The Focus Tree - How Misguided Public Opinion Has Misrepresented A Devastating Tree

[EasymodeX]

Wow, half a second. I am usually using my abilities leaving me with a GCD of 1.5s ticking non stop, which means i on average have to wait 0.75s just to be able to use an ability.

 

The alternative would be to not use abilities and die anyways due to not doing any damage.

 

You're arguing fromn ignorance,which makes me wonder if you play a sentinel/marauder at all.

 

You seem to be a very reactionary player. Thinking ahead will help you use unexpected counters like this.

 

 

I will, on ****** players. I am not talking about ****** players, you are.

 

Sorry, no player in an 8v8 has permanently perfect defense and attention.

 

 

Look up ALL the abilities sorceresses have at their arsenal. Not just the ones bad ones are using. Why would the sorc just randomly stun you when you're running around casually and not in range? And do you always run around with 30 centering for a transendence at will?

 

1. Because you're running at them and will be in contact in 3 seconds. They can either try to escape or try to do something dumb like attack you so you gain more distance, more quickly.

 

2. I am Rage/Focus spec atm, so yes I tend to have Predation/Trans up a hell of a lot. Considering a Watchman spec has +2 Centering per spender, you should have a pretty high uptime. Are you wasting your Transcendence on every random event, or using it when you need to catch up to someone you know will kite you extensively?

 

3. Before trying to leg hump a player who has extensive kiting capability, use some LOS'd or other time to build up 30 stacks on the other 7 enemies in the playing field. Or, you know, pop your equivalent of Frenzy, because you randomly have an ability that lets you randomly use Transcendence whenever the hell you want to once every 90 seconds.

 

 

You're counting on a second leap but somehow adds it all up to "8 seconds of guaranteed contact time after about 4 seconds of touch-and-go time". This is 12 seconds of full DOTs from the sorceress, one of which also applies a 2 second root.

 

Oh no, DOTs that do as much damage as the Rebuke you loaded, except the Sorc spent half their GCDs CCing you instead of loading the DOTs that they didn't quite get enough time to load up. If you managed to let them get a significant DOT stack, you should hit a Saber Ward, too.

 

And if they tried to cast a manual crushing (which they shouldn't have, naturally), or use more than a single tick of FL, you should Camo it, replacing a different gap closer. However, this is difficult to articulate in this "shadow boxing" format since they have variable options.

 

 

Your entire argument is grounded on your ignorance. Please stop.

 

Your argument is centered on a bad Marauder who starts a fight cold, tunnels on a single target, reacts slowly to enemy actions, does not use terrain ... please stop?

[Rankith]

I will, on ****** players. I am not talking about ****** players, you are.

 

No, in group PvP you will be able to run up to even good players. Or do you think every healer and ranged dps you are running in the direction of is gong to instantly start kiting you and drop whatever they were doing?

Edited January 10, 2012 by Rankith

[EasymodeX]

That sounds like excellent CC: I look in their general direction and they run away.

 

Nerf.

[Zandermill]

As the Author of DPS and you a Marauders Guide, I can atest to Focus, as my counter point is the Rage Tree.

If you want to take a look, here is the link.

Focus / Rage I believe is the premiere dps tree in both PVE as well as PVP.

I'll be following your thread for a while to see if any glaring holes, but good job.

[Zennade]

i just have the feeling that if you wanna play sentinel decently you can start that about lv 45 :/

 

i was/am giving focus a shot since i just can not stand the dot style of watchman anymore. (lv 35)

 

i would have tried combat... i just do not see how that works whit out the top tier talent...so focus it is.

how do you people manage the fight? i am always out of focus for about everything. i see a little light whit focused slash to come... but for now any advice? i felt very sad when i wanted to engage the enemy healer forcing him to stop healing his buddies just to get ignored because i dealt nonsignificant damage and one interrupt and stasis only gets you so far...

yes i am 35 in some crap lv gear and he was 50 and probably geared. i would like to at least be able to put out some pressure when i am not in the middle of force sweep. outside of this move it just seems like i am building up focus for some moves nobody cares anyway.

 

well maybe its just me but first thing i slow them down whit legslash which is followed by merciless strike for focus. then its pretty much just slash when focus is available or strike when not. do i use zealous leap for damage? should i even use blade storm? should i apply the cauterize dot?

i also dislike to use stasis for the damage buff but i see that change whit exhaustion... i also skilled master strike... well nobody is kind enough to stand still so i guess i can trow that out of the window?

 

thanks in advance

[Zhorx]

You seem to be a very reactionary player. Thinking ahead will help you use unexpected counters like this.

 

**and a lot of bollocks including how awesome the bugged tranendence talent is**

Your entire argument is based on a scenario in which the sentinel player uses a higher level of situational awareness and timing of abilities than the opponent. I am talking of situations where both players show the same high level of situational awareness and timing of abilities.

 

It's really that simple, stomping players that's way worse then me isn't any problem at all, and that's what you're trying to explain how to do.

 

Edit: To clarify, you asume the sentinel/marauder has a perfect setup of 30 centering, that you manage to predict a force speed while the opponent doesn't predict the stasis, that you can get a drop on a player, etc.

You're describing a Sentinel/Marauder outplaying the opponent, while I'm talking about a situation in which both play equally well.

 

How is this distinction hard for you to grasp?

 

Also as to your point 3, it has a 180 second cooldown baseline. How do you get 90 seconds? Yet another slip just like the 4 seconds earlier? Or simply bad at maths?

Edited January 11, 2012 by Zhorx

[neocoma]

And I still dont like focus. I dont know what gear one needs to force slask to actually hit someone for more than 1300 crit. I also dont know what gear you need to deal those 5-6k crits with sweep. I can get up to 3500, depends on my target. Mostly I get 3k crits which somehow doesnt feel enough compared to the efford I have to take to make the sweep crit happen i.e. watch stack build up, manage auto crit, let loose, while other classes pop an ability and voilá.

 

On top of that it doesnt feel fluid. Might be due to the fact that I dont like slash at all and barely use it because I dont feel it is worth the 3 focus costs. However, as a Shi cho Sentinel you actually can get something useful from Slash as it doesnt cost anything for 6 times in a row.

 

maybe the problem is just the fact that I dont play Sent but guard. Might be a bad decision, I dont know. What I know or better, I believe to know is that focus has talents that are nice and others that are so incredibly wrong. Oh and I dont like specs that are based on ONE single ability. That is just dumb.

[Mikecg]

Force Crush??? What lvl do u get that? I am lvl 44 and have been looking for it.

[MBirkhofer]

exhaustion, is named way way better as force crush for sith.

[Mahdii]

I chose focus after hating Combat while leveling in PvP.

 

While i dont know about the other specs. Focus really only became good once you get Force Stasis at level 24(?). My damage output in Warzones doubled simply from that one ability.

 

Once you hit the last talent it becomes even more viable. That slow basically assures that your next sweep crits when stasis is on CD.

 

Both Leaps need some fixing by the developers. It either put you behind them facing the wrong way. Or to far from them out of melee range.

[Rankith]

Your entire argument is based on a scenario in which the sentinel player uses a higher level of situational awareness and timing of abilities than the opponent. I am talking of situations where both players show the same high level of situational awareness and timing of abilities.

 

It's really that simple, stomping players that's way worse then me isn't any problem at all, and that's what you're trying to explain how to do.

 

Edit: To clarify, you asume the sentinel/marauder has a perfect setup of 30 centering, that you manage to predict a force speed while the opponent doesn't predict the stasis, that you can get a drop on a player, etc.

You're describing a Sentinel/Marauder outplaying the opponent, while I'm talking about a situation in which both play equally well.

 

How is this distinction hard for you to grasp?

 

Also as to your point 3, it has a 180 second cooldown baseline. How do you get 90 seconds? Yet another slip just like the 4 seconds earlier? Or simply bad at maths?

 

If both players are in perfectly equal gear and both play perfectly someone has to win. Obviously classes can't be balanced around this perfect play idea, and no one plays perfectly anyways. Also, if there awareness really is 100% perfect, congratulations on winning the game for your team by running in the direction of the other teams casters. Sometimes they HAVE TO STAND STILL TO DO WHAT THEY ARE DOING. If a healer bailed on his healing and started booking it every time a sent/marauder started running towards him, well, he wouldnt heal very much.

 

That said, it is pretty brutal as melee. This is the EXACT SAME IN EVERY GAME EVER. So I don't see why you expect different.

[MBirkhofer]

Did some ops group running on my sent yesterday.

 

Thought I would share my thoughts.

 

First, mixed bag. 100% uptime on trans is still nice. Speeds runs up a good bit. Lets people move from platform to platforms, and dodge aoe, melee cleaves etc well.

 

Dps felt solid. Times were I clearly out dps'ed others, including those that outgeared.

Other times not.

 

Bonethrasher, giant pita for focus. while the trans is huge for allowing people to kite him. Focus dps on him is god awful. Missing alot of sweeps.

 

Zleap really really needs to be fixed for raiding. It has a really bad habit of making you jump and land in a random location. A random location that might be directly infront of the raid boss, putting you directly into a frontal cleave.

 

Gnarl had similar issues, but not as bad.

 

All around, melee unfriendly fights, are especially deadly to focus spec.

Dropping sweep and stasis out of rotation for those fights, and relying on slash more is needed. Which is a dps loss. also then means using zen more. which buffs damage back up, but at the cost of trans.

[Zhorx]

If both players are in perfectly equal gear and both play perfectly someone has to win. Obviously classes can't be balanced around this perfect play idea, and no one plays perfectly anyways. Also, if there awareness really is 100% perfect, congratulations on winning the game for your team by running in the direction of the other teams casters. Sometimes they HAVE TO STAND STILL TO DO WHAT THEY ARE DOING. If a healer bailed on his healing and started booking it every time a sent/marauder started running towards him, well, he wouldnt heal very much.

 

That said, it is pretty brutal as melee. This is the EXACT SAME IN EVERY GAME EVER. So I don't see why you expect different.

If a caster kites a sentinel his DPS drops by about 60-70%, and much less if it's a DOT spec. A sentinel being kited loses 100% of his DPS.

 

I read your PVP guide, it suggested that you learn how other classes function. Which is why i would like to ask you how much healing for example a scoundrel loses by constantly moving?

 

These arguments have the same feeling as the old days of being a Ret paladin in season 2 during tBC in "that other game". People think the class is perfectly fine because they kill bad people in warzones. Sure sentinels can do that just fine, we are still 1 catch-up cooldown short of fine when facing any sufficiently competent opposition. The arguments against this so far seems to consist of:

 

#1 But we have a bugged talent in the focus tree giving us near permanent transendence, so that's fine.

A: Classes shouldn't be balanced around bugs. And this only "benefits" one out of three specs.

 

#2 But casters tunnelvision and would lose damage by kiting you.

A: That's how bad players think. Good players know that a kited melee does zero DPS, so if you can still do any sort of damage kiting is still the better option.

 

#3 People don't play perfectly.

A: Sufficiently good players can play sufficiently close to perfect as to make no difference.

 

 

As for #3 above. During season 2 in tBC, in "that other game", i played a ret paladin, undoubtedly the single worst spec that game has ever seen in any season. Due to learning that class to as near perfection as i believe possible, supported by the fact that i was ~250 rating higher than any other player of the spec in the world. I managed to reach top 5 in both 2v2 and 3v3, and managed to get a 2-0 record in 2v2 against the winners of the first blizzcon (Zalmah+Lykke), and also managed to beat Hydras 3v3 before he transferred to another battlegroup. People posted my damned armory profile as proof the spec was fine on both the EU and US forums whenever someone complained about the spec (note that if the same would have been done today people would just have said: "carried by Dakkroth", who was my 2v2 and 3v3 teammate back then). This only worked because at those high ratings noone had ever faced a ret paladin, and the simple execution of 3 mana burns (5 seconds worth of casting) would have won the fight for them every single time, which was what eventually happened after facing the same team more than 2 or 3 times.

 

A class that is lacking can be made to look good by opponents either making mistakes, or by opponents who aren't used to the "bad" class being played well. This can be hard to realize unless you have the situational awareness to also judge your opponents you fight. Are they using the right abilities at the right time? Are you able to circle strafe your back towards a wall before a knockback? Do they use the correct cooldowns at the correct time?

I can't even count the number of times I've been able to put my back to a wall, or used transendence speed to outrange a knockback after a leap when no wall was availible on huttball. I still know for a fact this was outplaying the opponent, not facing someone using the same level of knowledge and situational awareness.

 

Sentinels in this game is in a much better position than ret paladins were in season 2 of tBC in "that other game". Which means if played perfectly they are a damned hard nut to crack, and a pain in the bottom when they decide you're their target. They are STILL one damned catch-up ability short of having a fair fight with a sufficiently good opponent, and lack in utility in the knockback-championship of huttball.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Zhorx

[darthtoph]

Someone earlier also posted watchman screenshot with 370k

 

That was me. The difference is I went pug vs lvl 50 premade while OP went premade vs pug. Yet I could match his damage output easily.

 

Although I'm hardcore PvP and my legion mainly PvE, if we queue a premade I can do 500k just like that, just as other Watchmen here posted. And I've yet to benefit from Biochem.

 

For real, I started out with Focus but compared to Watchman it was so meh. That goes for both DPS and survivability.

 

 

Sentinels in this game is in a much better position than ret paladins were in season 2 of tBC in "that other game". Which means if played perfectly they are a damned hard nut to crack, and a pain in the bottom when they decide you're their target. They are STILL one damned catch-up ability short of having a fair fight with a sufficiently good opponent, and lack in utility in the knockback-championship of huttball.

 

True but if you're a decent player you'll manage just fine. Most players mess up or dunno how to play and that's just the way it is. And dunno why you threw Huttball into the mix but Sentinels can leap vertically and towards the opponents line?

 

I would like to see a Commando do that.

Edited January 11, 2012 by darthtoph

[EasymodeX]

You're describing a Sentinel/Marauder outplaying the opponent, while I'm talking about a situation in which both play equally well.

 

How is this distinction hard for you to grasp?

 

I suppose it is. Based on your logic, I outplay every player I meet.

 

Damn, I must be god.

 

 

To be honest, some things are very predictable: you touch the Sorc, they will try to escape.

 

You using a Force Choke, which has value at any point in the entire encounter, is much less predictable in general. You could use it to interrupt a heal, stop their DPS, stall for cooldowns ... Force Speed has exactly 1 use and will be used after you leap as the first or second escape vector.

 

Generally speaking, the Sorc will 99% of the time focus on using the force speed after you leap, so you can't counter it with the leap. Thus, you use the second counter.

 

 

Also as to your point 3, it has a 180 second cooldown baseline. How do you get 90 seconds? Yet another slip just like the 4 seconds earlier? Or simply bad at maths?

 

You should have -30s on it; thought it was a 2m cd. So it should be at 150s for you.

 

... Even though this is in the wrong thread.

 

 

#1 But we have a bugged talent in the focus tree giving us near permanent transendence, so that's fine.

A: Classes shouldn't be balanced around bugs. And this only "benefits" one out of three specs.

 

This isn't a discussion about Sentinels. Your side of the discussion is specifically about Watchman spec. We could go with Combat, where you have a passive 15% run speed boost and 2 roots, at least one of which bypasses resolve.

 

We could go with Focus, which, aside from the bugged Transcendence, has a 10m, 5s snare on an 18s cooldown, and a 40% run speed buff on a 10m leap.

 

Both of these specs provide significantly more contact time.

 

Also, in case you were having a hard time reading and comprehending: I mentioned Transcendence because, as Watchman, you should have a high uptime on it since you get 2 Cent every time you get hit, and you gain 4 Cent every time you drop an ability that uses focus.

 

 

They are STILL one damned catch-up ability short of having a fair fight with a sufficiently good opponent,

 

It depends on what you want to call a fair fight.

 

If you go with that "other game", a Mage could perma kite a Warrior. Yet, it was holistically balanced (or some approximation thereof) on the group level.

 

We could go with another "other game" and observe that a Shadow Warrior could perma kite and slaughter pretty much any melee DPS ...

 

Except they were severely weak in real PvP for so many versions.

 

 

At the end of the day, equal skill does not exist. Getting "close to perfect" translating to "equal" is a fallacy. Getting closer to perfect is like zooming in on a fractal. The closer you are, the more the small mistakes and errors start to become significant.

 

The two players will always have a skill differential.

[Mahdii]

Broke 300K damage today: http://www.freeimagehosting.net/gy4b4

 

Currently level 41, Focus tree is fully talented out and ive already dropped one talent into the watchmen tree to reduce sweeps focus cost.

 

Snipers and Sorcs are our hard counters it appears. Stuns, snares and cc's outweigh our cd's. Add in the inability to leap on a covered target and it all ends in a GG.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Mahdii

[EasymodeX]

Snipers are pretty tough, but you can beat them if you play sharp (and they get no teammate assistance).

 

For Sorcs, only Madness spec one are difficult. The rest are pretty /zzz.

[Mahdii]

Snipers are pretty tough, but you can beat them if you play sharp (and they get no teammate assistance).

 

For Sorcs, only Madness spec one are difficult. The rest are pretty /zzz.

 

Im sorry to say this, but you are very wrong. Both of those class' have the adequate burst along with snares/stuns/slows to properly kite.

[Retneprac]

Speaking as another fully focused Sentinel all I can say to this post is "Agree, Agree, Agree". I am also level 50 and same thing in my pvp. I am consistantly up at the top, and rarely die, maybe twice an entire round. I have so many options in the focus line. My Focus>your watchman any day of the week. I can make your life a living hell. So to the OP, Agree, Agree, Agree. Thanks for the extremely long, yet well written post.

[Anelyn]

It still amazes me that peeps argue 1v1 ideal situations, with perfect timing, everyone having full CDs / trinkets / medpac w/e, none else interfering on either side, no care for objectives yada yada.

 

You can't kite someone forever in this game same as you can't chain control someone due to resolve bar and trinket.

 

Yes snipers with all cds up starting in cover and using entrench are a tough shell to break, but it does not make them impossible to deal with by any means.

 

Same with sorcs / sages. They have some toys, but so do you. Especially as Focus spec. I could see a Watchaman having trouble sticking on a sage / sorc, but both combat and focus won't have the same difficulties to mantain uptime on target.