Remove the cooldown from Sundering Strike

[Terin]

I'm just going to be brutally honest, the current design feel clunky, bloated, and just not fun. The Guardian (both as Tank and DPS) is already struggling to keep up with other Classes, and this change would both bring it up to speed a bit, as well as make the character feel a lot more fluid.

 

Right now, I have to constantly assess whether to use Sundering Strike, or regular Strike. As a Tank, we already have a surplus of Focus to expend, so I don't see it having any real negative effect there, either. As such, it becomes little more than a bother, and as minor as it may seem, it's probably the single biggest reason I hate playing my Guardian.

 

Of course, in becoming a bread-and-butter replacement for Strike, there's the concern in whether it would do too much damage. Even though I suspect we could use the additional damage anyways, if not more throughout our other offensive abilities, just lower the damage if you want.

 

Fact is, you can't put a price on having a Class that *feels* good, and right now, the Guardian does not feel good. While it may not be the only issue with out Class, I guarantee it would go a long ways towards making the Class feel *fun*.

[deserttfoxx]

it takes 3 swings to max out sunder when you are 5 and specced right.

 

2 swings if you talent even further.

 

This is unnecessary.

[smackphat]

I'd rather they talent strike to have sunder's effect.

[deserttfoxx]

your 31 point talent adds 3 stacks, seriously are you guys having that much trouble keeping sunder on, what else are you doing with your rotation that you cant keep it up?

[xXcronicXx]

your 31 point talent adds 3 stacks, seriously are you guys having that much trouble keeping sunder on, what else are you doing with your rotation that you cant keep it up?

 

I thank he is saying the rotation is bloated and he is right

im using about 7 or 8 buttons on a rotation

Edited January 6, 2012 by xXcronicXx

[Terin]

I thank he is saying the rotation is bloated and he is right

im using about 7 or 8 buttons on a rotation

 

Exactly. It's not about applying Sunder or doing more damage, it's about getting your core rotation to feel a little less clunky. Both Strikes are essentially filler attacks; something to use when nothing else is available. Why have that functionality broken into two buttons?

[Atamasama]

This has been a request for months, back on the JK/SW beta forum it was one of the most common requests. Having to go between Sundering Strike and Strike is clumsy and awkward.

[Holy_Wars]

the sunder stack just needs to stay on the target a lot longer than it does

[Perinn]

... Really... there is a reason for us to not be able to spam a skill that lowers armor and stacks up to 5 for a 20% reduction... ((also making it that much easier to make Guardian Slash proc the big hit is kinda stupid too))

[Atamasama]

... Really... there is a reason for us to not be able to spam a skill that lowers armor and stacks up to 5 for a 20% reduction... ((also making it that much easier to make Guardian Slash proc the big hit is kinda stupid too))

That's fine. So make it only 2% per stack and have it stack up to 10 times if the concern is that it puts too much of a debuff too quickly.

[FtenEQ]

How is this clunky? So we have One button we hit every 4.5 seconds and another we spam everytime we need focus in a GCD and all our other things are on cooldown.

 

So here's how the rotation usually goes for me at level 38 on a single gold mob.

 

Things to keep in mind: Riposte on CD, Interrupts when needed, Stuns/Knockbacks kept for casts when Force Kick is on CD. Force Stasis used for 4th interrupt usually in the order of:

Force Kick

Hilt Strike

Force Kick

Force Statis

Force Kick

Force Push

Force Kick

 

I use Combat Focus as soon as possible on a pull to take advantage of Strike/Cyclonic Sweep.

 

Send Kira in

Saber Throw

Guardian Leap

Blade Storm

Sundering Strike

Guardian Slash until out of focus or Blade Storm/SS is off CD.

When low on focus and BS/SS are on CD, use Combat focus and then burn.

When low on focus and BS/SS are on CD and CF is on CD, use Strike.

 

Really it's a priority system and it's really not bloated. You just have to get used to it and it's really pretty damn easy.

 

If you would like to see this in action, just check out the video I did today @

http://www.twitch.tv/fteneq/b/304705092

 

Action starts about 2 mins in.

 

Good luck!

Edited January 7, 2012 by FtenEQ

[Terin]

The problem is that Strike is totally useless -- except when there is ABSOLUTELY nothing else you can use. It's not a regular-use skill, but it's also not one you'll never use, either. Sundering Strike is superior in every way, except sometimes you have to Strike instead of SS.

 

It's just a bad design. Generally speaking, when you have to juggle more than 6 constant-use buttons, your skill-set is bloated. I'm fine with having additional situational skills, but Strike is needed in every single fight, but it's never worth using over something else.

 

Like the other poster said, just make it a 2% debuff that stacks 10 times, if that's the concern. Or lower the damage. But the current design is just making the Guardian feel all the more slugging and unwieldy, because Strike takes up previous space on your Hotkey bar when it should be made obsolete the moment you receive Sundering Strike.

[dargor-]

They should simply remove Sundering strike and tack on the Armor Pen effect to regular Strike.

[FtenEQ]

That is not bloated. Something has to be the last-priority on the totem pole.

 

Strike is fine in it's implementation. Personally if I had to use Sundering Strike to get 10 stacks of Sunder Armor, that would be clunky.

 

You don't like this. You have a problem with the design. That does not make it:

 

Clunky

Broken

Bloated

Bad

 

Personally I have to ask what your keybinds are if you're finding it bad to use. Anytime everything else is on CD you just spam strike if you need focus. For a max of 2 GCD because then Sundering Strike will come back up. Does 3 seconds of mashing a button make it clunky?

 

It's not like we press Strike constantly as if it was Heroic Strike in WoW 3.0 where you literally pressed it every 1.5 seconds without fail for 5+ minutes straight.

 

And do not come back with "just because it's not as bad as X doesn't make it good." I like our very complicated rotation and all it's little caveats. Now I'm not going to say you don't have a right to say you don't like it, I just want to state my points in comparison to yours as they are two sides to every story.

 

But seriously, where are they keybound?

[Herew]

How is this clunky? So we have One button we hit every 4.5 seconds and another we spam everytime we need focus in a GCD and all our other things are on cooldown.

 

 

Because there are other tree's then Defensive. If you are playing Vigi tree at 50 because your guild needs you to DPS, strike becomes an annoying occasional filler and focus builder. It's being used when everything else is on CD and you got unlucky with procing Zen Strike or when you weren't able to build up enough focus for OS/PB, on average maybe once every 40 sec but sometimes twice in a row.

I think removing the CD would help the class by slightly increasing the damage output and focus regen somewhat and free up needed hotkey space.

[FtenEQ]

Because there are other tree's then Defensive. If you are playing Vigi tree at 50 because your guild needs you to DPS, strike becomes an annoying occasional filler and focus builder. It's being used when everything else is on CD and you got unlucky with procing Zen Strike or when you weren't able to build up enough focus for OS/PB, on average maybe once every 40 sec but sometimes twice in a row.

I think removing the CD would help the class by slightly increasing the damage output and focus regen somewhat and free up needed hotkey space.

 

I'll give you that, I apologize as I was speaking strictly from a defensive spec standpoint.

 

However I dislike that hitting a button a max of twice every 4.5 seconds is perceived as excessive. I think that is completely nit-picking. Unless there are cases where you are pressing it much more than twice in a span and then something is very wrong.

 

Remove the CD of Sundering Strike is fine if you like. Doesn't matter to me a whole bunch as I can play that style just as well as I can play the current implementation. I have plenty of keybinds to go around still. I think I'm up to like 22 or something and have space for another 5 or something.

 

You can't possibly be hurting for hotkey space, there's so many modifiers.

 

Have you used Shift + 1, 2, 3, 4, 5?

Have you used Shift + F, G, C, X, T, R, V?

 

The only thing I think is a terrible idea is the having to stack Sunder 10 times instead of 5.

 

Also, all of this is subjective anyway. I'm never going to prove you wrong, you're never going to prove me wrong. But I will try to help any way I can. Fun =/= Fun to two different people!

Edited January 7, 2012 by FtenEQ

[Herew]

However I dislike that hitting a button a max of twice every 4.5 seconds is perceived as excessive. I think that is completely nit-picking. Unless there are cases where you are pressing it much more than twice in a span and then something is very wrong.

 

You missunderstand, it's not so much the removal of sundering strikes CD as it is the removal of a next to worthless filler skill, i.e. Strike and it's replacement with Sundering strike that I advocate.

 

As for the hotkeys I currently have Q,W,A,D,R,T,G and those shift modified + 1-5 as well as 1-9 on my Razer Naga bound to Skills useable in PvP, as well as one trinket and healthpack. I can't really use shift + numbers because my keyboard is somewhat large. This would require me to move my middle finger off E, which I need for constant movement, since tab targetting is **** and you don't always wanna target the nearest target.

[FtenEQ]

You missunderstand, it's not so much the removal of sundering strikes CD as it is the removal of a next to worthless filler skill, i.e. Strike and it's replacement with Sundering strike that I advocate.

 

As for the hotkeys I currently have Q,W,A,D,R,T,G and those shift modified + 1-5 as well as 1-9 on my Razer Naga bound to Skills useable in PvP, as well as one trinket and healthpack. I can't really use shift + numbers because my keyboard is somewhat large. This would require me to move my middle finger off E, which I need for constant movement, since tab targetting is **** and you don't always wanna target the nearest target.

 

Ehhh, I don't mind it. Also yeah I'm with you on the Naga, I wasn't going to advocate it's use just in case someone doesn't have one I didn't want to make it seem like it was required in playing a JG.

 

I have to say that I don't know if we'll get that change. We'd basically be playing Prot warriors of WoW(in regards to once you got Devastate you got rid of Sunder) which I can definitely do and don't mind. I just don't know if we really "need" it from a gameplay standpoint.

 

Though I would say try a few of the more rare skills being bound to Shift +1, 2, 3 at least. PvE cooldowns are usually a good one, though I have mine bound to my naga and then I have other things bound to Shift + 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

[Terin]

Oh, I know we don't *NEED* it, in terms of functioning. But I think it would make the Class *feel* a lot better. Strike is that ability that you use now and then, which basically has absolutely now use except as an Auto-attack that you manually have to press.

 

By removing the cooldown from Sundering Strike, it would let us forego Strike completely, without having a large impact on the playstyle. It's just that, an ease-of-use addition. Having to squeeze Strike in on the UI is a constant headache, and as someone who prefers Hotkeys over Clicking, it's just feels kind of redundant to be forced to use it on the few occasions it does need to be used.

[Atamasama]

Oh, I know we don't *NEED* it, in terms of functioning. But I think it would make the Class *feel* a lot better. Strike is that ability that you use now and then, which basically has absolutely now use except as an Auto-attack that you manually have to press.

 

By removing the cooldown from Sundering Strike, it would let us forego Strike completely, without having a large impact on the playstyle. It's just that, an ease-of-use addition. Having to squeeze Strike in on the UI is a constant headache, and as someone who prefers Hotkeys over Clicking, it's just feels kind of redundant to be forced to use it on the few occasions it does need to be used.

Exactly. If I could avoid using Strike completely, it would make Guardian feel so much smoother. As it is now, it feels like playing a piano with one key out of tune. Aside from Strike, I love the flow of the abilities my Guardian has, it kind of reminds me of my Guardian in LotRO that had a nice, smooth, enjoyable rhythm to its abilities.

[Felaed]

Remove the CD on Sundering, but only allow the extra focus from skill tree to proc once every 4.5 seconds.

 

Slight buff to JK ability to stack debuffs.

 

No change in focus generation, except you remove the throttle for the inept.

 

Decreases the bloat in the rotation (read as "bindings/hotkeys" more than rotation), ups the skillcap a little for those who can switch targets/make sure their sunders generate 2 focus.

 

Problems?

 

Pommel/Opportune REALLY need reworks though. They're just ridiculously awkward usability wise right now.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Felaed

[LaManoNera]

By level 20, I automatically knew when the CD of Sundering Strike was up and hit it again like clockwork every single time.

 

This issue is blown way out of proportion.

[FtenEQ]

If anything I'll concede that it would be a QoL(Quality of Life) improvement, however I don't really think it's a big deal still.

 

Though we'll see!

[Felaed]

If anything I'll concede that it would be a QoL(Quality of Life) improvement, however I don't really think it's a big deal still.

 

Though we'll see!

 

And that's kind of the point. JKs need all the QoL love they can get comparatively. Lack of Range, and minimum range restrictions make things harder than they need to be when compared to the other tank classes to the point that they appear underpowered.

 

They're similar skillcap with a higher degree of difficulty. That needs to be looked at in SOME way, and numbers buffs don't really fit the bill.

[truevalon]

... Really... there is a reason for us to not be able to spam a skill that lowers armor and stacks up to 5 for a 20% reduction... ((also making it that much easier to make Guardian Slash proc the big hit is kinda stupid too))

 

Arsenal Mercs/Gunnery commandos say hello. They can spam a skill that stacks to 5 for a 20% reduction.

Edited January 7, 2012 by truevalon