AlpsStranger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Edit: Snip Edited January 10, 2012 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagoolch Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Integrated recount sure. If raiding was difficult enough to require recount, but none is offered by the game itself, something is just wrong with that. If the game refuses to offer integrated recount, then they should just make raids based on coordination and forget the whole dps thing altogether. Make it so you only need fairly decent dps (aka actually using skills and not just auto-shooting.. and also making sure you aren't just sitting at 0 ammo with a horrible regeneration rate) instead of aiming for a perfectly timed rotation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahor Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 i just love when ppl say: "I dont want damagemeters cauz ppl would see i suck and kick me" Keep going, guys. Bad players will find ways to cheat this graphs. And it's totaly common, that bad players start groups with "LFG XX valued group" while they selve don't even scratch this value to get eazy loot (ak let other do the job for them). In addition any new char will have extremly hard times to gear up as as soon as min/max is established noone invides them anymore. If you want numbers play EvE. TONS of numbers all over with creazy calculations and imens tables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dontdieplez Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 We are going to get a damage meter wether you like it or not so I don't know why you guys are wasting time debating this lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uruare Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 What if, we had like 2 types of servers : Type 1) where add ons and combat log existed (and thus all good thinhs like recount gearscores dps meters etc etc) Type 2) where its exactly like it is now, but only with a few UI customization options like scaling and Bar dragging etc. How would that solution NOT satisfy both worlds? If that is not posible though i would vote that add ons and combat logs are left out of the game since they are cornerstones of the OMG U SUCK LEARN TO PLAY NEWB QQ LOL FTW LEET culture, a culture that i would personaly not welcome in the game if i could help it. Some people play for bragging rights and some people play for fun. Swtor is a game and games by design should be fun. If people want to make the game an E-sport there should be special servers where people compete and Win allong with the normal servers where people just play and have fun. That'd be a grand solution, I think. This really is a cultural variety of issue where two emerging value systems are taking sophisticated, oppositional shape in the MMO market base. Maybe Bioware could pioneer some macrosocial tests and designate certain servers as add-on enabled, and some as add-on disabled. I'd be very interested in seeing the user data after a year on such if such an experiment were performed, really. It could potentially answer, or at least provide basis for more refined hypothesizing, on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 What if, we had like 2 types of servers : Type 1) where add ons and combat log existed (and thus all good thinhs like recount gearscores dps meters etc etc) Type 2) where its exactly like it is now, but only with a few UI customization options like scaling and Bar dragging etc. How would that solution NOT satisfy both worlds? If that is not posible though i would vote that add ons and combat logs are left out of the game since they are cornerstones of the OMG U SUCK LEARN TO PLAY NEWB QQ LOL FTW LEET culture, a culture that i would personaly not welcome in the game if i could help it. Some people play for bragging rights and some people play for fun. Swtor is a game and games by design should be fun. If people want to make the game an E-sport there should be special servers where people compete and Win allong with the normal servers where people just play and have fun. This is more of a general question to understand where you're coming from: If someone does suck at a game, if it can be proven without a shadow of a doubt that a person sucks really bad at something, should he/she not be informed of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) That'd be a grand solution, I think. This really is a cultural variety of issue where two emerging value systems are taking sophisticated, oppositional shape in the MMO market base. Maybe Bioware could pioneer some macrosocial tests and designate certain servers as add-on enabled, and some as add-on disabled. I'd be very interested in seeing the user data after a year on such if such an experiment were performed, really. It could potentially answer, or at least provide basis for more refined hypothesizing, on the matter. I know you probably think the addon servers would be unlivable or some other outcome that gratifies your position, but I don't think so. You'd just have laid back servers where people went to roll a lot of alts and then servers that were more "gamey." Not saying this outcome would be bad, I just don't think you'd get your "Aha! Addons ruined the game!" result. EDIT: In all seriousness, what would they do about raid balance? I suppose they could tune the enrage timers tighter and such on the addon servers. Edited January 10, 2012 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaVolpex Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 NOOOOOO sorry but all that does is breed elitism and kill the fun, when it all becomes about numbers i might as well go read a mathbook and macro the same rotation onto a programable keyboard and spam 1-2 while i watch tv...u rly want me to just focus on stupid dps meters instead of actually enjoying what im doing and paying attention? cuz that is EXACTLY what 90% of people that use, and ask for , a dps meter would do.. so in short, no thank you, go back to wow and measure your epeen with the new generation of pokemon players and tricolored pandas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Because happy-funtime MMORPG's that are primarily story-driven and immersively story-heavy aren't for people primarily interested in happily poking around and enjoying the story without any obsessive care in the world for micromanagement tools for raid performance. Some of us play a happy-funtime game to be happy and have fun. Some of us find more than enough competition, work, struggle and relative achievmeent in our RL doings and do not seek those in our happy-funtime games. You know, the ones that are full of story immersion and rich lore and...odd...it almost sounds like I'm describing a game like TOR. Bizarre, innit? And too bad TOR also has raiding and pvp for end game. Ever occur to you that some people want to enjoy that? You can go have happy fun time making alts and immersing yourself in the rich story. I fail to see how having damage meter will affect you in anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talligan Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 No, I've spent enough time looking at DPS/HPS results in the past and stressing about the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruthlessboy Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Not going to go for this debating, but i for one reason support some form of recount just to make ME a better player. I like to be able to check my own damage in MMO's and be able to cheer myself once i top my earlier records Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cylide Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 People who don't like Recount. Way to diqualify yourself from your own discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimster Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This is more of a general question to understand where you're coming from: If someone does suck at a game, if it can be proven without a shadow of a doubt that a person sucks really bad at something, should he/she not be informed of this? By who's authirity should people who ''suck at the game'' be labeled and segregated and why should bioware provide tools to fascilitate and allow such a segregation? I advocate for the creation of ''Competitive'' Servers where people can play and compete with full add on support, while the rest of the people play for fun at the normal servers without anyone caring if they suck or not. One culture should not be allowed to impose its view of what is right on the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 By who's authirity should people who ''suck at the game'' be labeled and segregated and why should bioware provide tools to fascilitate and allow such a segregation? I advocate for the creation of ''Competitive'' Servers where people can play and compete with full add on support, while the rest of the people play for fun at the normal servers without anyone caring if they suck or not. One culture should not be allowed to impose its view of what is right on the other. That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking this: If it can be conclusively proven that someone sucks at an activity, ANY ACTIVITY, should they not be informed they suck? Be it a game, work, school etc. If someone is bad at something, should they be allowed to remain ignorant to their failure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truga Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I want to complement your signature btw. I groaned a little once I noticed it, but I also laughed Jawas, the scourge of EVE Online. I used to love chess, by the way. Then I found Go and now that's all I ever play. Well and MTG, but I only play that with my geek friends. Funny thing, how you can get anyone to play Go, but to play MTG, you pretty much need geeks or they just start rolling their eyes. As for competitive gaming, I'm a sysadmin and thus I have a day or two where I really don't have anything to do every month. Leaves me a lot of time to theorycraft while sitting at work. Helps with boredom and gives me an edge against people with *******r jobs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 By who's authirity should people who ''suck at the game'' be labeled and segregated and why should bioware provide tools to fascilitate and allow such a segregation? It's implicit in the nature of the game. Second Life is that way ------> One culture should not be allowed to impose its view of what is right on the other. That's a very good question to ask the "NOOOOO! ABSOLUTELY NO ADDONS EVVVVVVAAAAR!" people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellspawnxxx Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Not having Recount is hurting this game. I will not at anytime run a dungeon with Pubs anymore. On too many occasions we could not meet the enrage timers of the Bosses and without recount I cannot see which Pub is not pulling thier wieght by eather slacking and or not playing thier class correctly. I see alot of forums saying there is a lack of Healers which isnt true there are plenty of healers such as myself, but like most healers and tanks we are tired of paying 30-40k repair bills because we cannot determine who is causing the group to wipe. Until recount is introduced myself and my guildies only do dungeons together and will never attempt a Pub group ever again. Not having recount has caused an issolationist type of game. Nobody wants to risk repair bills on Pubs. Recount would make people more confident with forming Pub groups. BTW if your about to repond by saying youve had no problem with Pubs well thats your good fortune and doesnt hold much validation with me. Because ive easly out of atleast 30 Pub Dungoens ive ran ive only had 3-4 successful groups and more then over 500,000 credits in repair bills because of baddies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimbotcfg Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 By who's authirity should people who ''suck at the game'' be labeled and segregated and why should bioware provide tools to fascilitate and allow such a segregation? I advocate for the creation of ''Competitive'' Servers where people can play and compete with full add on support, while the rest of the people play for fun at the normal servers without anyone caring if they suck or not. One culture should not be allowed to impose its view of what is right on the other. But you declaring that you should be allowed to impose your view and segregate people who want to compete is in no was a double standard and hypocritical. Seriously, how can some of you people not see what you are typing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zumbledum Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I don't want recount. I have been raiding in MMO's for around 15 years now, the reasons well there's a lot but basically it causes more problems than it fixes. when you add a dps meter a lot of changes happen, dps will stop moving out of the fire to get more hits in, dps will stop using interrupts and cc they don't benefit the chart, de buffs stop getting applied. if there was ever a balanced and accurate way for a metric to measure raid input and detriment cool , but recount is/was about as far from that as possible, its actually worse than having nothing because it gives false impressions of quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahor Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) This is more of a general question to understand where you're coming from: If someone does suck at a game, if it can be proven without a shadow of a doubt that a person sucks really bad at something, should he/she not be informed of this? Why should he? He has fun playing or he has no fun playing. That's the information he need. But show me one excample, where all this theory craft and "competetive gameplay" has not leaded to cheating, hacking, bug using, scaming. Just ONE. Hell, check out the last speed-hack video where someone catched a PvP wannabe roxor while he cheated. And he did it "to be the top competetive player". In real he suck hardcore, much more then any wife who playes to spend time with her husbend. The wife might have slow reactions as she can't type 320 letters/min. She might don't know the absolut best posible min/max heal rotation. But she plays FAIR and she manages to keep the tank of her husband alife even with her under geard chars as she prefares to keep this cut white dess rather then the ugly brown one with better stats. ^ THIS is real skill ... not min/max! And THIS you will never catch with any recount or graph! Edited January 10, 2012 by Jahor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThanosTitan Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Actually, if you want to be accurate, Its nothing like car phones. Because meters cause harm to noone. Its like saying they shouldn't have indicators, cause why should anyone else know what you're doing. Lol, wrong meter chasers causes tunnel vision, then dps stand in fire and dont interrupt innocent people die. Seriously, though 2012 and not even a combat log? When your super community of random chat friends starts failsaucing all over Hard FP's. People are going to start pointing fingers at guesses. So you can either man up and learn how your under performing and where you need to adjust.......or you can get booted from a group cause CptForseKttez (of guild Tuna Butter Tacos) says hes pretty sure he never saw your kick animation and you have a green implant (even though you kicked every cd you could). I got space ships,stealth suits, shields, sentient robots, and freakin super powers but I cant get a pda that displays the info coming off or into any of my gear? Is it just me, or does playing SWTOR make you want to watch SpaceBalls all the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimbotcfg Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking this: If it can be conclusively proven that someone sucks at an activity, ANY ACTIVITY, should they not be informed they suck? Be it a game, work, school etc. If someone is bad at something, should they be allowed to remain ignorant to their failure? Its a bi-product of our "everyones a special little snowflake, there are no winners or losers" education systems. People get a shock when they hit the real world and find out that this isn't in fact the case and performance is important when your lack thereof can hinder other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This. Meters make PUGS unbearable. It's not about epeen or attitudes it's about changing the focus of combat to the wrong thing. The coming combat log is enough for those who actually need the data, and there are precious few of those. Players that are bad are going to stay that way. Recount doesn't change that, it just exposes them. If you're playing with people who care more about their own e-peen than they care about winning the fight, then that's your troubles. Those people quickly make my ignore list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimbotcfg Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Lol, wrong meter chasers causes tunnel vision, then dps stand in fire and dont interrupt innocent people die. Seriously, though 2012 and not even a combat log? Wrong, because recount points out who stood in the fire, who didnt dps adds, who didnt interupt. This is one of the biggest 'anti-meter' arguments yet it has no weight in the real world, since its actually a point for meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soazak Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 That is a load of crap and you know it. I tried this in wow, and guess what happened. They ended up developing the game around these addons, so in the end I had no choice but to use them or not be able to do the content. The "OPTION" as you call it was no longer there, the addons were forced upon me. Why dont you just admit it, you want this game to be wow in space, and nothing else. How did they develop the game around addson? The game was perfectly feasable with the standard UI, lots of people used it. Just because it's not for you, doesn't mean it's not for everyone.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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