Dirty Fighting Scoundrel Useless

[Preeebs]

not lvl 50 yet, but from the few wz i tried with my new build i do pretty wel. I get alot less kills and killing blow, but i do alot more dmg. And its so easy to keep ppl off capping tower/door when i have dot that last 20 sec.

 

in other words scrapper was more 1 man build and the other build feels more like a team based build. just my opinion btw.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Preeebs

[Flameblood]

I've both dps in ops and pvp with DF for quite a while. It all comes down to gear. True they dont really realize they will die until their hp drops below 30%. It's a fun spec coz its not based so much on stealth, which can be broken by any idiot's random aoe... plus it gives u some versitality. Tendon Blast is a waste of energy, the bomb slows enough and no1 bothers to kite u, u do too little brust dmg. But Wounding Shots are worth it. It does, in pvp, around 2k dmg not crit (though i supsect the hermorage is considered a dot tick, u do realize the effect) that is slightly more than Sucker Punch which does around1,5k without the flying fists (with it, its the same). Sure we do get an upperhand problem but if u think of it u dont depend on ur upper hand or stealth. That is the point of that tree. It tries to pull the scoundrel away from the... scoundrel's mechanics... if that makes sense. Although a way to generate upper hand would be sweet, more important would be the increase of punishment a dirty fighter can receive, so the dots can take effect. Also, hemmoraging shots (last talent) would be welcome as a 30y range to be able to properly dot an enemy in range, giving more versitality to the scoundrel and making him/her alot less dependant on stealth and even upper hand...

[archaichoney]

I lul at people who say dirty fighting is worthless. Know how to play it ffs.

[Bhorzo]

In objective-based PVP, dirty fighting is OP. 18s dots, and a 21s AOE dot. Dot's prevent capping of objectives. I can (and have) single-handedly hold off 5 people from capping a node. They can kill me, but many, many, many times I can rez and get back and they are STILL dotted up and haven't been able to cap. I then DOT bomb them again.

 

I'm sure at 50 this will be less of an issue with people having some sort of "cleanse" mechanic... but so far I haven't seen a single person, EVER, remove my DOT to cap an objective. And I've PVPed a bit and I'm at rank 30-something.

 

I'm sure people will eventually figure it out, or they'll nerf DOTs (to not interfere with capping). But I like it.

 

I top damage in warzones, but going in for the kill is a little more tricky than with some other classes. The only real drawback to the mass-DOTing is that if you're playing with skilled players who CC, your DOTs may break it... so I assume this kinda play-style won't take you far in the upper skill-levels of play.

 

But in PUGs it's tremendous fun. I've single-handedly won games for our team with my DOT-die-rez-reDOT technique. Topping damage is nice too, though I'm only about to turn 50 soon, so I can't say if it'll stay that way at max level.

[Leilei]

The more damage from bleed effects shot does NOT count as a DoT but the 2 ticks of damage you get from using wounding shot on a guy who has vital shot and shrap bomb will take 2 stacks off the 30% more damage for periodic effects thing.

[Vykran]

DF is not a pure ranged or melee build. It's a sort of a hybrid for Scoundrels, which is why it's not as "powerful" as the Scrapper tree. However if played correctly, and seeing as this is a DoT spec that requires your full attention, can be a great tree. All it takes is a little bit of fooling around and a lot of patience but if you can endure it then you will probably be able to **** the face off most melee classes.

[Malleable]

I'm going DF. I wanted a healing stealther with AoE damage and ranged DPS. That would be Scoundrel.

 

Honestly if they just increased the range on Wounding Shot, Vital Shot and Hemorrhaging Blast I think the tree would be decent - and equal in value to Scapper and Sawbones.

 

Mal

[Aetou]

The biggest issue with Dirty Fighting in PVP is getting Upper Hand. Sure, sometimes I can Blaster Whip mid-fight but getting and staying within 4m is hard against targets that weave like crazy. I actually find that I rely mostly on Shrap Bomb, Vital Shot, Hemming Blast and then... Quick Shot. I get the occassional Whip against a CCed target which then turns into massive hurt as Wounding Shot follows up but... its pretty rare. (I'm a Level 50 who generally places above average in Warzones.)

 

All that we really need is to have a better way of regaining Upper Hand in PVP. While I have the two points in Sawbones to let me generate it pre-fight it is very hard to get Underworld off in the middle of a fight due to the two second freeze it requires. I think my ideal solution would be to make Hemming Blast also grant Upper Hand as it would prevent helping out other builds while pretty much solving everything as the CD on Blast is already long enough to prevent spamming.

[antiviolence]

DF oh DF. How I hate you so and yet you still somehow make it fun.

DF makes my scoundrel feel like a yoyo. Moving from 30m to 10m to 4m then pull back to 30m. Rinse and Repeat.

DoTs are easily out healed by a healer even with Hemo Blast Kinda disappointing.

[torhent]

I beat Dirty Fighting specced scoundrels in warzones by 100K damage as a scrapper. Whenever I see a scoundrel using that spec, I LMFAO.

 

Shrap Grenade is the only benefit to using the ability and to maximize your DPS you have to hit groups preferably of three people. While the grenade is ticking you can't stealth. So you are essentially fighting in the open for people to completely destroy you. You have a 3 second delay to apply vital shot, sharp grenade and hemorrhaging blast before you can apply your main damage wounding shot. During that time you are taking at least 3 seconds of damage. You are going to have to apply 2 wounding shots to get a kill. AND you are going to need the energy to do it.

 

Sharp = 20 energy

Vital Shot = 20 energy

Hemorrhaging blast = 10 energy

Pistol whip (to get upper hand proc to do wounding shot) = 15 energy

75 energy spent in 4 seconds

 

Now you apply your main damage:

Wounding Shot = 25 energy

 

Congratulations, in 5 seconds you just spent 100 energy to get 1 kill assuming you didn't get CC'd. Most likely you are at 30 to 40 energy now and you are trying to find someone to pistol whip to try to use pugnacity again, UNSTEALTHED and waiting to be killed.

 

Dirty Fighting for Scoundrel is one of the most horridly designed skill trees I've ever seen.

 

note: If my energy numbers are off, sorry I uninstalled SWTOR a few weeks back so I don't have all of the numbers up I'm doing this off memory.

[Vicid]

I beat Dirty Fighting specced scoundrels in warzones by 100K damage as a scrapper. Whenever I see a scoundrel using that spec, I LMFAO.

 

That's funny cuz when most Operatives running concealment see me wounding shot them they vanish and a few seconds later a corpse appears on the ground.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Vicid

[torhent]

That's funny cuz when most Operatives running concealment see me wounding shot them they vanish and a few seconds later a corpse appears on the ground.

Its funny because when an Operative running their version of dirty fighting tries to kill me, I have my cleanse hotkeyed and I remove both dots, pull dissapearing act and then destroy the Operative. If you are fighting a sloth who is a clicker then yes you can kill them, but if you are fighting anyone who can use more than 20 keybinds you are done.

 

 

Dirty Fighting is a gimped spec and people running it need some help.

[Chronomodra]

Its funny because when an Operative running their version of dirty fighting tries to kill me, I have my cleanse hotkeyed and I remove both dots, pull dissapearing act and then destroy the Operative. If you are fighting a sloth who is a clicker then yes you can kill them, but if you are fighting anyone who can use more than 20 keybinds you are done.

 

 

Dirty Fighting is a gimped spec and people running it need some help.

 

If you think a spec needs to be buffed, that's fine. But there's no need to insult the people who are trying it out, or prefer its playstyle.

[Vicid]

I'll admit that's a good point... but disappearing act isn't always up.

 

Dirty fighters top the charts on damage for a reason. They're always in a fight. How often are you trying to get away from combat so you can stealth up? I know scrapper is amazing from stealth but that's all you do. Dirty fighters can attack from stealth too but once that's done they continue to deal damage and when the time is right burst people down.

[torhent]

If you think a spec needs to be buffed, that's fine. But there's no need to insult the people who are trying it out, or prefer its playstyle.

 

I've done 6 months of Beta playing the scoundrel exclusively in all specs. In release I've played all specs as well. I've already had one former guildie try out dirty fighting after I told him how gimp it was, and after a few days he was disgusted with it.

 

Dirty Fighting is a crap spec, there is no way around it. Its for people who can't play as a stealther. If you are playing as a stealther, then you have to attack from stealth and pick your fights. Meanwhile, dirty fighting requires you to hit three people at a time with shrap bomb which prevents you from stealthing AND it requires at least a 3 to 4 second build up where you are exposed to be CC'd before you can actually do damage.

 

So yes, people who are playing that spec do need help. You should be able to figure out the limitations by looking at the abilities and energy cost before even speccing in it. After playing the spec for 20 warzones, it should become apparent of the extreme short comings of the spec.

[offbeatpaladin]

I'll admit that's a good point... but disappearing act isn't always up.

 

Dirty fighters top the charts on damage for a reason. They're always in a fight. How often are you trying to get away from combat so you can stealth up? I know scrapper is amazing from stealth but that's all you do. Dirty fighters can attack from stealth too but once that's done they continue to deal damage and when the time is right burst people down.

 

You can do the same thing on a Scrapper by simply not using Sucker Punch on every Upper Hand. You can burst just fine out of stealth with minimal setup effort. If you think that 'all you can do' is burst from stealth, you need to rethink your scrapper tactics.

[torhent]

I'll admit that's a good point... but disappearing act isn't always up.

 

Dirty fighters top the charts on damage for a reason. They're always in a fight. How often are you trying to get away from combat so you can stealth up? I know scrapper is amazing from stealth but that's all you do. Dirty fighters can attack from stealth too but once that's done they continue to deal damage and when the time is right burst people down.

 

 

 

I was never topped by Dirty Fighting in a Warzone nor did I ever see Dirty Fighting top any Warzone Chart. Before I unsubscribed, I was at 62 Valor. Could you reliably break at least 300K damage AND have zero deaths? I was able to with Scrapper.

 

Scrapper wins the DPS race as long as the player whose playing a Scrapper is playing well. A well played Dirty Fighter is going to do 25% less DPS than a well played Scrapper.

 

Meanwhile, a crappy Scrapper is going to do a lot less damage than a crappy Dirty Fighter because both characters are going to die quick, the difference is that the Dirty Fighter can toss Shrap Grenades to get some AE damage.

 

I have no issues staying in stealth. You always pick and choose your fights and attack those opponents that are solo, in the rear or players who at 50% health so you can quickly kill them. Hell at times I was able to lure the 50 Imperials to attack me solo behind walls so I could quickly pop stealth and kill them without allowing someone to dot me. I normally attack those injured, pop Smuggler for an immediate stealth, and then find the next low health or solo player. For most attacks its 4 v 4 and I can take out with help from the group 3 of the opposing teams player in the first 2 minutes no problem. For the next three minutes (waiting for Smuggle to repop in 3 min, and dissapearing act in 2 min), I'm playing my attacks very careful and I can easilly waste the agressors. Again, helping my team take down people who they have down to 50% or less health. When they finally do get a dot or get me in combat, I run away to a number of hiding places that I know and I reheal myself to 100% and in 10 seconds I can restealth.

 

That is what playing a stealth class is about, doing massing damage by attacking those players already injured, taking none yourself and not dying in a warzone. You greatly help your team, you get large warzone numbers, decent medals and you take a large number of MVP votes boosting your valor points.

 

Or you can play as a stealther as a Dirty Fighter where the majority of the time you are exposed in the open, being extremely easy prey and dying a lot in warzones to get your kills.

 

You have to play at a very high level and think to play a scrapper and do very well. If you are playing this class as dirty fighting, I highly suggest you switch to Commando. You will do significantly more AE damage and it is vastly superior for DPS in warzones compared to Dirty Fighting. And it is a fun class to play as well.

Edited January 20, 2012 by torhent

[Auxili]

I've done 6 months of Beta playing the scoundrel exclusively in all specs. In release I've played all specs as well. I've already had one former guildie try out dirty fighting after I told him how gimp it was, and after a few days he was disgusted with it.

 

Dirty Fighting is a crap spec, there is no way around it. Its for people who can't play as a stealther. If you are playing as a stealther, then you have to attack from stealth and pick your fights. Meanwhile, dirty fighting requires you to hit three people at a time with shrap bomb which prevents you from stealthing AND it requires at least a 3 to 4 second build up where you are exposed to be CC'd before you can actually do damage.

 

So yes, people who are playing that spec do need help. You should be able to figure out the limitations by looking at the abilities and energy cost before even speccing in it. After playing the spec for 20 warzones, it should become apparent of the extreme short comings of the spec.

 

 

 

dude, nobody's denying your points but you're being weirdly passionate and zealous about it. Take it easy

Edited January 20, 2012 by Auxili

[torhent]

dude, nobody's denying your points but you're being weirdly passionate and zealous about it. Take it easy

 

More annoyed that Dirty Fighting is gimped as it is for Scoundrel and that Bioware after knowing this for 6 months, still hasn't done anything for it. When you have people trying to defend a gimped tree, it doesn't help the advanced class.

 

The energy cost for the amount of damage output of the skill tree is significantly out of sorts.

[Auxili]

More annoyed that Dirty Fighting is gimped as it is for Scoundrel and that Bioware after knowing this for 6 months, still hasn't done anything for it. When you have people trying to defend a gimped tree, it doesn't help the advanced class.

 

The energy cost for the amount of damage output of the skill tree is significantly out of sorts.

 

Yeah I totally agree w/ that

[Vicid]

I was never topped by Dirty Fighting in a Warzone nor did I ever see Dirty Fighting top any Warzone Chart. Before I unsubscribed, I was at 62 Valor. Could you reliably break at least 300K damage AND have zero deaths? I was able to with Scrapper.

 

Scrapper wins the DPS race as long as the player whose playing a Scrapper is playing well. A well played Dirty Fighter is going to do 25% less DPS than a well played Scrapper.

 

Meanwhile, a crappy Scrapper is going to do a lot less damage than a crappy Dirty Fighter because both characters are going to die quick, the difference is that the Dirty Fighter can toss Shrap Grenades to get some AE damage.

 

I have no issues staying in stealth. You always pick and choose your fights and attack those opponents that are solo, in the rear or players who at 50% health so you can quickly kill them. Hell at times I was able to lure the 50 Imperials to attack me solo behind walls so I could quickly pop stealth and kill them without allowing someone to dot me. I normally attack those injured, pop Smuggler for an immediate stealth, and then find the next low health or solo player. For most attacks its 4 v 4 and I can take out with help from the group 3 of the opposing teams player in the first 2 minutes no problem. For the next three minutes (waiting for Smuggle to repop in 3 min, and dissapearing act in 2 min), I'm playing my attacks very careful and I can easilly waste the agressors. Again, helping my team take down people who they have down to 50% or less health. When they finally do get a dot or get me in combat, I run away to a number of hiding places that I know and I reheal myself to 100% and in 10 seconds I can restealth.

 

That is what playing a stealth class is about, doing massing damage by attacking those players already injured, taking none yourself and not dying in a warzone. You greatly help your team, you get large warzone numbers, decent medals and you take a large number of MVP votes boosting your valor points.

 

Or you can play as a stealther as a Dirty Fighter where the majority of the time you are exposed in the open, being extremely easy prey and dying a lot in warzones to get your kills.

 

You have to play at a very high level and think to play a scrapper and do very well. If you are playing this class as dirty fighting, I highly suggest you switch to Commando. You will do significantly more AE damage and it is vastly superior for DPS in warzones compared to Dirty Fighting. And it is a fun class to play as well.

 

I'm glad you had such a good time in beta/first month killing people who had no idea what they're doing. You NEVER want to be alone if you're not a stealther and the more experienced a player gets the more they realize this. Yes it is easy to finish off a wounded character but really a dirty fighter can do that too. I'm glad you spend a lot of your time running to hiding spots and healing up and waiting for disappearing act to come back. It really kind of proves my point. You're a one trick pony.

[torhent]

I'm glad you had such a good time in beta/first month killing people who had no idea what they're doing. You NEVER want to be alone if you're not a stealther and the more experienced a player gets the more they realize this. Yes it is easy to finish off a wounded character but really a dirty fighter can do that too. I'm glad you spend a lot of your time running to hiding spots and healing up and waiting for disappearing act to come back. It really kind of proves my point. You're a one trick pony.

 

Not really, there are a number of ways to play scrapper. For instance if you spec up to med pack, you take a 6% crit loss and you lose fletchette round. On the other hand you don't necessarilly have to be stealthed. You basically can kill anyone 1 on 1.

 

And I pulled good numbers when fighting premades when running in my own premade against 50's who do know how to counter stealthers. Again, it comes down to knowing how to play your spec and picking your target. Hell, I had more fun playing counter operative and destroying any operative who popped their heads up and removing healers from the game.

 

Stealthers are made to be squishy on purpose. You can play dirty fighting, but the amount of times your are going to die in PUG's is going to be very large in comparison to a Scrapper or even a Sawbone. You'll need a premade with a healer to keep you up if you are going to play that spec due to exposing yourself to damage.

 

Dirty Fighting is a seriously gimped spec, there is no ifs ands or buts about it. Group up with an equivalently skilled scrapper the same level, note you both should be at level 40+. Go out and do warzones together and then compare your damage. If the scrapper you are with has more than 4 deaths, you picked a poor comparison. Find someone who can play scrapper and then look at the damage.

[nix_crash]

If they would just add a "also gives a chance of 10/20/30% to regain Upper Hand with each Vital Shot tick" to Cold Blooded imho Dirty Fighting would become perfecty on par with Scrapper.

 

imho this should be on the sixth row of the talent tree so you cant get it in an heavily hibridized build, thus Cold Blooded (or making cold blooded a two point 7.5/15% talent and adding a new talent to the same row for a single point)

[Vicid]

Not really, there are a number of ways to play scrapper. For instance if you spec up to med pack, you take a 6% crit loss and you lose fletchette round. On the other hand you don't necessarilly have to be stealthed. You basically can kill anyone 1 on 1.

 

I'm not sure what your point is here. Dirty Fighting meshes better with Sawbones than Scrapper does. Your hots crit more often and you can kite, not to mention that you have a lot more utility on the dirty fighting line.

 

And as to 'get into warzones with a really good scrapper' argument goes... well.. that's a little odd. If they die four times they're doing it wrong? Shall I keep trying to compare myself with scrappers until one of them has more DPS then me and only THEN have I found a good comparison?

 

*Shrug*

Edited January 20, 2012 by Vicid

[boooshy]

The tree is useless.

 

Bottom line. What's the point of making a medium range tree if you're only upper hand generator is a melee ability. Can't kill anything without wounding shots, and its hard as hell to use.