Truga Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) In fairness, this could be pulled to an absurd degree in the opposite direction. Would the game be better and more fair if they banned mouse turning and hotkeys? Would it be better if we had to use /commands? I realize I'm being a little silly, but I think you see what I'm driving at. It's a question of striking a balance along a spectrum. There is no obvious, black-and-white line to be drawn. No, I agree with this. This is the same argument. I'm not saying it's better or worse with or without add-ons. It's a matter of preference. It is, however, easier. Imagine playing hard-mode wow bosses (I think deathwing is the latest one?) with the UI we currently have in SWTOR. I'll bet 10 bux on it being a lot harder game for anyone that doesn't have the raid on farm mode yet. Would the game be harder without a mouse or keyboard? Probably. Better? Not in my opinion, but if Call of Duty sells hundreds of millions dollars worth of copies for that idiotic thing called a gamepad, I don't see how my opinion matters in this case Edited January 10, 2012 by Truga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blogmonster Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I really don't want number crunching mods added to the game, I don't a mathematicians paradise to ensue. Look what that did to WoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 No addons just dumb down the game. That's it. It's easy enough as it is. So you're just going to repeat random insults instead of responding. Okay with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Well, yes, of course it is. You're a functioning human being. *g* And I do think that 'trivialises' is too strong a statement. Try: 'shifts the emphasis from content to DPS'. Put another way: perhaps you play SW:TOR to pit yourself against the game's challenges, alongside likeminded friends. Whereas I play to experience the game's storyline while spending some time with likeminded friends. Something like Recount is important to your experience, and I have nothing against you having it. It's pretty much irrelevant to my experience, and I wouldn't personally want it. There's no conflict there. There's no "My way is better". It's just preferences. If designers were to begin to create content which required me to use something like Recount, if the game became inaccessible to me unless we devoted ourselves to the numbers challenges - then our positions would conflict, and I'd find something else to play. When people speak defensively against Recount in this thread, I suspect it's for that reason - not an innate distaste for the thing itself, and not really for the gamers who find it fun and useful. But because they're concerned that an experience they're enjoying simply won't be there anymore. But here's the thing, since recount does nothing to make the game easier, it's not going to have an affect on content. Recount is not Deadly Boss Mods. Recount is just parsing your combat log and outputting it in a more easily read format. You guys are treating recount like it's something it's not. Me knowing my DPS doesn't make me a better player, it simply allows me to see where I am making mistakes. I still have to be the one that fixes them. Recount will do nothing to assist me to fixing my problems, it just highlights the problems. I am completely against a Deadly Boss Mods type mod. But recount is not that mod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) No, I agree with this. This is the same argument. I'm not saying it's better or worse with or without add-ons. It's a matter of preference. It is, however, easier. Imagine playing hard-mode wow bosses (I think deathwing is the latest one?) with the UI we currently have in SWTOR. I'll bet 10 bux on it being a lot harder game for anyone that doesn't have the raid on farm mode yet. Would the game be harder without a mouse or keyboard? Probably. Better? Not in my opinion, but if Call of Duty sells hundreds of millions dollars worth of copies for that idiotic thing called a gamepad, I don't see how my opinion matters in this case My argument is that higher amounts of objective information and less tolerant design is more entertaining that less objective information with looser tuning. Pretty much all it boils down to for me. Playing an FPS where everyone has to use a mouse versus one where everyone uses an Xbox controller is a good analogy. Both are fair, but one is a lot more intense. Edited January 10, 2012 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimster Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I need it to play optimally. Effectively isn't enough. I don't settle for "enough". No one should. But, ummm its just a game... right? In 20 years there will be a name for the condition of people who become so serius about a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gohlar Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) So you're just going to repeat random insults instead of responding. Okay with me. How is that an insult? You want to download addons so you can clear content faster, I think that is not in the best interest of the game. I feel it is more rewarding to beat something yourself instead of enlisting the aid of a program. My argument is that higher amounts of objective information and less tolerant design is more entertaining that less objective information with looser tuning. Pretty much all it boils down to for me. This is fair. I'm guessing here but I think you are in the minority on this one. Edited January 10, 2012 by Gohlar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 How is that an insult? You want to download addons so you can clear content faster, I think that is not in the best interest of the game. I feel it is more rewarding to beat something yourself instead of enlisting the aid of a program. Keep going man. This response is also nothing but a hollow insult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PjPablo Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 One thing I don't understand is I don't see the anti crowd asking for the removal of the in-game map. One of the arguments seems to be it makes the game too easy if you allow addons, but yet here you have a map that shows you where all your quest objectives are. Do folks realize that this is just Questhelper or Carbonite in game already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EscVelocity Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Not even close. We don't supporting downloading programs to make the game easier. Add-ons are not programs. If anything, the driver/software for your graphics card is a program that makes the game easier (better framerates, etc.). Add-ons are work-arounds to UI and inadequate features provided by the game-developers. Most companies recognize they are not perfect so they allow add-ons by their paying customers to fill the gaps. Also, I take it you do not use any third-party websites what-so-ever to help you play SWTOR? If you're not a hypocrite, then you're only using your in-game experience and the codex entries to accomplish and do everything you do in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimbotcfg Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Unfortunately, I have the same argument for you, if you want to go there. I want you to figure everything out without recount, using recount is just lazy. Do it like real men do! Yeah! See? Please stop with these silly arguments, as they get us nowhere. Again, I personally want add-ons. Most in my guild (if not all) want them. Most of the people I talked to in PUGs (a much, much better population slice) don't want them. I have a feeling BW is going to go with "most" part of population, and if you really want add-ons, I suggest you start with more convincing arguments. Except its not a silly argument, not wanting to carry people. The anti-meter people dont want more of a challenge, they are claiming content will get harder if meters are used, then they suggest personal meters. Its obvious from the arguments that they have in some way been spurned by people for not pulling their weight and want a game where they wont be found out. Which is selfish and lazy, learn to play, or group with others who want to play the same way as you. You wont get anywhere but apparently that doesnt matter, you're here for funzies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 But, ummm its just a game... right? In 20 years there will be a name for the condition of people who become so serius about a game. Anything in life, game or not, is a chance at victory. Fighting tooth and nail over both trivial and important things is what caused us to evolve in the first place. Strife causes improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathsg Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 i think recount is one of the reasons WoW implemented cross realm raiding, they want people to see the content. im sure Bioware wants people to see the content as well, but recount split it up forcing bioware to rethink their options and probably have to force cross realm just like wow. yes recount is and can be a tool, but we all know 99% of people who use it, abuse it. its like for example a new toy for 2 kids to play with, one will control it not letting the other play with it. and yes, people will be jerks with or without it. personally I dont use one(just because i dont want to) but i know like in Rift(the game i came from) my guild there people would want to see dps meters on even trash, its stupid how obsessed people get with that 1 number they like to see. but either way you look at it, it does kind of split up the community forcing bioware to rethink their options and with their data they would obviously develop to watch it, they would probably have to add cross realm forcing the game into the state that WoW is currently in(which is total garbage btw) P.S. BTW why is it that people complain that this game or any new mmo that comes out is just like WoW and they want something new, YET they complain if they dont have everything WoW has? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 But here's the thing, since recount does nothing to make the game easier, it's not going to have an affect on content. Recount is not Deadly Boss Mods. Recount is just parsing your combat log and outputting it in a more easily read format. You guys are treating recount like it's something it's not. Me knowing my DPS doesn't make me a better player, it simply allows me to see where I am making mistakes. I still have to be the one that fixes them. Recount will do nothing to assist me to fixing my problems, it just highlights the problems. I am completely against a Deadly Boss Mods type mod. But recount is not that mod. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gohlar Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Keep going man. This response is also nothing but a hollow insult. Were you under the impression that these addons weren't helping you at all? I have no idea what to say... Well said. Pretending recount doesn't give you an advantage while begging for it to be implemented is pro. Edited January 10, 2012 by Gohlar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Anything in life, game or not, is a chance at victory. Fighting tooth and nail over both trivial and important things is what caused us to evolve in the first place. Strife causes improvement.If gaming were all about the evolution of our species I would agree. But like movies or books, gaming is entertainment. It's a diversion. It's just not that important. Edited January 10, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoxiousAlby Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 More fallacies to try and support your argument. The majority of sub losses DID come from Asia which a simple Google search would show you was shared in the last investor conference. Addons did not KILL WOW. Hell, WOW isn't even killed. And if anything raiding as become more inclusive in WOW with the addition of LFR. You do realize that when we were playing Cata, the Chinese were still playing Wotlk? Glad your confident of your facts, i'm not as the decline started during Cata according to Wow census. Of course LFR stemmed the bleeding of subs, easy mode pug raids for players that sit around in cities all day. Blizz had to do something to keep the remaining members of the casual community. It was a desperate act that paid off. Also reread my post I never said addons killed wow, I did say they contributed to creating a nasty community. Your argueing for the hell of it with anyone who has a differing opinion to you, good luck in life when your older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gohlar Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Also, I take it you do not use any third-party websites what-so-ever to help you play SWTOR? If you're not a hypocrite, then you're only using your in-game experience and the codex entries to accomplish and do everything you do in the game. No, I don't. I realize looking up how to win before you even try is common but I don't do it. Do my friends and I die sometimes? Yep. But when we win we actually won. We didn't need help. Edited January 10, 2012 by Gohlar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Were you under the impression that these addons weren't helping you at all? I have no idea what to say... Pretending recount doesn't give you an advantage while crying for it to be implemented is pro. When a pro-football team analyzes film of themselves playing, is this a crutch? When a race driver puts his car through a performance lab, is this a crutch? When did information become a crutch? Does watching film suddenly make football players superior athletes? No, they still have to be the ones to use that info they gained from the film. Information is never a crutch and is never "playing the game for you." And all recount does is provide info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 If gaming were all about the evolution of our species I would agree. But movies and books, gaming is entertainment. It's a diversion. It's just not that important. Victory makes a fun activity more fun. Crushing victory makes that more fun even more fun. Everything is better when you're winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Were you under the impression that these addons weren't helping you at all? I have no idea what to say... Pretending recount doesn't give you an advantage while begging for it to be implemented is pro. Pretending that recount plays the game for you and then getting owned over and over in the thread is fail... Nobody ever said that recount wouldn't be helpful. You're just trying to backpeddle from your ridiculous claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resallaprov Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I'll save YOU the trouble. Every boss at the current endgame has a minimum dps requirement. Metrics for tanks and healers are fairly simple. If the tank dies, one of them screwed up somewhere. But there is currently no way to measure the performance of our dps, and dps is key in every single boss fight at endgame. It's not about bragging. People that stroke their e-peen with recount are just as bad or worse than people who can't be bothered to improve their performance and show up expecting to muddle through everything. Both of those types of players are not welcome in decent raiding guilds. QFT. I just want recount to let me know where we need to squeeze a few more DPS out before the enrage. I'm a healer, so I wouldn't mind knowing the break out as well. Also, who is using interrupts and who isn't. If you are doing HM False Emperor, I guarantee you'd like to know who didn't interrupt Ultimate Power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicSix Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 But, ummm its just a game... right? In 20 years there will be a name for the condition of people who become so serius about a game. Athletes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 When a pro-football team analyzes film of themselves playing, is this a crutch? When a race driver puts his car through a performance lab, is this a crutch? When did information become a crutch? Does watching film suddenly make football players superior athletes? No, they still have to be the ones to use that info they gained from the film. Information is never a crutch and is never "playing the game for you." And all recount does is provide info.The combat log portion does, which I am in favor of seeing implemented. All other aspects are epeen exercise enablers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gohlar Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Pretending that recount plays the game for you and then getting owned over and over in the thread is fail... Nobody ever said that recount wouldn't be helpful. You're just trying to backpeddle from your ridiculous claims. Ok it doesn't play the game for you. It shows you what buttons to press and when to press them. Your elite skills take it from there captain literal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts