MMO's (In general) biggest flaw...(Tank, healer, DPS)

[bboudreaux]

except for a timesink.

 

every game you have and ever will play is a time sink, period!

[MikeMonger]

Monsters should be attacking whoever is hurting them the most... or whoever is weakest, depending on your AI.

 

Then either every encounter is a wipe, since there's no way to protect classes with less health, or everybody plays the same high health classes.

 

Which is no different than the other proposal to make everybody the same.

 

Would you play a game where there's only 1 class and 1 way to fight for any significant amount of time? I wouldn't.

[Amiracle]

Well making everyone the same is a potential solution. You can give DPS, healing, and tanking abilities to everyone. Get rid of the whole concept of aggro, and have the enemy mobs attack players at random instead of focusing on a single tank. You wouldn't be able to just stand in the back of the room and lay down dps on the boss. When a mob targets you, it's time to use your tanking abilities to survive (maybe switch from a dps rotation to a tanking rotation), until it switches to someone else. Now everyone is a tank, and all encounters demand a basic knowledge of tanking from all players (as opposed to the standard system of "take Patchwerk over there and keep him still, while I throw fireballs at his head").

 

Then get rid of dedicated healing specs as well. Attach healing secondary effects to players' DPS abilities (think RIFT's chloromancer). The more DPS you do, the more healing you do. Now every player is equally responsible for damaging the boss, protecting themselves from attack, and healing themselves and their fellow raiders.

 

I'm not suggesting they'll ever implement this in SWTOR, but there are alternatives to the holy trinity that has become standard in every game now.

 

Edit: Giving every class tanking, healing, and DPSing abilities doesn't mean they would all work the same way though. They could still have unique abilities and rotations/priorities. Marauders and Gunslingers are both pure DPS, but they don't play the same way.

 

And how do you tailor your gear to do dps, heals, and tank all at the same time?

 

You don't.

 

You homoginize everything so basicly there is only one class "AllPURPOSE" and only one stat. Kinda takes away from the whole RPG thing doesn't it?

[qqemokitty]

The problem, as I see it, is you -- that is: MMO players.

 

No, the problem is people who don't like MMO style games playing them and complaining about the Holy Trinity. It exists because it works, and many of us love it.

 

I've been playing a dedicated healer in MMOs for 8 years now. I know others who do the same, or who tank. These games are not based on "realism" like your examples, so your argument for tanking and threat being senseless are null.

 

I have no interest in GW2 right now. I don't know anything about it. And honestly, I feel good about that. I've tried most of the "big" MMO's that have come out since I first was introduced to the genre and I'm tired of trying new ones. SWG and then WoW were home to me for years of enjoyment and I hope TOR is my new home.

 

 

I do hope GW2 turns out better than GW1 though. Because I did try that and it was awful.

Edited January 5, 2012 by qqemokitty

[Cameirus]

I find people who wave the GW2 flag don't seem to comprehend the concept that some of us like being dedicated tanks and healers.

 

But, I see GW2 existence as positive. It will attract those who hate the holy trinity, who are usually DPSers, so it will mean the other MMOs will have a better balance.

 

I'm a life long tank. I love aggro management, the whole 9 yards.

 

Unfortunately, GW2 doesn't have anything for me.

 

I dont hate the holy trinity. I just think its limiting.

 

I usually heal or dps, but I see that as being the advantage of GW:2. I like to support the group, and ditching defined roles lets me do what is needed when, not be limited to one role. I can support when needed, dps when needed.

 

Its not that you dont need dps/support you do, its just that anyone can step up, rather than spend 2 hours /lfg healer/tank for XXXXXX

[Yfelsung]

I dont hate the holy trinity. I just think its limiting.

 

I usually heal or dps, but I see that as being the advantage of GW:2. I like to support the group, and ditching defined roles lets me do what is needed when, not be limited to one role. I can support when needed, dps when needed.

 

Its not that you dont need dps/support you do, its just that anyone can step up, rather than spend 2 hours /lfg healer/tank for XXXXXX

 

I like a group being dependant on each other. I like the idea that if one player dies at the wrong time, the group fails.

 

and I join guilds, which means I do not have the "lfg xxx" problem.

[Abanoth]

I'd much rather spend my time looking for a certain role/waiting for a que to open up than playing. Also I love dealing with players who think they're God's Gift to MMOs because they're in said role. Edited January 5, 2012 by Abanoth

[Rhinoplat]

And how do you tailor your gear to do dps, heals, and tank all at the same time?

 

You don't.

 

You homoginize everything so basicly there is only one class "AllPURPOSE" and only one stat. Kinda takes away from the whole RPG thing doesn't it?

 

Lol - Exactly. The OP wants to vanilla every class so we have an FPS. I'm here to play a Star Wars themed MMORPG (emphasis on RPG) where I know my role and I want others to play their role.

 

Actually the OP is not concerned with classes as much as he wants to have cross server queues. His real intent is hidden but not deep enough that you can't see it clearly. He cleverly used Tank/Healer/DPS as a way to show that a cross server queue is needed.

 

No on cross server queues.

 

Yes on better tank aggro mechanics. Even then, better AI for the mobs is not going to take away the fact that you will need some type of heavy HP meat shield, a healer to heal anyone and everyone in the group and someone to do damage to the mob.

[Chanamel]

I like a group being dependant on each other. I like the idea that if one player dies at the wrong time, the group fails.

 

and I join guilds, which means I do not have the "lfg xxx" problem.

 

Good logic. Only people outside of guilds have problems looking for groups.

[Nytak]

The tank, healer, DPS mindset for grouping. This doesn't work in the long run. You will force certain players to play a healer or tank when they really just want to DPS.

 

The ONLY MMO that I have seen that makes this work is World of Warcraft. Don't flame cause I said WoW, I have played just about every single MMO for the past 14 years.

 

Keywords: Cross server dungeon finder

 

 

Bioware said that they don't want dungeon queues (even per server) because they want the community to interact. Well Bioware, what happens in a few months when there barely is a community and this "cross server queue" is still demanded. You are in the same boat as you are now except minus a ton of players.

 

The amount of players who enjoy playing a DPS class outweighs the amount of tanks and healers. It makes no sense for games to expect every group to have a role not many people want to play. You need to consider the PSYCHOLOGICAL aspect. There might be 5 tanks on, but maybe all of them ONLY group with friends/guildmates. Thats perfectly fine, but what about that large chunk of playerbase that is a solo player or plays with a few friends who happen to be all DPS.

 

The entire mechanic of tank, healer, DPS makes no logical sense except for a timesink. Let's wait 2 hours to do a 1 hour dungeon.... That's 3 hours and that is assuming you complete it. Risk vs. reward.... Why waste 3 hours? I'll honestly play a different game.

 

Well, I like playing a tank, so your first point is kinda shot down there... Sometimes I do just wanna DPS, and I have a Commando just for that. After all, everybody needs a break from their main.

 

You are correct about more people playing DPS than Healers and Tanks (usually combined even), but you seem to be assuming that the people who write these games are somehow mysteriously oblivious to this fact. But a 4 person group gives you 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 dps. You know, it's almost like they knew that more people would pick DPS, otherwise groups would be balanced around 1 of each, and we'd be running 3 man flashpoints.

 

So far, every game that has strayed away from the holy trinity usually gets complaints about homogonization of classes, because that is essentially what is required in order to break away from that in a manner that feels balanced to every class.

[Yfelsung]

Good logic. Only people outside of guilds have problems looking for groups.

 

I am of the firm belief that guild play is how MMOs are "meant" to be played.

 

PuGs are how you learn the game and meet people to eventually make guilds with.

 

PuGs are tee-ball.

 

Guilds are baseball.

[Kurenar]

Honestly the most fun I have in any MMO is the early stage where I'm not forced into a specific role. On my BH for example in low-level flashpoints like Hammer Station i've had groups that are struggling through it, so at times i'm able to help with healing and tanking as well as dps on the fly if I need to. If everyone can do this all the way to max level and content is designed with that in mind, steamrolling due to 'everyone does everything' is not an issue - the game becomes more fun because less time is spent watching threat/health meters and more time spent paying attention to encounter mechanics and uniquely adjusting your own playstyle on-the-fly to suit the group's needs. This has a nice side effect of players paying less attention to how much damage/s, heals/s, threat/s is being done and caring more about players actively participating, dodging what they need to dodge, helping out in unique and smart ways, being creative with their playstyle.

 

What is fun is picking a class that sounds fun to you, a class you identify with, that you can 'get into'. In most MMOs (including TOR) I am always torn because I really want to play X class, but perhaps they don't have a heal or tank spec so I settle for something else to help out my guild or get into groups faster/easier.

 

Thats why in a game that implements the three-role system its kind of absurd not to allow for dual spec - we're talking specs that must be built differently (by design) based on 1) the type of play you are doing (pve/pvp), then 2) what is in demand, and 3) what you actually would enjoy the most. #3 should always be the most important choice but having a 3 role system in conjunction with not having dual spec (not to mention exponentially growing respec cost) hardly makes the 'fun choice' the most attractive for many players.

[Asquinol]

The tank, healer, DPS mindset for grouping. This doesn't work in the long run. You will force certain players to play a healer or tank when they really just want to DPS.

 

The ONLY MMO that I have seen that makes this work is World of Warcraft. Don't flame cause I said WoW, I have played just about every single MMO for the past 14 years.

Keywords: Cross server dungeon finder

 

 

Bioware said that they don't want dungeon queues (even per server) because they want the community to interact. Well Bioware, what happens in a few months when there barely is a community and this "cross server queue" is still demanded. You are in the same boat as you are now except minus a ton of players.

 

The amount of players who enjoy playing a DPS class outweighs the amount of tanks and healers. It makes no sense for games to expect every group to have a role not many people want to play. You need to consider the PSYCHOLOGICAL aspect. There might be 5 tanks on, but maybe all of them ONLY group with friends/guildmates. Thats perfectly fine, but what about that large chunk of playerbase that is a solo player or plays with a few friends who happen to be all DPS.

 

The entire mechanic of tank, healer, DPS makes no logical sense except for a timesink. Let's wait 2 hours to do a 1 hour dungeon.... That's 3 hours and that is assuming you complete it. Risk vs. reward.... Why waste 3 hours? I'll honestly play a different game.

 

You totally lost me at the bolded part.

 

EQ group dynamic was far superior to anything WoW has done. In EQ every class contributed a certain something and had a place in a group that complimented other classes.

 

Also I see you are outlining your QQ well enough, but i wonder if you could take the time to offer up whhat you think the solution may be?

 

ideas?

[ptwonline]

The problem with abolishing the trinity is that it's then hard to stop every fight from basically devolving into either:

 

a) a zerg

 

b) a taunt/kite rotation

 

c) waves of weaker mobs instead of hard-hitting bosses

 

Nobody has effectively come up with a solution for this yet, and so the trinity remains. Some games get partially away from the trinity--City of Heroes comes to mind--but elements of the trinity are stil there, just in a different form (like characters that mitigate damage instead of healing it back up).

[Seyyal]

No, the problem is people who don't like MMO style games playing them and complaining about the Holy Trinity. It exists because it works, and many of us love it.

 

/thread

[Malastare]

No offense, but you haven't thought this through. The holy trinity dynamic arose OUT of MMO gameplay, not the other way around.

 

No. The Trinity pre-dates MMOs. Perhaps not in terminology, but in the pattern. In particular, Diablo II included aggro management abilities. I get the impression that the system in D2 heavily influenced WoW, and that was the reason I picked it out.

 

NOTE: When I talk about "aggro management" I'm talking about specific abilities/attributes that attract more (or less) aggro than a character would otherwise warrant. "Doing damage" is not aggro management. Using an ability like Taunt or Passive Stance is.

 

If you remove aggro management, you have Diablo.

 

Baldur's Gate II didn't have aggro management. It worked just fine. In fact, it's regarded as one of the best RPG's. Now, it still had the fighter/healer/mage mechanic, which is probably the forerunner of the Trinity, but without aggro management. You still had teamwork. Actually, you needed teamwork (unless you were one of the insane solo-freaks).

 

There are games attempting to do what you are saying. They are different experiences, and lack the structure and particular type of fun and satisfaction that the cooperative element of MMOs currently bring.

 

Are you claiming that there is no structure or fun in games like Team Fortress 2? That players don't work together? Are you claiming that Baldur's Gate II took no coordination? Or that it was boring because every encounter was the same DPS race?

 

The truth of the matter is simply this: The system from Baldur's Gate II (no aggro management, strong class differentiation) requires a level of cooperation that I simply do not find in most MMO players. In this respect, the Trinity works because the playerbase is incapable of handling more complex relationships.

 

I understand that this is going to come off as an insult, and understand that I am not leveling it at anyone in particular. This can be said of many/all multiplayer games.

 

In the end you can't have it both ways. You either create class distinction, and clear combat roles, or you give everyone the ability to do everything in slightly different ways. One is a deeply cooperative sytem, the other is less so. They end up being very different game experiences.

 

There is a difference between "implement clear combat roles" and "use the Holy Trinity". Far too many MMO veterans think that the Holy Trinity is the only (or absolute best) way of setting up clear combat roles. Again, TF2 and other differentiated FPS games disagree with you. Baldur's Gate disagrees, too.

 

I won't say that the Trinity doesn't have it's strengths. However, being superior in design and realism isn't one of them. The Trinity is simple and it doesn't take much thinking at all to figure out how to apply it to pretty much any situation. It's restrictive enough that its easier to balance the roles. And it's simple enough that people can figure out how to approach PvP. That is: The Holy Trinity's best strength is the fact that it is so very simple.

[KittyPrawn]

I disliked when WoW introduced cross-server anything.

 

Why? Because it took away your server identity. I was fairly known (read: infamous) on my server, and I had a lot of friends on both sides that I made because I saw them a lot in PvP.

 

When cross-server groups started, it no longer mattered who was on your server. You didn't need to interact with them.

 

I personally think Bioware just needs to merge some low pop servers to try and help fill up the worlds more.

[Valkyriane]

Not everyone wants to DPS you know. My first choice is tank, second healer. I dont want EZ mode, I want responsibility. Not just DPS.. Too simple and easy.

[Chanamel]

I am of the firm belief that guild play is how MMOs are "meant" to be played.

 

PuGs are how you learn the game and meet people to eventually make guilds with.

 

PuGs are tee-ball.

 

Guilds are baseball.

 

Which has nothing to do with the fallacy of your post.

 

Guilds do not necessarily result in people being able to quickly run the dungeon they desire.

 

I've been in plenty of guilds, had trouble filling out a party with guildies, and used a cross-realm dungeon finder and loved it. Millions more like me I'm sure.

[Isende]

On the other hand, go read the city of heroes forums. Although there is a tank class in COH the game was designed to avoid the whole "holy trinity" gameplay mechanics, and still it is impossible to log on without seeing a dozen "need tank for x" or "need healzor for x" requests. And in COH referring to someone as a healer is grounds for a fight Even if the game avoids the mechanics the players will tend to slide back into the mentality that they are comfortable with.

 

it's also more than comfortable with, it's about LIKE. i LIKE healing, and i also LIKE tanking. sadly, the number of people who have the mindset (translate, patience) to tank or heal for pugs is diminishing, simply because pugs tend to be full of people who 1) ninja loot, 2) refuse to allow the tank to tank then cry when they die or 3) are just simply too stupid to live. so in my case, i tank and heal mainly within my guild; i'll cross guilds with people i've run across and hang with them and tank/heal with them -- but ask me to heal a pug? puhleeze. get just one stupid dps standing in the fire, then flaming me, and i'm done.

 

i don't HAVE to deal with it, so i don't.

 

now, on the other side, i actually like dpsing, too. it's a break. it's easy, it's laid-back, i can just pew pew and not worry about collecting that mob that ran away, or trying to keep up the dps who refuses to run outta the fire. somehow, with my guild and cross-guild connections, i have enough people around that i can run my dps without having to cry into a lfg, as well.

 

rift answered some of the holy trinity thing by introducing a fourth class -- support. support was actually a lot of fun, and a vitally useful class. support could assist with buffs, could off-heal, or just dps. being able to have five roles was a bonus; nearly everyone had a support spec and could step up to the plate when it was needed.

 

i guess my point, boiled down, is simple: some of us LIKE the roles. we LIKE the adrenaline rush of tanking, and doing it well. we LIKE keeping a group from wiping, when by all rights it shoulda wiped. it stokes us. i'd be bored to tears if i didn't have the option to tank when i wanna tank, and heal when i wanna heal.

[Amiracle]

I disliked when WoW introduced cross-server anything.

 

Why? Because it took away your server identity. I was fairly known (read: infamous) on my server, and I had a lot of friends on both sides that I made because I saw them a lot in PvP.

 

When cross-server groups started, it no longer mattered who was on your server. You didn't need to interact with them.

 

I personally think Bioware just needs to merge some low pop servers to try and help fill up the worlds more.

 

 

I remember going to the server forums and reading all the forum pvp between individuals and guilds. I loved being part of the drama and going back and forth pvping in game.

 

But as soon as pvp went outside the server the forums dried up. Because there was very little chance you would see the same opponents ever again.

 

It basicly devolved into a gear grind where the only talk is the random trash talk from someone you don't know and never fought against.

[DeaconX]

You may be in luck... GW2 says they are doing away with the MMO trinity. However, that's a ways off. Until then, enjoy SWTOR!

 

As is The Secret World.

 

At least, you're able to switch out your abilities on the fly, so you could in theory decide to take a bunch of healing, tanking or dps abilities and thus be committed to a role. But you're never stuck in a role - you mix and match abilities as you see fit.

[Chanamel]

As is The Secret World.

 

At least, you're able to switch out your abilities on the fly, so you could in theory decide to take a bunch of healing, tanking or dps abilities and thus be committed to a role. But you're never stuck in a role - you mix and match abilities as you see fit.

 

You're also strongly limited in the number of abilities you can use at any given time and subsequent to having an important aspect (ability choice) handicaped you risk less dynamic gameplay.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Chanamel

[Tokeee]

The tank, healer, DPS mindset for grouping. This doesn't work in the long run. You will force certain players to play a healer or tank when they really just want to

 

Every successful, long running MMO ever made would like to have a word with you.

[biere]

1. dual spec and 2. cross server. 1. they can do both tank/dps, heal/dps and 2. means lots of them. a lot more.

 

they care about community. but in the end, every single one cares about gear, looks, stats. and they want it.

 

 

doesnt answer my question...The cross server and dual spec didnt solve the shortage of tank and healers in the other game we all know so well. If peoples dont want to well they dont.