Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Blackardin]

 

Recount is not just a "damage meter"... it is a graphical interface which allows you to view group activity in the combat log i.e. Damage Done over the duration of the fight by each player, Friendly Fire, Damage Taken, Healing Done, Absorbs, Healing Taken, Overhealing Done, Deaths, DOT Uptime, HOT Uptime, Player Combat Activity, Dispels, The Dispelled, Interrupts, Ressers, CC Breakers, Resources Gained, etc.

 

I believe these tools play an important role in identifying whether a player is doing well or under-performing. Nevertheless, these graphs should be the starting point – an indicator that you should be looking more closely at the situation. Used wisely, a tool like this could greatly improve guild performance.

 

Some individuals are fearful of an "elitist" backlash caused by the improper use of such a tool. Nevertheless, people have also argued that this tool would actually curb elitist behavior based on FACTS and DATA rather than Gear, Achievements, Spec, Gut Feeling or Favoritism.

 

The inevitability of undesirable behavior isn't something we can escape in a massive online community, so the real question is...

 

Would you rather be castigated based on factual data or would you rather take your chances with the "hunch" of a self seeking jerk?

 

With Recount

 

Jerk: Dude please leave the group your DPS sucks.

 

 

Without Recount

 

Jerk: Dude please leave the group you are wearing a green helm and your gear isn't good enough for this encounter. (You get kicked, even if you were top DPS)

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EDIT: It would also totally eliminate "recount spam". They could disable all data broadcasts... If everyone has access to the information there would be no need to broadcast the results.

 

EDIT UPDATE:

-

During the speed-fire round starting at 13:00 in the video. Georg confirms an out of game COMBAT LOG!

 

People will have access to combat logs please bring a recount version in the game!

 

I think Georg Zoeller understands our pain for not having a combat log at launch, let's hope they "get it right" and quickly.

 

People who don't like Recount.

 

I don't want this game to become what Wow became. That's why we are here. If you want a game based around the first person shooter mentality, then I suggest you go back to wow.

[ferroz]

yea i love addons, i LOVE playing the UI and not the game. Can't wait to watch all kinds of bars and graphs while i'm raiding.

addons actually allow the opposite: they allow you to play the game instead of having to focus on the UI elements, since you have control over your UI enough to put all of the information where you need it the most.

[Dagoolch]

So, no one seemed to have anything at all to say about my previous post.

 

I'm okay with an integrated recount, but if they aren't going to add one then they need to downgrade the importance of dps a little bit. In exchange, more coordination-based mechanics

 

It will be obvious who is messing up, and if they do it properly it's exactly as difficult as originally intended

[Yfelsung]

If you need this tools you might not be such a good player as you want to belive .

 

I tanked in DAoC without ... and allways did a good job.

I tanked in WoW without ... and allways did my job.

(Until now) I tank in SWTOR ... and allways do my job.

 

If you can't do your job ... you suck equal if there is recount or not.

 

What part of the following sentence don't you understand

 

The best player in the world can play even better with mods and addons.

 

Just let me know which part of that sentence is unclear.

 

You seem to believe we're talking about using addons like a crutch, we're not.

 

We're using them like you use nitrous in a car. A car can only go so fast without nitrous.

 

The UI can only allow me to play so well before it begins limiting me.

 

I'm not content with doing "a good job" or doing "enough".

 

I am to be the best.

 

If we're DPSing side by side, my aim isn't to down the boss, my aim is to out DPS you.

 

The boss is a computer, beating him holds no value.

 

Beating a human is where the magic happens.

 

Can I play the game fine without mods? Of course I can.

 

But I don't want to play "fine", I want to embarrass other people.

 

I want to stand on top of the mountain.

 

And yes, I could probably stand on top of that mountain without mods.

 

But I want to stand on top of a mountain so high it's impossible to climb without mods.

[RayBanJockey]

Information is king; I'd like to see this implemented. However, people assume wrongly about two aspects of recount;

 

It'll help you improve your dps

This is wrong and not really a valid argument for having dps meters. Unless you have dummies or very controlled test environments you can't use the dps meters for anything other than comparing your dps with others' dps. To improve your dps you mainly need to learn your class and rotations.

 

1337 wow kiddies will kick me when they see my dps

This is also wrong and not a valid argument for not having dps meters. Back in wow, I have never had anyone complain about my ****** dps, not even in heroics. And I've had some insanely bad dps, let me tell you - it has stunk big time. You see, someone has to be at the bottom of the list, and there's nothing people LOVE more than leading the DPS list. They love it. They may lol at you but as long as they feel superior they won't try and get rid of you. In fact you have a higher chance of staying in group with low dps than high because otherwise people tend to get jealous and start finding other reasons to hate you, like accusing you of breaking CC or drawing agro from the tank too often etc etc.

 

No but honestly in the end I find some kind of dps meters to be just an interesting addition to game info and nothing sinister at all. Signed.

[Yfelsung]

You're exactly the type of player I hate playing P&P with.

 

I'm always the DM, precisely because I know the rules too well to be a player.

 

You should see what I can do with summoned badgers and a couple feats.

[Taroen]

I have an even simpler solution : Competetive servers where addons are allowed and normal servers where they are not. Problem Solved.

 

How about another solution... A world where nobody ever forced you to go to download or install an addon. Oh wait... That's where we are now.

 

If you're getting kicked from groups because someone doesn't like your performance then stop being a bad player. If you're getting kicked from a group because some idiot doesn't understand that there is more to an encounter than pure dps, then stop playing with bad players.

 

But don't try to stop the rest of us from getting metrics. If our raid tank is failing, it's obvious. If our healers are failing, it's pretty obvious, too. But there is no way to currently tell if someone is failing at dps, and low dps WILL cause raid wipes.

 

Raid wipes aren't fun. Your "fun build" is not going to be fun for the other 15 people. If you can't make the dps requirements for a run, then you shouldn't expect to go. Nobody wants to get high repair bills to satisfy your selfish notion of fun.

 

People who don't want metrics are the people who are scared to see the results.

[dimster]

Yeah, as if BW would actually do that. Get real.

Here's the simplest solution. Join a guild with like-minded people. That's what guilds are for.

 

Think about it. soon we will have multiple ''I quit if we don't (or DO) get addon support threads running. Why don't we all unite our voice in a single and simple demand : ''We want competitive servers (with add on support) and normal servers (without).

 

At the current rate of diss-agreement we will get only 1 of the two while if we agree on our demand we will get both.

[PjPablo]

No, YOU want that, not people.

 

 

....and btw, this is exactly why I don't want damage meters. They are a magnet for this type of vile, childish, ignorant type of person or behavior.

 

I'd like not to see that here.

 

It's already here in game. This is an MMO. There will always be jerks. Not having Addons doesn't change that. There is one way to avoid difficult people though. Never leave your house and never talk to people.

[Jahor]

sure. you did. and I'm sure you were so super-pro that you had 0 room for improvement</sarcasm off>

Did I said this? No!

But I never had a problem to be good enough to do it ... no reason to min/max anything if it allready work,

Not really; if there's recount, you can quickly quantify exactly what is causing you to suck, and therefore, fix the problem.

Can be done by a short talk with your group if someone noticed what went wrong and maybe a talk with someone else who plays this role/clase.

 

But uh now ... I should talk with other and ask for advice? NOOO I'M PRO I DON'T DO THAT!

[ferroz]

never happened ever

one time I saw that start to happen someone in the raid linked recount, showing that he was in the top 3 dps of a 25 man raid. This was in wow, he was a druid still wearing an heirloom chestpiece, but pulling pretty insane dps regardless.

 

So, instead of kicking him for "being bad dps" due to his observable gear, the warlock and warrior who were actually significantly under performing (per the damage meters) got the boot, along with the healer who was overhealing during phase 3, and we downed the encounter on the next try.

 

edit: actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I saw this happen several times in EQ. It was common to kick people based on their gear, since most people didn't have any other metrics.

 

one example: He was a tank, and got kicked from a group for being undergeared. While they were recruiting a replacement tank, we put together a group with him tanking went in and killed the boss that they failed on before they managed to get a replacement.

Edited January 10, 2012 by ferroz

[Blackardin]

What part of the following sentence don't you understand

 

The best player in the world can play even better with mods and addons.

 

This game is not about "being the best player in the world". That is first person shooter mentality where all that matters is "getting to fifty and beating the raid boss". Its an infestation not the basis.

 

What part of that do you not understand?

[Yakito]

Information is king; I'd like to see this implemented. However, people assume wrongly about two aspects of recount;

 

It'll help you improve your dps

This is wrong and not really a valid argument for having dps meters. Unless you have dummies or very controlled test environments you can't use the dps meters for anything other than comparing your dps with others' dps. To improve your dps you mainly need to learn your class and rotations.

 

1337 wow kiddies will kick me when they see my dps

This is also wrong and not a valid argument for not having dps meters. Back in wow, I have never had anyone complain about my ****** dps, not even in heroics. And I've had some insanely bad dps, let me tell you - it has stunk big time. You see, someone has to be at the bottom of the list, and there's nothing people LOVE more than leading the DPS list. They love it. They may lol at you but as long as they feel superior they won't try and get rid of you. In fact you have a higher chance of staying in group with low dps than high because otherwise people tend to get jealous and start finding other reasons to hate you, like accusing you of breaking CC or drawing agro from the tank too often etc etc.

 

No but honestly in the end I find some kind of dps meters to be just an interesting addition to game info and nothing sinister at all. Signed.

 

 

I must kinda agree, I used to feel jealous sometimes. Well, I rarely played as dps, but still.

I'd love to test and see if my rotations are correct, so I can work some things out, you know. That's my main argument, really. I don't know why people oppose this so much, but then again I was the guy saying NO to recount before launch... so yeah.

[Tommyjc]

This thread is simple, people who suck at mmo's want no meters, people who don't suck, want meters.

[Hairless]

Think about it. soon we will have multiple ''I quit if we don't (or DO) get addon support threads running. Why don't we all unite our voice in a single and simple demand : ''We want competitive servers (with add on support) and normal servers (without).

 

At the current rate of diss-agreement we will get only 1 of the two while if we agree on our demand we will get both.

 

No. We are getting combat logs and add ons. BW already confirmed. It's going to happen.

 

Oh btw, you are the only one asking for such an unreasonable solution. I am pretty sure BW is rofling at your idea if they are reading this.

[Blackardin]

It's already here in game. This is an MMO. There will always be jerks. Not having Addons doesn't change that. There is one way to avoid difficult people though. Never leave your house and never talk to people.

 

Again, you base you argument on logical fallacy, hyperbole and conjecture. The argument is beyond sophomoric to, well, silly.

[Yfelsung]

This game is not about "being the best player in the world". That is first person shooter mentality where all that matters is "getting to fifty and beating the raid boss". Its an infestation not the basis.

 

What part of that do you not understand?

 

Any game is what you make of it.

 

I play MMOs with the same mentality I play all genres of game.

 

Utter, complete, total victory.

 

When I PvP, I don't want to just win, I want to demoralize the other team.

 

When I play PvE, I don't just want to tank and hold the boss, I want to tank while outputting enough damage to make a bad DPSer look even worse.

 

My proudest day as a player, but my most shameful day as a guild officer, was the day I pulled 12th on DPS as the main tank in a 40 man raid in WoW.

 

Not only did I main tank, I did more damage than almost half the DPSers in the raid.

 

That's what I play games for and my play style is no more or less viable than yours.

[ferroz]

Did I said this? No!

Funny that you play this card, when you're putting words in his mouth

 

But I never had a problem to be good enough to do it ... no reason to min/max anything if it allready work,

this is called mediocrity. If you enjoy striving for mediocrity, all power to you, but lots of people like to be better than mediocre.

 

Can be done by a short talk with your group if someone noticed what went wrong and maybe a talk with someone else who plays this role/clase.

Nope, it cannot be quantified by a talk with your group. You can get opinion based quality feedback, but that's not the same thing.

[Bludvein]

Personally, if they are that worried about the social impact of a damage meter of some kind, I would settle for just a personal one that only shows my stats. I want to know if I am doing well or if my rotation could be improved. I don't think that is elitism. Also, if someone claims I didn't interrupt, get out of the fire, .etc. I can show proof that I did. Edited January 10, 2012 by Bludvein

[Blackardin]

This thread is simple, people who suck at mmo's want no meters, people who don't suck, want meters.

 

Actually, it is those that believe there is a "suck or not suck" in MMO's that want meters. Again, this is a MMORPG, not a first person shooter. I tend to doubt that their goal will be to end up where Wow is now.

 

If that is what you want, why are you not still in wow, which has all of that?

[Blackardin]

Any game is what you make of it.

 

I play MMOs with the same mentality I play all genres of game.

 

Utter, complete, total victory.

 

When I PvP, I don't want to just win, I want to demoralize the other team.

 

When I play PvE, I don't just want to tank and hold the boss, I want to tank while outputting enough damage to make a bad DPSer look even worse.

 

My proudest day as a player, but my most shameful day as a guild officer, was the day I pulled 12th on DPS as the main tank in a 40 man raid in WoW.

 

Not only did I main tank, I did more damage than almost half the DPSers in the raid.

 

That's what I play games for and my play style is no more or less viable than yours.

 

You're doing it wrong in the wrong game fella. ;p

[Truga]

This game is not about "being the best player in the world". That is first person shooter mentality where all that matters is "getting to fifty and beating the raid boss". Its an infestation not the basis.

 

What part of that do you not understand?

 

Any game is about what the player wants. If I want to go around and smell flowers (I do exactly that on my biochems), I can certainly do that. If I want to be the first in the world to kill you, I can do that (if you're on a PVP server) and if I want to be the first in the world to kill boss x, I can do that too.

 

Again, games are meant to be competitive, otherwise they'd be terribly boring for a lot of people. In your terms, how would you feel if while watching football (or whatever you enjoy watching) both teams would always win?

[Taroen]

Information is king; I'd like to see this implemented. However, people assume wrongly about two aspects of recount;

 

It'll help you improve your dps

This is wrong and not really a valid argument for having dps meters. Unless you have dummies or very controlled test environments you can't use the dps meters for anything other than comparing your dps with others' dps. To improve your dps you mainly need to learn your class and rotations.

 

1337 wow kiddies will kick me when they see my dps

This is also wrong and not a valid argument for not having dps meters. Back in wow, I have never had anyone complain about my ****** dps, not even in heroics. And I've had some insanely bad dps, let me tell you - it has stunk big time. You see, someone has to be at the bottom of the list, and there's nothing people LOVE more than leading the DPS list. They love it. They may lol at you but as long as they feel superior they won't try and get rid of you. In fact you have a higher chance of staying in group with low dps than high because otherwise people tend to get jealous and start finding other reasons to hate you, like accusing you of breaking CC or drawing agro from the tank too often etc etc.

 

No but honestly in the end I find some kind of dps meters to be just an interesting addition to game info and nothing sinister at all. Signed.

 

Actually, I kind of have to disagree with the part that I highlighted. On any given fight, I can modify my rotation and spec and compare the results with my own results from my last time in that encounter. Meters can easily be used to tweak your own spec and rotation. That is HOW you learn your class and rotation. If you're just copying it from what someone else said is the best, then you're just as bad as any other baddy playing the game.

[Tommyjc]

Right no, i'm 24, I work, I go to college, and I can still always get at least top 3 in any run I've done when dps'ing since vanilla WoW. It's called hand eye coordination, it's called research, it's called gearing correctly, it's called using the right roation, it's called having situational awareness, it's called not being bad.

 

Try again..

Edited January 10, 2012 by Parali

[Blackardin]

Any game is about what the player wants. If I want to go around and smell flowers (I do exactly that on my biochems), I can certainly do that. If I want to be the first in the world to kill you, I can do that (if you're on a PVP server) and if I want to be the first in the world to kill boss x, I can do that too.

 

Again, games are meant to be competitive, otherwise they'd be terribly boring for a lot of people. In your terms, how would you feel if while watching football (or whatever you enjoy watching) both teams would always win?

 

So if you want to fly in your car, you should beat your head against the wall until you can?

 

The point is not what YOU want, but the direction of the game, which is not in line with what YOU want. If you want to beat your head against the wall demanding that your car fly, that's up to you.

 

Personally, I would just buy a plane. If I wanted Wow, I'd be back raiding in wow, not trying to make another game be wow.