commendation vendors ruin economy/crafting

[ademnus]

no one buys mods from artificers because they just get them from vendors.

[Bovronius]

there shouldnt be any item drops or rewards at all, only salvaged left overs from slain opponents. Crafting should account for 95% of all goods, with a small % of lowbie trash able to be purchased from NPC vendors.

 

<3 Galaxies

[Syas]

 

when someone can get orange gear at level 15 through commendation vendors, and keep that gear up to date for the ENTIRE leveling process, through commendation vendors, you are going to have a fubared econcomy.

 

I think you are overestimating the ability to keep multiple orange items up to date with mods from commendation vendors.

 

Let's assume you make 25 commendations per planet. You need 3 items per orange piece (Barrel/Hilt or Armor, Mod, Enhancement). That comes out to 11 commendations per piece. If you are making 25 per planet you can keep 2 orange items "up-to-date" and on par with similar blue level equipment.

 

At 41, I have the following orange items available to me:

Main Weapon

Chest

Legs

Helm

Gloves

Boots

 

That means, realistically only two Orange items are going to be "up-to-date" (from commendations) for me at any given time, that is 4 slots that I either have to get quest/crafted (hi crafters!) gear placed into or player made mods for (hi crafters!).

 

See, not as bad as you think!

Edited January 11, 2012 by Syas

[sskinzz]

I think you are overestimating the ability to keep multiple orange items up to date with mods from commendation vendors.

 

Let's assume you make 25 commendations per planet. You need 3 items per orange piece (Barrel/Hilt or Armor, Mod, Enhancement). That comes out to 11 commendations per piece. If you are making 25 per planet you can keep 2 orange items "up-to-date" and on par with similar blue level equipment.

 

At 41, I have the following orange items available to me:

Main Weapon

Chest

Legs

Helm

Gloves

Boots

 

That means, realistically only two Orange items are going to be "up-to-date" (from commendations) for me at any given time, that is 4 slots that I either have to get quest/crafted (hi crafters!) gear placed into or player made mods for (hi crafters!).

 

See, not as bad as you think!

 

what about the crafters that make all these types of armor - chest, legs, gloves, etc?

what about the crafters that make mods, enhancements, hilts?

what about the crafters that make sabers, guns, weapons?

 

points being, its hard for these crafters to sell anything when they can all be gotten for next to nothing (commendatin tokens).

 

the economy is pretty much dead and it will only get worse with current systems in place

 

there is another thread started today stating the basically credits are "worthless". and its true... many people have a ton of credits and really nothing to spend them on. some of the reason for that is, is because everything in this game is so easy to acquire. ive never played a game that was so EASY to get wealthy.

 

yes, crafting skills cost alot and are definately a huge money sink..... but the overall consensus is that crafting skills are a waste. and alot of the reason is, IS because of commendations and because at level 50 the orange gear is weak.

 

whatever, it is what it is. bottum line, is crafting and the economy in swtor sucks. EVERYONE is rich, and with nothing to spend money on.

 

need appearance tab and get rid of orange gear all together

[Syas]

what about the crafters that make all these types of armor - chest, legs, gloves, etc?

what about the crafters that make mods, enhancements, hilts?

what about the crafters that make sabers, guns, weapons?

 

points being, its hard for these crafters to sell anything when they can all be gotten for next to nothing (commendatin tokens).

 

the economy is pretty much dead and it will only get worse with current systems in place

 

there is another thread started today stating the basically credits are "worthless". and its true... many people have a ton of credits and really nothing to spend them on. some of the reason for that is, is because everything in this game is so easy to acquire. ive never played a game that was so EASY to get wealthy.

 

yes, crafting skills cost alot and are definately a huge money sink..... but the overall consensus is that crafting skills are a waste. and alot of the reason is, IS because of commendations and because at level 50 the orange gear is weak.

 

whatever, it is what it is. bottum line, is crafting and the economy in swtor sucks. EVERYONE is rich, and with nothing to spend money on.

 

need appearance tab and get rid of orange gear all together

 

You aren't reading my response. Let's try again; I get to pick 2 Orange items out of 6-7 slots I need gear in to keep updated.

 

What happens to crafters who make armor? Well I picked an Orange Gun and an Orange Chestpiece to keep updates, so I need Legs, Gloves, Belt, Boots, and a Helmet!

 

What happens to crafters who make weapons/barrels? Well now I can buy your stuff instead of updating my Orange Gun so I can update something else instead!

 

What happens to crafters who make mods? Well now I can update more than two Orange items!

 

 

 

There is a place for crafters, do Orange items take some business away from crafters? I can agree to that; do they make crafters worthless? Absolutely not. The sky is not falling.

 

I am a 400 Armormech, I know this is the case because I am constantly crafting new gear for myself to keep my "non-orange" slots (currently everything but weapon and chest) updated!

Edited January 11, 2012 by Syas

[Natarii]

The current crafting situation is really 2 different discussions: lvl 1-49, and lvl 50.

 

1) Lvl 1-49: Crafting during levelling does scale pretty well. As an artificer I was able to make my own Enhancement, Hilt, and color Crystal upgrades for my orange gear - which I use in every available slot I can find. I could not make Mod or Armoring - my best friend IRL and fellow guildmate is a cybertech - he made those for me and we swapped. Also, planet commendations came in handy to fill in slots that either we didnt have a pattern for, or one was outlevelled by the other.

 

2) Lvl 50: I cannot make anything higher than rank 22 Enhancements, Hilts, or lvl 47 Color Crystals. Daily commendations, of which you could potentially obtain upwards of 24ish per day (I'm at work and trying to remember exactly how many dailies there are so my math may be off!), give you access to not only a higher rank of enhancements and armoring (rank 23), but the ARTIFACT quality version of it! Crafters can't compete with this. 8 commendations are all that are required to obtain 1 of these items, after being 50 for almost 2 weeks, I have these rank 23 artifact mods in almost every slot that I was previously making for myself. I have little incentive to craft rank 22 enhancements when rank 23 artifact quality ones are so readily available from vendors.

[Syas]

2) Lvl 50: I cannot make anything higher than rank 22 Enhancements, Hilts, or lvl 47 Color Crystals. Daily commendations, of which you could potentially obtain upwards of 24ish per day (I'm at work and trying to remember exactly how many dailies there are so my math may be off!), give you access to not only a higher rank of enhancements and armoring (rank 23), but the ARTIFACT quality version of it! Crafters can't compete with this. 8 commendations are all that are required to obtain 1 of these items, after being 50 for almost 2 weeks, I have these rank 23 artifact mods in almost every slot that I was previously making for myself. I have little incentive to craft rank 22 enhancements when rank 23 artifact quality ones are so readily available from vendors.

 

I know what I am about to propose is hypothetical, but how will you feel about the situation when rank 24 enhancements drop in Raids?

[Natarii]

I know what I am about to propose is hypothetical, but how will you feel about the situation when rank 24 enhancements drop in Raids?

 

If I could craft rank 23's, I'd have absolutely no problem being upgraded by operation drops. I just think that crafters should have the opportunity to make operation-ready gear. I don't advocate replacing raid drops with crafted items, what I am in favor of is craftables being equivalent to pre-raid gear, or even first tier raid gear. Craftables should be an avenue of the 'gearing up' process to get IN to operations. What happens from there is further and further upgrades, and I don't think craftables should be the tippy top of the gear totem pole. I'm just advocating a little bit more relavence for the level 50 player to actually craft enhancements, mods, armoring, hilts, etc because right now, the vendors have replaced that.

[TheRealBoz]

I think you are overestimating the ability to keep multiple orange items up to date with mods from commendation vendors.

I can't "overestimate" something I've actually experienced for levels 38-50. I'm a 400 Armormech Commando, and there are currently two pieces of armor on me that I crafted myself: belt and bracers. Orange headgear, chestpiece, gloves, leggings, boots and cannon. I have had no problems keeping all my orange gear up to date for the past three planets. In fact, I currently have equipped ALL blue Corellia commendation modifications except for a Belsavis world boss drop purple armoring and a purple 21 enhancement I got from a heroic quest some time ago. The kicker? I am not yet done with Corellia. I have done no Heroic quests on Corellia. I finished up only two of the five areas, and am half way through the third. I accepted no mods from other players (except for a color crystal, but those aren't available via commendations anyway). What I did do is one single Directive 7 run, which gave me enough commendations (12) to upgrade my boots.

Let's assume you make 25 commendations per planet.

...and that is your first mistake. You only make 25 commendations per planet if you do NOTHING except for the class and main planet quest.

[Syas]

I can't "overestimate" something I've actually experienced for levels 38-50. I'm a 400 Armormech Commando, and there are currently two pieces of armor on me that I crafted myself: belt and bracers. Orange headgear, chestpiece, gloves, leggings, boots and cannon.

 

...and that is your first mistake. You only make 25 commendations per planet if you do NOTHING except for the class and main planet quest.

 

Really? Because I am 41 and just finished Hoth, I have done every bonus series and every side quest (admittedly except for the Heroics). Now that said, I am also a 400 Armormech Commando.

 

Based on what you are listing as your orange gear, that would require 11 commendations per piece - so you are saying you made 66 commendations per planet? 25 might be low; but expecting 66 commendations per planet is just wishful thinking.

 

EDIT: I realize you are talking about Level 50, my comments are referencing the 1-49 process.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Syas

[TrevNYC]

no one buys mods from artificers because they just get them from vendors.

 

Everyone buys crystals from artificers because they can't get them from vendors.

[Echartea]

Well, I don't know about removing the commendation vendors or removing mods -from- the commendation vendors. It may or may not prove useful, but what I do know is that if they took a route like that, I'd strongly prefer they made all flavors of modifications available earlier on (instead of Guardian Armoring/Mod/Hilt only available at 33 and above) through crafting.

 

As it stands, you can only get your tanking variant on hilts and barrels (ie, more Endurance than <insert primary stat here> through the commendation vendors up until aroundabouts level 33. (And believe me, I tried buying Guardian Hilt 7s and the like from the vendors and reverse engineering them in hopes that I'd get an Adv. Guardian Hilt out of it, but no dice))

[beaujames]

ummm... not its not. its not expensive doing repairs, new crew skill, crew skills etc...

 

and if you shop around just a bit, you wont need to spend 10,000 on a piece of gear...unless you want epic gear.

 

and yes, your right, in that commendations make it easy (easy mode) to keep your gear current and save your credits.... which makes crafting essentially almost worthless other than just a little side game. what happened to crafting being an essesntial part of having a successful journey through an mmo game?

 

im actually advocating them un-nerfing slicing, so that people like yourself that dont like crafting, dont have to take it to have the money/credits to be able to progress through the game.

 

un-nerf slicing, get rid of commendation vendors, and both sides (crafters/non-crafters) will be happy. as it is now, non-crafters get what they want, and crafters are screwed.

 

I haven't played an MMO in a long time that had crafting focused for leveling. I remember pumping tons of gold into leveling armorsmith in WoW and not getting any benefit but gold loss until I got into the endgame resist gear. In the time it takes to craft stuff, you would have outleveled the item and got a better quest item.

[ShadowHntr]

I haven't read the entire topic, just the first few posts, but I want to say something about the commendation vendors...

 

The gear they sell, while it is orange gear, people, like me who don't simply want orange gear just for the sake of orange gear, but want it to not only look good, but still keep it's viability as you raise levels. For me, I spend my entire leveling process looking for gear that complemented my character, yes, I bought gear from the commendation vendors, but most of it was really ugly...now that I've found most of the gear I like, I've been using my commendations to purchase the mods and armoring I need, because as an Artificer, I can't make them.

 

I've also tried to support the economy, I always look for mods and armoring on the GTM, buy can't find anything for my level of 50 because no one on my server seems to use Cybertech very much...so if the commendation vendors were removed, or their prices inflated, I'd have even more underleveled gear....

[Kibaken]

Everyone buys crystals from artificers because they can't get them from vendors.

 

While they level, yes. Once they hit 50 none of the craftable crystals compare to the stuff you can get from PvE/PvP gear.

 

Edit: I take that back. You can get full sabers from commendation vendors, including color crystals.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Kibaken

[Daerthalus]

There are two different perspectives here.

 

1 - Crafting for monetary reasons.

 

This view point is that you are a crafter to make marketable goods, sell these goods and make money.

 

Wheter or not your crafting professions grants you personally any benefits is meaningless, as the only personal benefit is the fact you do not have to pay the markup for the goods you are makeing.

 

Under this view point, you are indeed correct. Commendation vendors are ruining the market for your goods and services.

 

The obvious solution would be to have the professions craft something superior to what can be obtained from commendation vendors for a given level. Have commendation vendors sell Blue gear with Ratings lower than equivalent Blue crafted gear, but the same required level.

 

 

2 - Crafting for personal (non-monetary reasons.)

 

On the other hand, many people look at the crafting professions from a different perspective than money making.

 

These people likely have played "another game" and are used to the concept that professions are not just for RP purposes and that they are supposed to provide something unique or for some something "superior" to support your character.

 

This means that a profession should not just be about the money you can make with it, but also a unique buff or bonus that comes with being a member of that profession.

 

This is entirely a different issue, one that is unaffected by commendation vendor gear.

 

In my opinion this is where the 'VALUE' of a profession is to be found, and this is what is lacking in the current crafting system.

 

As it stands only Biomed and Cybertech provides a unique benefit exceeding the benefits obtainable from non-BioChem players.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Daerthalus

[TheRealBoz]

Really? Because I am 41 and just finished Hoth, I have done every bonus series and every side quest (admittedly except for the Heroics). Now that said, I am also a 400 Armormech Commando.

 

Based on what you are listing as your orange gear, that would require 11 commendations per piece - so you are saying you made 66 commendations per planet? 25 might be low; but expecting 66 commendations per planet is just wishful thinking.

 

EDIT: I realize you are talking about Level 50, my comments are referencing the 1-49 process.

 

Doing all quests plus all the heroics once, without the bonus quests, will net you something like 35-45 commendations on "large" planets, such as Nar Shaddaa or Belsavis. Afterwards, the bonus series and associated heroics give an average of 20 commendations.

An added bonus are Flashpoints, because each planet has an associated FP where mobs can drop commendations, and the completion of which rewards commendations as well. I think it's something like 12-18 per such FP, but some are much less (Red Reaper, for example).

Bottom line, it is not hard to keep yourself updated blue mods for orange gear. It's not trivially easy, but it's far from an actual effort.

[bboudreaux]

BioWare should nerf the gear mods available on commendation vendors and give crafting skills that produce gear mods the ability to craft better than they currently can, and better than what is on the commendation vendors.

 

They should leave the gear on commendation vendors as-is, or alternatively ensure that all slotted gear always comes with empty slots.

 

In this manner, BioWare will create a market for at least some crafting professions to have actual value throughout the life of the game.

 

BioWare should also implement bind-on-pickup schematics for armor and weapons, that drop from difficult objectives on difficult operations, that are better and/or cooler-looking than anything available through any other means in the game.

 

Give crafters a fighting chance at producing something of value.

 

 

Or maybe people can learn to play the game instead of asking for easy mode and everything handed to them on a silver platter?

[TheRealBoz]

Or maybe people can learn to play the game instead of asking for easy mode and everything handed to them on a silver platter?

 

This post makes no sense. Did you even read the post you were replying to?

In case you didn't, let me explain the exchange here:

Him: I think people can get gear too easily.

You: You want everything to be handed to you!?

 

Go and learn to play the game. Learn you some knowledge. Learn you the secret of selling an item at a loss and making a profit from it.

[Thurgrayden]

No vendors should ever sell an item of better quality than what can be crafted by a player with the appropriate skill level. I've no problem with the occasional rare drop that is better, but it defeats the purpose of having a crafting system if you are going to let NPC's sell better items.

 

I believe (and fervently hope) that this is something they will address and balance out in the future.

[Babayaga]

Hi

 

I can only fullheartedly agree with Thurgrayden. The Balance between drops and Crafting is always tricky. I am an artificer myself, so I can say, most of the crystals and enhancements I can create are well equal to endgame content, which makes the profession quite usefull. Considering that a Blue craft can be reverse engineered with several different outcomes, gives you a nice and expensive variety to streamline your equipment.

 

Disappoining where the Lightsabers and Relics I can build. They are weaker by a lot that the finetuned orange one I carry since Level 10, or the PvP equivalents. Sad, considering that I need three Hard instances and a flexible group ( so in worst case 12 Flashpoint runs ) to get the special ingredients.

 

Idea for especially Armortech, Armstech and Synchweaving.

Make Plans for empty Items. No Stats, Orange stuff, empty slots, with Crafter Unique skins. This would give these Professions an unique edge over other games and would increase the variety of outfits out there in the game.

 

Those recipes could drop in Flashpoints, or via the missons of for example Hacking, or even Investigation, Underworld Trading and others.

 

Another idea, I saw in DAOC back in the days, was a simple command called /hood which triggered a hooded charakter, to lower the hood, or put it back on. This seems very interessting, especially for the zounds of Jedi and Sith out there . I am no programmer, but since there are allready a lot of Robes with Hoods up and down, it strikes me as not so hard to do.

 

 

One thing I would definetly like to see is, a bigger difference in Armor.

Most Light Armor in the Endgame ends up between 2500 ~ 3200 Armorrating

Medium ranges, from what I've seen 3000 ~ 3500 and Heavy between 3500 ~ and 4000.

 

These jumps appear a little low to me. In PvP this means, the Light Armor guys are about 10% less damage resistant than a Tank on equal gear, but easily dish out the tripple amount of damage. If I, as a Jedi Counselor get attacked by a Tank, I feel pity for them. They jump at me, I push them back, they get dazed and I just stone them to death. At best I loose 1/4 of my life, bevore the poor souls hits the ground. I shield myself, which absorbs certain amount of damage, and most of them just don't dish out enough to break my shield at all. Must be very frustrating for them. If the actually break through, I heal myself, no biggy. Seems a little unbalanced.

 

So I would scale it like Light 2000 ~ 2500 , Medium 3500 ~ 4200 and Heavy 4500 ~ 5500. Makes the Armor more durable.

Also, I see a lot of tanks with relatively low Hit points. Most Enchancements and Mods have a considerably low Endurance on it, at least those that come with Shield Absorption, or Defense Rating and Shield Rating.

We Counselors and Sorcerers usualy dominate the Battlegrounds, simply because we have as much, sometimes even more Health than the rest on the field, we can shield ourselfes and heal ourselfes and yet can deal an uholy amount of damage, very quickly on single targets and group targets. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the occasional three hit of another player, but it get old very quick. I prefer challenges

 

It should be a simple scale.

High Damage -> Squishy

Low Damage -> Durable

 

If we drop 3 ingredients , Damage , Durabilty and Crowd Control/Utility , it should always be :

Pick any TWO , never three.

 

Last but not least :

CC Immunity in Battlegrounds.

Either remove them completly, or make it visible to oppents that they are immune. A lot of classes waste their immens cooldowns on the CC abilities in Battlegrounds quite often.

 

And fix these abilities that require a stunned or helpless enemy and deal different damage to weak and standard or Strong opponents. They all fail to work on Elites / Champions ( which I would consider Strong ) and Players alike.

 

Thanks

[chton]

<3 Galaxies

 

Yup so many people did they closed it down... oh wait lets steal some ideas from a bomb of a game makes sense.

[DarthWalt]

In alot of ways I think your on to alot of very good points that need to be addressed.

However I also think that your confusing econimics here. See this is a loot based Economy. Meaning anything looted is going to have the chance to yield the best gear. If you want the best gear to come from crafting you are looking for a player based economy like SWG had. This is were you have players making the best gear not the game.

 

The point is the game is still very young and like all crafting profs aside from SWG in other game this seem to follow the same pat. You get crafting skills that help you lvl. But once your maxed lvling your looking to replace this gear with raid and other group content gear.

 

You will likely find some kind of pat. or formula that will let your crew crafting skill make something people want. So far we seem to have the Arty crystals from the buff quests on tat and hoth.

 

I do think they put way too much really good gear on commy vendors. It seems like I was able to get comepletely new gear every 2 planets with 8-14 commies a pop. And then forget the 2 or 7 commy mods. It took way too much away from crafting skills at the lvls they were ment to help.

 

So I think they need to address the lvling area of the game for commies cause it kills crafting. However for end game I think it is fine as is.

[Vlacke]

Commendation vendors and their gear are just fine as is and anyone who says otherwise is plain wrong, topics like this are just a distraction from the real problem at hand that needs to be addressed.

 

Just like the people who are yelling "NERF BIOCHEM" are also wrong.

Biochem is actually fine and useful unlike the rest of the lot, i personally didn't take it as my crafting skill but i still don't regret that decision hoping that other crafting skills will improve.

 

The real big issue here is the fact that ALL crafting skills except Biochem need to be seriously improved and made much more useful especially at top level.

[RocNessMonster]

I am going to echo this again. Tell one game during a launch period (less than 3 months) has crafting that outshines world drops (either through token exchange or actual drops). Please just one. I myself cannot think of any. Especially games that have been tweaked from World of Warcraft's MMO model. I'll even trump that again. I cannot think of any game that is based off of WoW's basic model that has any crafted items better than drops. Crafting in WoW provided augments to gear that made it better but that came way after vanilla (i think BC xpac basically added a lot of the cool stuff).

 

Everquest 2, when it launched the BIS were crafted raid drops created by players.