVP forums- http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1445643#post1445643

test server forums- http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1445155#post1445155

 

 

I followed his tests on a Jugg friend of mine who is in a full set of Champ tank gear and immortal spec. His tests match my own. The vast majority of abalities in this game do not do "weapon damage" and are not mitigated by def/shield and a lot of those are also not mitigated by armor. Rendering the PVP tank gear less desirable than the damage gear.

 

Tank specs still have a place in PVP but not as a 31 point investment currently. Basically avoid investing in def/shield talents and go for damage talents in another tree instead. You remain equally "tough" and gain a large amount of damage.

 

Also, a few ingame tooltips showing "weapon damage" are wrong.

[Kollbjorn]

I followed his tests on a Jugg friend of mine who is in a full set of Champ tank gear and immortal spec. His tests match my own. The vast majority of abalities in this game do not do "weapon damage" and are not mitigated by def/shield and a lot of those are also not mitigated by armor.

 

Whether an ability says "weapon damage" or not has nothing to do with whether you can shield or defend against it. Shield and defense applies against melee and ranged attacks. While "weapon damage" abilities fall in these categories, they are not the only abilities that do so.

 

The other two types of attack, Force and tech, cannot be defended or shielded. Instead they can only be resisted (scroll over Defense Chance in game and you'll see what stat I'm talking about).

 

Abilities that say "weapon damage" only mean they do the damage type of your equipped weapon. If you are holding a lightsaber, that ability will do energy damage. If you swap it out for a vibrosword, that ability will now do kinetic damage. The type of damage an ability does has no bearing on whether it is shieldable. The only thing that affects this is the type of ATTACK it is.

[chainsawsamurai]

Whether an ability says "weapon damage" or not has nothing to do with whether you can shield or defend against it. Shield and defense applies against melee and ranged attacks. While "weapon damage" abilities fall in these categories, they are not the only abilities that do so.

 

The other two types of attack, Force and tech, cannot be defended or shielded. Instead they can only be resisted (scroll over Defense Chance in game and you'll see what stat I'm talking about).

 

Abilities that say "weapon damage" only mean they do the damage type of your equipped weapon. If you are holding a lightsaber, that ability will do energy damage. If you swap it out for a vibrosword, that ability will now do kinetic damage. The type of damage an ability does has no bearing on whether it is shieldable. The only thing that affects this is the type of ATTACK it is.

 

Semantics.

 

Melee and Ranged attacks all list as Weapon Damage in their respective tooltips. Check for yourself. Nothing I said in my original post is incorrect.

 

Stating Weapon Damage in the OP makes it easier for people to browse TORhead or their own toolbars to see what will and will not be affected by Shield/Defense chance rather than having to further browse through Ability panes or TORhead filters to see what is Tech or Force and what is Ranged or Melee.

 

It also brings the gravity of the situation into view, because saying "Melee and Ranged" makes you logically think that nearly everything should be affected, as I did when I initially appraised how my defensive statistics work. Stating it as "Weapon Damage" makes people do the homework and realize how boned they are.

 

 

The game currently exists in a climate where you can dodge a Lightsaber but not a knife from an Operative or a Rocket Punch. Is one less "melee" than the other? No. That's why I wrote things the way I did.

 

The mechanics currently allow you to Shield a high velocity Sniper round, but not flying pebbles. Is one less "ranged" than the other? No. That's why I wrote it the way I did.

Edited January 11, 2012 by chainsawsamurai

[inhanzt]

Semantics...

 

 

Must agree; this entire thread makes me feel quite cheated for picking a tanking spec, though jet charge is addictive...

[Tylerlee]

Atleast give a mention to Sniper who are actually one of the most balanced classes vs tanks, as every single one of our main shots are Weapon Damage.

[chainsawsamurai]

Atleast give a mention to Sniper who are actually one of the most balanced classes vs tanks, as every single one of our main shots are Weapon Damage.

 

I did mention Snipers and saber wielders in the OP. They've come up a couple of times since then.

 

At least give mention that you didn't bother to read the thread before making a post that lets us all know you didn't bother to read the thread.

Edited January 11, 2012 by chainsawsamurai

[GuardianDW]

Still awaiting dev comment on whether or not this is intended. It'd be nice to know, so I can either write off my Juggernaut as a waste of time or have any hope they'll FIX THIS.

[NoNeedforCavalry]

I did mention Snipers and saber wielders in the OP. They've come up a couple of times since then.

 

At least give mention that you didn't bother to read the thread before making a post that lets us all know you didn't bother to read the thread.

 

Dude, chill out some.

 

Read a few of the threads you have started, and you have some interesting things to say.

 

I for one will probably try out AP after learning this information about te shield/defense.

 

No reason to keep jumping on people that actually care to post in your threads though.

 

As far as guard is concerned, the tooltip states that is reduces damage by 5%, reduce aggro by 25%, and transfers 50% of enemy player damage to the tank.

 

The last part works in pvp.

The second part works in pve.

It would be interesting to see for sure if the first part works in both pvp and pve, as well as if it is applie before or after sending the damage to the tank.

[Trungalung]

Dude, chill out some.

 

Read a few of the threads you have started, and you have some interesting things to say.

 

I for one will probably try out AP after learning this information about te shield/defense.

 

No reason to keep jumping on people that actually care to post in your threads though.

 

As far as guard is concerned, the tooltip states that is reduces damage by 5%, reduce aggro by 25%, and transfers 50% of enemy player damage to the tank.

 

The last part works in pvp.

The second part works in pve.

It would be interesting to see for sure if the first part works in both pvp and pve, as well as if it is applie before or after sending the damage to the tank.

 

It doesn't include players. It just says "enemies".

[NoNeedforCavalry]

It doesn't include players. It just says "enemies".

 

I see that now. Must be a typo as all the other guard skills including the one for vanguard state "enemy player"

[Hamchuck]

Dude, chill out some.

 

Read a few of the threads you have started, and you have some interesting things to say.

 

I for one will probably try out AP after learning this information about te shield/defense.

 

No reason to keep jumping on people that actually care to post in your threads though.

 

As far as guard is concerned, the tooltip states that is reduces damage by 5%, reduce aggro by 25%, and transfers 50% of enemy player damage to the tank.

 

The last part works in pvp.

The second part works in pve.

It would be interesting to see for sure if the first part works in both pvp and pve, as well as if it is applie before or after sending the damage to the tank.

 

CSam already addressed this on the second page, 4th post down. The tooltips read as follows:

 

Our tooltip: "... In additon 50% of all damage from enemies is transferred back to you."

 

The tooltip on the Guard buff (applied to your target): "Damage taken and threat generation reduced. Redirecting 50% of damage from players."

 

The tooltip on your ability and the one on the buff are different. The one powertechs have is not specific enough while the one on the guarded player is. This needs to be consistent.

[BallaRa]

ChainsawSamurai: Feel free to add this sum-up to the original post. :-)

 

NOTE: This is a sum-up by me, of work done by ChainsawSamurai, Taugrim, Kollbjorn and others. The only thing I've tested myself is that mobs (at least "gold" ones) have the same variety of attack types, and thus some of them bypass shield entirely). The rest of this is based on the works of other people, I'm just trying to put it in a easy-to-read format.

 

==========

 

DEFENSE, SHIELD and ARMOR - short version

 

* All three work in any direction.

* At least Shield and Armor work while stunned (has been tested). I'm not sure about defense(?).

 

-----

 

There are 4 different attack types and 4 different damage types in the game (afaik).

 

Attack types:

* Force

* Melee

* Ranged

* Tech

 

Damage types:

* Elemental

* Energy

* Internal

* Kinetic

 

-----

 

Different attack types and damage types bypass different parts of Defense, Shield and Armor. Putting these in a "table" with Defense, Shield and Armor notes, we get the following:

					[color="Cyan"]Force or Tech[/color] attack				[color="Cyan"]Melee or Ranged[/color] attack
[color="Yellow"]Elemental or Internal[/color] damage	[color="Red"]No armor[/color] + [color="Red"]No defense & shield[/color]		[color="Red"]No armor[/color] + [color="Lime"]Full defense & shield[/color]
[color="Yellow"]Energy or Kinetic[/color] damage		[color="Lime"]Full armor[/color] + [color="Red"]No defense & shield[/color]		[color="Lime"]Full armor[/color] + [color="Lime"]Full defense & shield[/color]

 

-----

 

NOTE: These mechanics are true for both PvP and PvE. (But in PvE the majority of mobs do melee or ranged attacks, with kinetic damage, so all three of Defense, Armor and Shield remain very useful.)

Edited January 11, 2012 by BallaRa

[chainsawsamurai]

I know you did your entire chart for the sake of completeness, but I figured I'd bring up that I don't think there is a single Melee or Ranged attack that is classified as either Internal or Elemental.

 

I'll throw that summary up in the FAQ post I reserved.