Truga Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Because I hate not having easily accessible objective information. Why guess on scratch paper? I'm already at a computer, so why arbitrarily require a stopwatch-and-#2-pencil solution? Because the game was designed this way? Because that's how the game works? Because this is, in the end, a game, and while we might not agree with it's current design, the choice is in the end up to BW, and they decided to cater to the larger playerbase? I don't mind not having add-ons if it means I get to have more content in the end. And I ask every single PUG I ever group with on my server if they want add-ons and damage meters and so on. 90% of the time the answer is no. Sure, in my guild we all want it, but if getting them means we lose a good portion of the other players, and thus losing subs, I'd rather not have them. I like content more than I like something that just makes my numbers game a bit easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iskevosi Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 yes ofc we need recount, to know whos bad and kick him out It's people like you that are going to kill this game and community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahor Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Yes. Although with a combat log being released I believe this will be available as well wether Bioware wants it or not. These tools are pretty much essential though No they are not. It is no problem at all to fnish every ecnounter without this tools. If you can finisht them without ... they aren't "essential"! Some bad/lazy players just want them to be even more lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truga Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Right, so busywork is rewarded over actual reflexes and skill. You're missing just one thing here. You'll need BOTH work and actual skill to be the top. Which is how it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Because the game was designed this way? Because that's how the game works? Because this is, in the end, a game, and while we might not agree with it's current design, the choice is in the end up to BW, and they decided to cater to the larger playerbase? I don't mind not having add-ons if it means I get to have more content in the end. And I ask every single PUG I ever group with on my server if they want add-ons and damage meters and so on. 90% of the time the answer is no. Sure, in my guild we all want it, but if getting them means we lose a good portion of the other players, and thus losing subs, I'd rather not have them. I like content more than I like something that just makes my numbers game a bit easier. The casuals that are here purely for wookiees and lightsabers won't quit over this. We can have our cake and eat it too. I think you worry entirely too much. My honest opinion is that we'll have both addons, metering, and logging. I also feel that it won't bother 98% of the players once it actually happens and becomes old news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercia Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 No they are not. It is no problem at all to fnish every ecnounter without this tools. If you can finisht them without ... they aren't "essential"! Some bad/lazy players just want them to be even more lazy. Quite the opposite I want to clear the best content not just normal thus i need to ensure my dps/healing is upto that level and having a tool to help me is very welcome and not lazy at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) You're missing just one thing here. You'll need BOTH work and actual skill to be the top. Which is how it should be. But why? Why should I have to do something longhand *on a computer*? Your use of "should" has an almost moralizing tone. I find it extremely unappealing and slimy. Edited January 10, 2012 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimbotcfg Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 We had some guys like you in our raids too. First they cryed loudest when it their class gear drobbed. So they where the first with full sets while other had maybe just 1 item of the set. If they had been a little bit kind they appeared the next to raids but some instandly logged out when they go the last item and never joined again. Some other guys got their set and sarted with "go go next dungeon for next set" EQUAL if other had their sets too or not. They just gave a sh.. if other people wanted to get the full set too or not. They whined, flamed, rages as long as we either kicked them or moved to the next dungeon ... where they tryed to start the same game again. Over all it just matter IF you manage to finish an encounter but it doesn't matter if you finish him in 3 or 5 minutes! You are wrong. I am perpetually undergeared in WoW, I happily pass updrops, because as far as I'm concerned Gear =/= Skill and I can perform without it. I absolutely hate Gearscore and crap like that. So instead of trying to villainise me, how about you address my exam point and see if you can form a logical answer to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truga Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The casuals that are here purely for wookiees and lightsabers won't quit over this. We can have our cake and eat it too. I think you worry entirely too much. My honest opinion is that we'll have both addons, metering, and logging. I also feel that it won't bother 98% of the players once it actually happens and becomes old news. Well, I certainly hope you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalusW Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 3. DPS meters encourage DPS to focus on dpsing as fast as possible, and do the most damage without considering other alternatives such as CC, stun etc. Not always the best DPS is the best player. This. Meters make PUGS unbearable. It's not about epeen or attitudes it's about changing the focus of combat to the wrong thing. The coming combat log is enough for those who actually need the data, and there are precious few of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dargor- Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Indeed, the fools wetting their panties all scared over addons & macros on the forums are but 5% of the total playerbase. And even those aren't gonna leave when it happens, they'll just keep b**ching in-game because they'll have to step up their game and actually perform at their roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Because the game was designed this way? Because that's how the game works? Because this is, in the end, a game, and while we might not agree with it's current design, the choice is in the end up to BW, and they decided to cater to the larger playerbase? I don't mind not having add-ons if it means I get to have more content in the end. And I ask every single PUG I ever group with on my server if they want add-ons and damage meters and so on. 90% of the time the answer is no. Sure, in my guild we all want it, but if getting them means we lose a good portion of the other players, and thus losing subs, I'd rather not have them. I like content more than I like something that just makes my numbers game a bit easier. Wait wait wait, BW catered to the larger playerbase? You do realize these discussions don't serve any purpose because it's been confirmed we will be getting some form of addons by Stephen Reid. He said, and I'm paraphrasing, "We're not keeping stuff like the combat log out to prevent things like recount, we're just not done yet." Also, in his reddit AMA he said "The UI team is going to work on improving the existing UI first before we look at modding it. Modding may happen, but we have no ETA on 'when' that we can share right now." They didn't make some magical decision not to have mods, they just have other priorities to fix before they look at giving us a modding API. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battousaien Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 We had some guys like you in our raids too. First they cryed loudest when it their class gear drobbed. So they where the first with full sets while other had maybe just 1 item of the set. If they had been a little bit kind they appeared the next to raids but some instandly logged out when they go the last item and never joined again. Some other guys got their set and sarted with "go go next dungeon for next set" EQUAL if other had their sets too or not. They just gave a sh.. if other people wanted to get the full set too or not. They whined, flamed, rages as long as we either kicked them or moved to the next dungeon ... where they tryed to start the same game again. Over all it just matter IF you manage to finish an encounter but it doesn't matter if you finish him in 3 or 5 minutes! This is just a load of BS. You can't be so prejudiced and blame everyone just because you met one of those. I'm one of those that really enjoy theorycrafting and numbercrunching. I think it adds depth and another dimension to the game. I'm one of those people that want to optimise my performance and can spend much time after raids to evaluate Recount and logs to find spots where I can improve. But from your post I get it that you think all of us (min/maxers) are the same. I'm far from the loot-wh0re you discribe. I never rage, flame, cry or nag in a raid setting because of poor performance or if I lost a roll for my gear. In fact, I'm probably the first guy in the raid that pass on an item so another member can get a bigger upgrade. So don't draw us all over the same line... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHauntingBard Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) All I see is DPS complaining about the fact recount means they have to be a bit more responsible.Any well formulated posts gets skipped and all I see is ' I DON"T WANT". First of all recount problem is only about pugs, you know the same pugs people say about that it's 'normal' that most of them behave poor. So you don't like me seeing that you're playing bad. But you know what. I don't want bad DPS to stand in fire and blame me as a healer because yeah they didn't do it. I don't want bad DPS to whine about me losing aggro while they fail to interrupt a cast that stuns me I don't want you to have a fun rotation that causes me to chain pot to keep the group running. I don't want to spend 2 hours on a boss until your ' RL" kicks in because you cba to learn your class. See that's the other side of the story, no recount means a free ticket for some players to slack/pester and abuse tanks and healers. But you know what's the best, I can avoid this all by not pugging! There is your answer for recount, make friends with this LFG tool find a nice social guild and have fun.But don't moan about recount because it ruins your pug experience. Edited January 10, 2012 by TheHauntingBard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimbotcfg Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It's people like you that are going to kill this game and community. Actually, its people like you, who insist that cars dont come with wheels because that other popular car company makes them like that, that are going to kill the game. I can also honestly say regarding this 'comunity' that the vocal people of this forum are some of the most closed minded, prejudist and vile beings I have ever encountered, in real life, or in gaming circles, and I used to play CS competatively, so thats saying something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecunami Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 No they are not. It is no problem at all to fnish every ecnounter without this tools. If you can finisht them without ... they aren't "essential"! Some bad/lazy players just want them to be even more lazy. I think you are mistaking recount for something else. This will tell us who is doing their job or not, which is difficult in large raids. This will not make it easier for players, but harder as they must account for their actions and not rely on others to pull the weight. This is not a tool that will play the game for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahor Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 You're missing just one thing here. You'll need BOTH work and actual skill to be the top. Which is how it should be. We all know that most "top raids" and "first kill raids" in WoW used either HUGH amount of time+potions (12 hours/day 7days/week allways max buffed (which means another 3+ hours mats farming)) or cheated to archive this "top" status. Who cares about first kills and fastest times at all? This is a damn GAME which people should play to relax! Most of us have jobs, familys, real life where we have far more stress then we want to. There is NO NEED for even more stress in a stupid (sorry) game which we want to play to get out of the all-day-stress! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Propanelgen Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 really recount makes the game easier? more like exposes the bad players who are not pulling there weight in a grp, or suck at there class, only bad players support not have a damage meter and any way to record performance Only elitists will support recount or other addons to record performance. I would prefer if the elitists stayed in Azeroth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truga Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Actually, its people like you, who insist that cars dont come with wheels because that other popular car company makes them like that, that are going to kill the game. Actually, this is more like "Cars with phones in them kill people because people aren't paying attention as well while talking on the phone." If he was trying to remove the wheels he'd be saying he wants to have no UI but play MUDs instead (which is fine, but honestly, a lot of muds do SW better than this game does). Also, in his reddit AMA he said "The UI team is going to work on improving the existing UI first before we look at modding it. Modding may happen, but we have no ETA on 'when' that we can share right now." They didn't make some magical decision not to have mods, they just have other priorities to fix before they look at giving us a modding API. The word "may" pretty much gives it away that they aren't even decided yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
origional Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 No. absoloutely not.Recount will lead to gear score scum telling peole they cant group with them, or kicking them from groups, because they dont like the numbers they are seeing. It makes tossers in to bigger tossers and should be banned from all MMO's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Only elitists will support recount or other addons to record performance. I would prefer if the elitists stayed in Azeroth. Because ensuring you pull your weight in a raid makes someone an elitist. "Hey dude, you were supposed to do 20% of the DPS, you did 7%" "ELITIST!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominemesis Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I hated all the add ons and number crunching in WoW, it promoted what amounted to basically playing the game only by the numbers. It turned it into a damn spreadsheet. When I was a healer, all I did was look at green bars, when dps, a damage meter, when tanking, a threat meter....YAWN! Seriously, it completely shatters any bit of the 4th wall you might care to remain and kills any effort Blizzard, Bioware, or any other developer puts into giving the encounter any mood, immersion, or emotional weight because it boils everything down to the numbers that should be running in the background. I am not interested in such add ons, and enthusiastically lend my voice against another MMO copying mistakes made by WoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jahor Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I think you are mistaking recount for something else. This will tell us who is doing their job or not, which is difficult in large raids. This will not make it easier for players, but harder as they must account for their actions and not rely on others to pull the weight. This is not a tool that will play the game for you. And I allready told you how to "cheat" or "fake" this stats. -> useless crap WoW Prists did it with spamming group heal or flash heal ... MEGA active ... MEGA useless! But hey, they had been "active" (target tank, stick range DD, use keyboard tool to /macro spam flash heal, watch TV). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) The word "may" pretty much gives it away that they aren't even decided yet. Sure, they aren't totally decided yet. But I think a lot of people assume that Bioware backs their philosophical objections to addons. Bioware has specifically disavowed the idea that they are trying to improve the community or protect people by not having damage meters. Whatever factors Bioware has in the 'con' column for addons, I guarantee you they look nothing like what the anti-addon people say. I just can't see a game developer buying in to some of this reasoning. Enrage timers are another important thing to consider. The holy trinity represents three sides to playing, but it also represents three ways to fail. Without "enrage" style bosses a game doesn't necessarily need a lot of DPS data because DPS essentially becomes a superfluous convenience in practice. Once you throw in "DPS check" style bosses, though, you need a more concrete way of metering DPS. It's trivial to tell when a tank or healer fails, but DPS failure can be sort of a mystery without the proper tools. Edited January 10, 2012 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullwrath Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Yes, I support having an in-game version of recount. Hell, yes. Being able to see which of your abilities/rotations/specs is working the best is invaluable to personal improvement. Being able to see how you stack up to others who play you class/role is also invaluable. Do it, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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