MMO's (In general) biggest flaw...(Tank, healer, DPS)

[Bezit]

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/healing-death/

 

If you scroll down to just under the comic strip you will learn more than you are ready to know about GW2. It is the new generation of MMOs, be prepared my friends, be prepared.

[Axxar]

Wasn't SWTOR even supposed to abolish the trinity? I like that the roles aren't quite as pronounced as in some other mmos, but they are definitely still there.

Nope, it was very clearly designed as a trinity-based game, even though some posters here tried to convince themselves it wasn't.

[Dranzen]

One problem is dungeon design. Most dungeons are linear and require all party members for every encounter. This constitutes the necessity of someone to soak damage and another to heal. Most all dungeons have this singular design.

 

Linear dungeon design is both an old and new idea. On the most part, MMOs have been linear for quite sometime, but that may be an issue with the player base. For as long as MMOs attempt to appeal to the largest group of players, there will always be adjustments to make a game more accessible for the masses

 

World of Warcraft shipped with a variety of non-linear dungeons, which I loved back in Vanilla, but as time wore on, a percentage of the MMO community complained. Casual players wanted shorter, less confusing dungeons so they could get their fat loot. But this trend may be changing, Rift recently put out a massive dungeon on the Isle of Ember that is non-linear, but I doubt it.

[biere]

IF peoples are not interested in healing or tanking what a dungeon finder is gonna change to that mindset?

[Esproc]

The tank, healer, DPS mindset for grouping. This doesn't work in the long run. You will force certain players to play a healer or tank when they really just want to DPS.

 

The ONLY MMO that I have seen that makes this work is World of Warcraft. Don't flame cause I said WoW, I have played just about every single MMO for the past 14 years.

 

.

 

And just how have they done that?

There are three categories, Tank/Protection, DPS, Heals.

I never saw a healer or dps tank, a tank or dps heal any real raid content.

[kmontyw]

The problem is that combat naturally falls into those three roles. It's a function of the combat dynamic itself, not the game design. Those roles arose naturally out of the gameplay (EverQuest was the first to fully create the paradigm, though it drew upon games like UO and Merdian 59, and the entire history of pen and paper role playing). Game designs have simply facilitated what players naturally wanted to do, and what made for compelling gameplay.

 

If you don't believe me, try coming up with a different scheme. I have, in a professional capacity, and it simply doesn't work. Or better still, study real life combat situations and the history of war. The only real alternative is to have a FPS style environment where everyone has the same loadout and it's an action based thing. But that's a different style and genre of game altogether, though even there you will find players falling naturally into attack/support roles.

 

The real issue in my opinion is not the "holy trinity" of gameplay, it's class design, and class separation. Class separation and player roles are good things, not bad things. The thing is to design classes to empower these roles in a meaningful and fun way, not confuse them and try to create Frankenstein classes that attempt to give all players all things.

Edited January 5, 2012 by kmontyw

[krisslanza]

Nope, it was very clearly designed as a trinity-based game, even though some posters here tried to convince themselves it wasn't.

 

Somewhat yes and somewhat no. On one hand, while the game still uses the "Holy Trinity", it also doesn't restrict you at all with it.

 

A healing spec can do content just as well as DPS spec, and same for tank. You are not at some massive disadvantage in solo play if you spec for healing or tanking. You have the companion for a reason.

 

Even a DPS spec will struggle to solo without the companion.

[Mentoza]

Personaly i dont mind some kind of randoms LFG not that i would use them,

but i would be pissed if i can only play dps cause i hate it and find boring as hell

and i cant think of playing anything else than healing.

So dont take away a role from someone who loves it because "everyone" wants

to dps, i beg to differ

[Yfelsung]

I prefer the holy trinity.

 

So far the alternative has always devolved into a DPS race.

 

I watched a video of a GW2 fight against some sort of rotting/swamp dragon and it was just a DPS race while trying to dodge really telegraphed abilities.

 

Just looked incredibly uncoordinated and boring to me.

 

Looked a lot like a single player action game boss fight... and, well, I play MMOs for something different.

[Rhinoplat]

The tank, healer, DPS mindset for grouping. This doesn't work in the long run. You will force certain players to play a healer or tank when they really just want to DPS.

 

The ONLY MMO that I have seen that makes this work is World of Warcraft. Don't flame cause I said WoW, I have played just about every single MMO for the past 14 years.

 

Keywords: Cross server dungeon finder

 

 

Bioware said that they don't want dungeon queues (even per server) because they want the community to interact. Well Bioware, what happens in a few months when there barely is a community and this "cross server queue" is still demanded. You are in the same boat as you are now except minus a ton of players.

 

The amount of players who enjoy playing a DPS class outweighs the amount of tanks and healers. It makes no sense for games to expect every group to have a role not many people want to play. You need to consider the PSYCHOLOGICAL aspect. There might be 5 tanks on, but maybe all of them ONLY group with friends/guildmates. Thats perfectly fine, but what about that large chunk of playerbase that is a solo player or plays with a few friends who happen to be all DPS.

 

The entire mechanic of tank, healer, DPS makes no logical sense except for a timesink. Let's wait 2 hours to do a 1 hour dungeon.... That's 3 hours and that is assuming you complete it. Risk vs. reward.... Why waste 3 hours? I'll honestly play a different game.

 

Tank, Healer, DPS come from Pen and Paper games - where you have what I like to call a meat shield, healer & damage. I like having classes and I don't think that classes are the problem here. If BioWare changed one thing I would ask them to change how they script/code their raids so that Tanks are not needed.

 

Dedicated Healers and off-healers are always going to be needed. So by adjusting the coded content to allow for a wider range of class setups you allow us to break the traditional 3. I am not advocating that raids be made easier, just that the mechanics known as tanking are changed.

 

EvE has 3 forms of tanking (4 if you are really a man): Armor, Shield, Speed (Hull for the men in the group). Each of those tanking techniques requires a unique setup and mentality to play. But in SWTOR we basically see 1 type of tanking: collect agro while the healer heals me.

 

I don't follow you on your timesink logic, any character is going to be a time sink, and classes just reflect the real life aspect of everyone not having the same skill sets; sure you have athletes that will generally be good at anything they try, but even Jordan wasn't spectacular at baseball.

 

If this is a cry for x-server queues then just stop. That's the last thing we need for the game to be successful.

[elvinu]

IF peoples are not interested in healing or tanking what a dungeon finder is gonna change to that mindset?

 

1. dual spec and 2. cross server. 1. they can do both tank/dps, heal/dps and 2. means lots of them. a lot more.

 

they care about community. but in the end, every single one cares about gear, looks, stats. and they want it.

[Zedakah]

Linear dungeon design is both an old and new idea. On the most part, MMOs have been linear for quite sometime, but that may be an issue with the player base. For as long as MMOs attempt to appeal to the largest group of players, there will always be adjustments to make a game more accessible for the masses

 

World of Warcraft shipped with a variety of non-linear dungeons, which I loved back in Vanilla, but as time wore on, a percentage of the MMO community complained. Casual players wanted shorter, less confusing dungeons so they could get their fat loot. But this trend may be changing, Rift recently put out a massive dungeon on the Isle of Ember that is non-linear, but I doubt it.

 

 

 

I remember a few of the non-linear WoW classic dungeons, like Mara, Wailing Caverns, Sunken Temple, etc... but this is not what I'm talking about when I say linear.

 

I probably should have clarified a bit more, but I am talking about a dungeon where you must split the group up and each go separate ways or pair up and go a different way. This, by its nature, would not be a linear design, but also promotes teamwork from afar.

 

For example, here's an example I am making up off the top of my head of a possible encounter.

 

You go into a room and there is an npc you must protect while waves of mobs come out. Two people must leave and shut down the doors to prevent mobs from coming, while two other people must stay and protect the npc.

 

In this scenario any class makeup can work. You can have a gunslinger and vanguard/commando protecting the npc in the room while two jedi race through the corridors, tearing through mobs. Alternatively, a dps/healer can protect the npc and even heal the npc when needed. The longer 2 people take to deactivate the mob doors, the faster the mobs appear, so there would be a sense of urgency and teamwork. You could have 3 people race to the door controls while one tries to take out the mobs. There are just a lot more possibilities on how to do an encounter when you eliminate the trinity aspect.

 

Any combination can work and the replay value would be greater, because you can mix-up who does what. This is just one example of how a split dungeon. I do not think all flashpoints should be like this, but I do think there should be a few flashpoints that do not require a tank/healer.

[qqemokitty]

A game where I don't get to be a dedicated healer is a game I don't want to play.

 

Where is the team work if everyone is DPS?

[Cameirus]

You may be in luck... GW2 says they are doing away with the MMO trinity. However, that's a ways off. Until then, enjoy SWTOR!

 

not as far as people think, its in closed beta now.

 

Cant wait.

[ihateyouall]

I believe the game you are looking for is Guild Wars 2

[FinalEpik]

I don't get how doing away with the "holy trinity" will work. Is the assumption that each player is responsible for themselves then? From Guild Wars 2 info, that's what it seems like, if you die, it's cause you didn't dodge properly or heal yourself, etc.

 

This leads me to believe no content is really "group" content. As long as you can dodge the mob's attacks and balance your energy (or whatever it will be) you could last indefinitely against any monster no matter the difficulty. So 2 players defeating boss vs. 5 people defeating boss, the only difference will be amount of time it takes to take him down.

 

How will they make it so a person can't solo uberboss? Enrage timer, or making players unable to last indefinitely (energy slowly depletes and you can't sustain long term fights). Or maybe just having every uberboss encounter have multiple mobs where there is no way a person can dodge each of their attacks.

 

How will mob aggro work? Will the monster just randomly hit people or will he focus on the person doing the most damage/healing? If so, then really only 1 person in a group needs to have the skills to dodge most attacks, the rest can lolfaceroll. If it's random, then we have to assume there will be no "smart" mobs as they'll just be going "dur, I attack you now, ok now it's your turn". Will there even be "aggro" or will everyone involved in each mob have to dodge everything.

 

I'm sure I'm missing something that clears this all up. I'm just trying to figure out how they can craft a whole gaming experience around this...

[Malastare]

As someone who never drank the WoW/EQ koolaid, the solution seems pretty simple to me:

 

Remove aggro management. Without it, the Trinity falls apart.

 

I know the concept comes from all the way back in Diablo II days (or earlier), but I found it almost as hokey and stupid then. Monsters should be attacking whoever is hurting them the most... or whoever is weakest, depending on your AI. Adding a game mechanic to gather all attacks on a single person while other rain in huge damage is.... just stupid in my opinion. People complain about lack of appearance customization breaking immersion... but are fine with tanking.... I just don't get it.

 

I can already hear the cries: "But all-DPS is boring!"

 

Yes, to a degree, perhaps. But to suggest that the only solution is to slip back into the Holy Trinity seems like the complaint of an addict who can no longer see any other path. Take a look at other multiplayer games. Why isn't there a Tank in Team Fortress 2? ("But the Heavy--" ... isn't a tank, he's the king of DPS) That is a game of nine classes, and aside from the Medic, the rest would all be classified as DPS (or maybe DPS/support).

 

How is that possible? It must devolve into boredom with everyone just out-DPSing each other until they die!

 

Yes. That's sort of the point, to do enough damage to kill your opponents before they do the same to you.

 

So how do you set up a game without the Trinity? SWTOR has part of the solution: give everyone the tools they need to survive alone. Not thrive, just survive. The other half is complementary specialties. They're trying to do that, but they didn't seem to be able to yank themselves away from the Holy Trinity, so we're sort of stuck. Games like TF2 don't have issues with DPS teams because of the wild variations in specialties. If you have no variation in your team members, you'll be unstoppable at some things and curb-stomped when faced with other things.

 

I see no reason why a similar system cannot work in MMOs.

 

The problem, as I see it, is you -- that is: MMO players. They are so anchored to the Holy Trinity that they don't even seem to be able to see any other way. Some people don't even want to see it another way. The Holy Trinity means you only need to think of playing three different ways. Using complementary specialties means you may need to think of how to play in a dozen situations... or you might even have to change how you think based on who you're playing with.

 

For me: Holy Trinity == Boring.

[Cameirus]

A game where I don't get to be a dedicated healer is a game I don't want to play.

 

Where is the team work if everyone is DPS?

 

you have support in GW:2

 

So you can put heals down if you want to choose them, but people can heal themselves so they have to take responsibility for themselves more.

 

You can buff, heal, and debuff the enemy. you can combo moves together, and with team mates to create combos more powerful than individual moves. thats interesting teamwork.

 

Look at this and see what the known skills do:

GW:2 Skill Tool

[Varlak]

you know guys not every like to DPS and usualy game with group cap of 6 player don,t have problem with tank or healer.

 

Group of 5 or less usualy struggle with too many DPS

[Yfelsung]

I find people who wave the GW2 flag don't seem to comprehend the concept that some of us like being dedicated tanks and healers.

 

But, I see GW2 existence as positive. It will attract those who hate the holy trinity, who are usually DPSers, so it will mean the other MMOs will have a better balance.

 

I'm a life long tank. I love aggro management, the whole 9 yards.

 

Unfortunately, GW2 doesn't have anything for me.

[MikeMonger]

Well making everyone the same is a potential solution.

 

It's a solution which completely and totally destroys the concept of things like classes. It turns the game into a generic mosh where everybody looks the same, everybody wants the same gear, and nobody is distinctive.

 

Would you pay $15 a month to play checkers?

[Angof]

On my server tanks and healers look for DPS sometimes.

 

Seriously most people seem to do dungeons/ops in guild so far. I like the way the system is currently too and wouldn't want it to change. Being a tank I met quite a few people. I even had a dedicated healer for my heroics and flashpoints while leveling.

 

Sadly their guild went Empire. No more pocket healer for me

[kmontyw]

As someone who never drank the WoW/EQ koolaid, the solution seems pretty simple to me:

 

Remove aggro management. Without it, the Trinity falls apart.

 

I know the concept comes from all the way back in Diablo II days (or earlier), but I found it almost as hokey and stupid then. Monsters should be attacking whoever is hurting them the most... or whoever is weakest, depending on your AI. Adding a game mechanic to gather all attacks on a single person while other rain in huge damage is.... just stupid in my opinion. People complain about lack of appearance customization breaking immersion... but are fine with tanking.... I just don't get it.

 

I can already hear the cries: "But all-DPS is boring!"

 

Yes, to a degree, perhaps. But to suggest that the only solution is to slip back into the Holy Trinity seems like the complaint of an addict who can no longer see any other path. Take a look at other multiplayer games. Why isn't there a Tank in Team Fortress 2? ("But the Heavy--" ... isn't a tank, he's the king of DPS) That is a game of nine classes, and aside from the Medic, the rest would all be classified as DPS (or maybe DPS/support).

 

How is that possible? It must devolve into boredom with everyone just out-DPSing each other until they die!

 

Yes. That's sort of the point, to do enough damage to kill your opponents before they do the same to you.

 

So how do you set up a game without the Trinity? SWTOR has part of the solution: give everyone the tools they need to survive alone. Not thrive, just survive. The other half is complementary specialties. They're trying to do that, but they didn't seem to be able to yank themselves away from the Holy Trinity, so we're sort of stuck. Games like TF2 don't have issues with DPS teams because of the wild variations in specialties. If you have no variation in your team members, you'll be unstoppable at some things and curb-stomped when faced with other things.

 

I see no reason why a similar system cannot work in MMOs.

 

The problem, as I see it, is you -- that is: MMO players. They are so anchored to the Holy Trinity that they don't even seem to be able to see any other way. Some people don't even want to see it another way. The Holy Trinity means you only need to think of playing three different ways. Using complementary specialties means you may need to think of how to play in a dozen situations... or you might even have to change how you think based on who you're playing with.

 

For me: Holy Trinity == Boring.

 

No offense, but you haven't thought this through. The holy trinity dynamic arose OUT of MMO gameplay, not the other way around. If you remove aggro management, you have Diablo. But even then there is aggro management - whoever is doing the most damage, or is the bigger threat, or is closest etc. There is no such thing as a game without aggro rules in this context, and players will always find a way to "manage" them. In the end building the rules into the gameplay makes for really fun and enduring gameplay. Yes, it's a certain style of game, but it works.

 

There are games attempting to do what you are saying. They are different experiences, and lack the structure and particular type of fun and satisfaction that the cooperative element of MMOs currently bring. In the end you can't have it both ways. You either create class distinction, and clear combat roles, or you give everyone the ability to do everything in slightly different ways. One is a deeply cooperative sytem, the other is less so. They end up being very different game experiences.

[Rhinoplat]

Players nowadays want convenience. It is not convenient to have to search for hours in LFG for a healer or tank.

 

That died a long time ago... Even Everquest has adopted a dungeon finder. RIFT adopted a dungeon finder.

 

Some didn't join that "bandwagon", but honestly, this new automated dungeon finder is the way to go. And cross server, so all players are connected somehow. If that is not interacting with a broader community, I don't know what is.

 

Let's think about it... Connected to 1 server spamming a dead LFG channel - OR - being linked up with ALL servers and meeting new people everyday via the dungeon finder. Heck, this game could even offer a quest finder and teleport people into there quest instance. But that is asking too much, literally.

 

This is something I don't like. I don't want to interact with everyone on every other server. I want to know the other guilds/players on my server. This is yet another reason that BioWare needs to build in great guild utility tools so that the game becomes guild based and not solo player based.

 

Dungeon finders are the wrong way to go.

[Chanamel]

I like the trinity system and thus am not opposed to it continuing.

 

The only "solution" I can see to a trinity system would be in practice similar to how everyone has a decent amount of CC these days: everyone has strong tank/healer/DPS capabilities.

 

So how do you avoid it being efficient for some people to gear towards, say, healing and only heal even in a system of homogenization? Powerful tank and healing abilities would have to come on intermediate and long-term cooldowns so as to make it effectively impossible to safely specialize and maintain one role.

 

What it would require is aggro swapping abilities for everyone (both taunts and threat dumps); periodic strong damage absorption and/or mitigation, and/or kiting abilities; comparible DPS output for everyone; and, periodic strong heals for everyone that are not limited to their own character.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Chanamel