Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Tiron_Raptor]

I see what you mean, but it isn't just animations that are delayed or off its the abilities themselves. Case in point the Smuggler Grenade, the ability effect/damage, everything was off... including animation.

 

The effect/damage went off about 1 second after the ability was activated: approximately the same amount of time it took the grenade animation to complete (including flight time!) once it started.

 

Meaning the damage and effect both popped up on the UI at almost the exact same time the grenade would've hit the target had the animation gone off the instant the button was pushed.

 

Additionally, the target was frozen in place even before it was hit by the grenade, implying that the full CC effect was applied starting at the same time it would've been if the grenade anim had started instantly.

 

In Short: The UI reflected exactly what would've happened if you had it the way you wanted it.

[Xcore]

The effect/damage went off about 1 second after the ability was activated: approximately the same amount of time it took the grenade animation to complete (including flight time!) once it started.

 

Meaning the damage and effect both popped up on the UI at almost the exact same time the grenade would've hit the target had the animation gone off the instant the button was pushed.

 

Additionally, the target was frozen in place even before it was hit by the grenade, implying that the full CC effect was applied starting at the same time it would've been if the grenade anim had started instantly.

 

In Short: The UI reflected exactly what would've happened if you had it the way you wanted it.

 

What are you talking about? the grenade has no CC effect, only a knockback... the target didn't get knocked back. Also, what I'm saying is, the delay is the fact that the player was not able to execute the grenade ability at all, until the blaster bolts animation finished.

 

There was a .5+ sec delay between the cast bar of previous ability and GCD concluding and the next ability triggering its effect/animation whatever you want to call it. The ability itself was delayed... all aspects of it.

[Terra_Flare]

Possibly stated already but here's what I've experienced regarding this issue on my Sith Warrior:

 

Animations going off without the effect taking place, Ravage is very prone to this as a lot of time I'm just spinning like a dork without anything happening.

Saber ward makes it virtually impossible to attack for the first 2 seconds as the deflect animations always overlap whatever I pressed.

When getting knocked back by some mob whilst an animation is underway my skill goes on cooldown without its effect taking place, this makes no sense being an instant cast and all.

If I happen to doublepress something most of the times the animation will start over costing me quite a bit of time which is crucial in PvP environment. This may have to do with my ping (although its around 20 usually) but it shouldn't really start over on a second keypress.(skill queueing is set to 0)

[Tiron_Raptor]

What are you talking about? the grenade has no CC effect, only a knockback... the target didn't get knocked back. Also, what I'm saying is, the delay is the fact that the player was not able to execute the grenade ability at all, until the blaster bolts animation finished.

 

There was a .5+ sec delay between the cast bar of previous ability and GCD concluding and the next ability triggering its effect/animation whatever you want to call it. The ability itself was delayed... all aspects of it.

 

The knockback IS a CC: the target is disabled for a semi-predictable period of time: the time it's flying through the air, laying on the ground, and then getting back up it can't do anything. The only unpredictable element comes from the target possibly having to move back into the position it was blown out of before it can do anything.

 

And honestly it was more like a 0.2 second delay at max: whoever's controlling the smuggler was spam-clicking the grenade and it went off on only his second click after the GCD finished. It's actually very difficult to get the video to stop on a frame between the second and third click, because there's very little delay between them.

 

And because of the fact that the damage and debuff were applied at almost the same time the animation would've finished had it started instantly after the button-press was accepted AND basically simultaneous with when the animation actually started, it's actually impossible to say which of those two events is responsible for it being applied at that time.

 

You'd need a test where the two different times involved didn't line up in order to be able to determine if it was triggered by the animation (and thus delayed by the initial animation as you claim), or if it simply was applied when it would've been normally.

 

Additionally: the delay in activating the ability isn't caused by the charged burst animation: the charged burst animation is ALSO delayed by exactly the same amount of time.

[Taeldian]

Yet another way to see delays:

 

Use Hidden Strike with the Jarring Strike talent (Operative opener with a talent to make it stun) on an NPC. The NPC will turn around before the stun goes off.

 

Charge a mob which opens with an instant knockback while playing a warrior/knight with the charge stun talent. You'll get hit by the knockback before the stun hits.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Taeldian

[Tiron_Raptor]

Yet another way to see delays:

 

Use Hidden Strike with the Jarring Strike talent on an NPC. The NPC will turn around before the stun goes off.

 

Charge a mob which opens with an instant knockback while playing a warrior/knight with the charge stun talent. You'll get hit by the knockback before the stun hits.

 

Now THAT...is an entirely different thing than just an animation going off a bit late. That's stuff not going off in the proper order on the server. Somehow.

 

That needs fixed.

[Kerkat]

I'm glad there was a company update and they are trying to fix this problem.

 

As far as animations go, I don't care about them. Not when my healer is in the middle of a flashpoint/heroic, the only thing I'm concentrating on is health bars and where the damage I'm taking is coming from.

 

Static Shield is not instant. I have to wait until my character waves her arms around. In solo play, I can live with it but just barely. But in the midst of healing, I don't need to have my character wave her arms just so the tank can get his/her shield. Priorities BW! The character is supposed to be magical, she doesn't need to throw her arms in the air every time.

 

Its little delays like that, that build up into a feeling that the character is moving through molasses.

[BobTheTeepo]

Uh, guys... http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=141027

 

Complaining about something that has been acknowledged and is being fixed as we speak is not really constructive. But do whatever you want, just saying it's not helping anything.

[Taeldian]

I'm convinced that the problem is that every ability waits to apply its effects until the animation does its thing. Charge animation goes, you get in combat, effect hits after the NPC has a chance to respond. The fact that animations take a moment to start means everything gets delayed.

 

Or something.

 

edit:

You hit charge

you get put into combat

the mob is also in combat, which means it responds

your stun goes off once the animation gets to the appropriate point.

 

This isn't the server getting confused. This is consistently the order things happen in.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Taeldian

[genesiser]

I don't like it when I start a fight with full auto with my trooper.

 

Here's what happens when I do that. The cast bar for the channeled spell starts, the enemy aggros me even though I haven't hit the guy at all yet, my trooper for the first 1.5 seconds gets in a stance and gets her gun ready, the enemy shoots me (again, before I even hit the target), I get hit with push back on my spell, my 3 hit move only hits twice. Even on week mobs that happens which is lame because that move stuns them for the duration when they are getting hit. Unfortunately it takes 1.5 secs of the 3 sec channel to actually start hitting it and somehow the enemies have psychic ability and sense I'm about to shoot them so they can interrupt my move a bit.

 

Ya, I don't like that too much.

[Xcore]

The knockback IS a CC: the target is disabled for a semi-predictable period of time: the time it's flying through the air, laying on the ground, and then getting back up it can't do anything. The only unpredictable element comes from the target possibly having to move back into the position it was blown out of before it can do anything.

 

And honestly it was more like a 0.2 second delay at max: whoever's controlling the smuggler was spam-clicking the grenade and it went off on only his second click after the GCD finished. It's actually very difficult to get the video to stop on a frame between the second and third click, because there's very little delay between them.

 

And because of the fact that the damage and debuff were applied at almost the same time the animation would've finished had it started instantly after the button-press was accepted AND basically simultaneous with when the animation actually started, it's actually impossible to say which of those two events is responsible for it being applied at that time.

 

You'd need a test where the two different times involved didn't line up in order to be able to determine if it was triggered by the animation (and thus delayed by the initial animation as you claim), or if it simply was applied when it would've been normally.

 

Additionally: the delay in activating the ability isn't caused by the charged burst animation: the charged burst animation is ALSO delayed by exactly the same amount of time.

 

0.2 delay is un-acceptable, almost the same time is un-acceptable... etc. Must be perfect, must be 100% sync'd, must be 100% instant (if its supposed to be) etc.

 

Otherwise the game will always feel "sluggish" and "Clunky" and never fulfill its potential in subscribers. Absolute, 100%, precision smooth gameplay is greater than any and every other aspect in a "combat" oriented game.

[Xcore]

Now THAT...is an entirely different thing than just an animation going off a bit late. That's stuff not going off in the proper order on the server. Somehow.

 

That needs fixed.

 

Engine Code is my fear...

[Tiron_Raptor]

I'm convinced that the problem is that every ability waits to apply its effects until the animation does its thing. Charge animation goes, you get in combat, effect hits after the NPC has a chance to respond. The fact that animations take a moment to start means everything gets delayed.

 

Or something.

 

The only problem with that being that in order for it to have an effect like that, it has to be delayed on the SERVER. Since everything's handled by the server, the mob aggroing on you has to be happening on the server as well. So the fact that the ability has been activated has been sent to the server: the mob wouldn't aggro from the activation if it hadn't been.

 

I can think of four ways this could happen, the second of which lines up with the way the grenade video plays out:

 

1.) The server's waiting on a message from the client about the anim before it activates the ability (would EXPONENTIALLY increase the amount of inbound bandwidth bioware has to pay for, because of the excess, unnecessary messages!)

2.) the server's running an additional timer the same, known length as the anim before it applies the effects.

3.) The server's somehow doing things out of order, as if the aggro and subsequent attack are overriding the stun happening

4.) The client is sending things to the server out of order

 

3 and 4 could be bugs, but 1 and 2 would be deliberate design decisions...really really poor ones.

 

0.2 delay is un-acceptable, almost the same time is un-acceptable... etc. Must be perfect, must be 100% sync'd, must be 100% instant (if its supposed to be) etc.

 

Otherwise the game will always feel "sluggish" and "Clunky" and never fulfill its potential in subscribers. Absolute, 100%, precision smooth gameplay is greater than any and every other aspect in a "combat" oriented game.

 

The ability going off the first time it's hit with no delay I agree with you about. The animation going off instantly MUCH less so. The damage and effects are ALWAYS going to have a delay just a bit higher than your latency (because of processing time) no matter how it's set up.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Tiron_Raptor

[Xcore]

Uh, guys... http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=141027

 

Complaining about something that has been acknowledged and is being fixed as we speak is not really constructive. But do whatever you want, just saying it's not helping anything.

 

You're the same little dude who came into Thread 1 saying "its all fine, there are no issues?" Are you the same guy who says "don't mash buttons, its not WoW, go back to WoW"? Are you the same guy who says "Set to 0.0, fixes everything"? Are you the same guy who says, "nothing is being fixed, they only said they're investigating"?

 

Are you that guy?

 

 

Get out...

[Xcore]

The only problem with that being that in order for it to have an effect like that, it has to be delayed on the SERVER. Since everything's handled by the server, the mob aggroing on you has to be happening on the server as well. So the fact that the ability has been activated has been sent to the server: the mob wouldn't aggro from the activation if it hadn't been.

 

I can think of four ways this could happen, the second of which lines up with the way the grenade video plays out:

 

1.) The server's waiting on a message from the client about the anim before it activates the ability (would EXPONENTIALLY increase the amount of inbound bandwidth bioware has to pay for, because of the excess, unnecessary messages!)

2.) the server's running an additional timer the same, known length as the anim before it applies the effects.

3.) The server's somehow doing things out of order, as if the aggro and subsequent attack are overriding the stun happening

4.) The client is sending things to the server out of order

 

3 and 4 could be bugs, but 1 and 2 would be deliberate design decisions...really really poor ones.

 

 

 

The ability going off the first time it's hit with no delay I agree with you about. The animation going off instantly MUCH less so. The damage and effects are ALWAYS going to have a delay just a bit higher than your latency (because of processing time) no matter how it's set up.

 

Until Bioware confirms any of these details or their way of Client/Server Communications all of the above is pure speculation, this entire thread has turned into speculation. Which at least is evolution in the right direction.

 

Either way, if this is the case then Client/Server Sync sucks, needs to be re-adjusted to delay the Client just like in WoW...

[Taeldian]

The only problem with that being that in order for it to have an effect like that, it has to be delayed on the SERVER. Since everything's handled by the server, the mob aggroing on you has to be happening on the server as well. So the fact that the ability has been activated has been sent to the server: the mob wouldn't aggro from the activation if it hadn't been.

 

I can think of four ways this could happen, the second of which lines up with the way the grenade video plays out:

 

1.) The server's waiting on a message from the client about the anim before it activates the ability (would EXPONENTIALLY increase the amount of inbound bandwidth bioware has to pay for, because of the excess, unnecessary messages!)

2.) the server's running an additional timer the same, known length as the anim before it applies the effects.

3.) The server's somehow doing things out of order, as if the aggro and subsequent attack are overriding the stun happening

4.) The client is sending things to the server out of order

 

3 and 4 could be bugs, but 1 and 2 would be deliberate design decisions...really really poor ones.

 

from an edit on my above post:

 

You hit charge

you get put into combat

the mob is also in combat, which means it responds

your stun goes off once the animation gets to the appropriate point.

 

This is what I believe is going on, and it'll happen consistently until:

A) They untie an ability's effects from its animation

B) NPCs don't get into combat until they're hit by the effect

 

Either of these solutions will fix it, but I'm willing to bet option A would also fix many - if not all - of the other problems people are seeing.

[Xcore]

 

The ability going off the first time it's hit with no delay I agree with you about. The animation going off instantly MUCH less so. The damage and effects are ALWAYS going to have a delay just a bit higher than your latency (because of processing time) no matter how it's set up.

 

Client needs to be delayed as in WoW to simulate the responsiveness, the "instant" effect feeling.

[FellintoOblivion]

I get "pre-aggro" all the time when I open up on a mob with a long cast time spell.

 

It's pretty annoying and really bad programming.

[Xcore]

from an edit on my above post:

 

You hit charge

you get put into combat

the mob is also in combat, which means it responds

your stun goes off once the animation gets to the appropriate point.

 

This is what I believe is going on, and it'll happen consistently until:

A) They untie an ability's effects from its animation

B) NPCs don't get into combat until they're hit by the effect

 

Either of these solutions will fix it, but I'm willing to bet option A would also fix many - if not all - of the other problems people are seeing.

 

No, it will do nothing for the Cosmetic aspects, if you Untie the effect from the animation at some point in a continuous rotation you will get the effects so far ahead of the animation that its silly.

[Taeldian]

No, it will do nothing for the Cosmetic aspects, if you Untie the effect from the animation at some point in a continuous rotation you will get the effects so far ahead of the animation that its silly.

 

The animations would just clip. I'm more than ok with this.

[Tiron_Raptor]

Client needs to be delayed as in WoW to simulate the responsiveness, the "instant" effect feeling.

 

...Delay the client how exactly, since can't I think of how you could do that without introducing massive input delays.

 

The animations would just clip. I'm more than ok with this.

 

I'm not. I'm really, really not. I hate animation clip. It looks horrible.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Tiron_Raptor

[Taeldian]

...Delay the client how exactly, since can't I think of how you could do that without introducing massive input delays.

 

 

 

I'm not. I'm really, really not. I hate animation clip. It looks horrible.

 

Well not to be all doom-and-gloomy, but with the amount of potential impact this can have on people's enjoyment of the game, I honestly think it could be the difference between SWTOR becoming the WoW killer and SWTOR becoming a cautionary tale.

 

If they can find a way to fix it without clipping the animations, that's great. But I'm willing to bet that fix would take longer, which is a Bad Thing.

 

(disclaimer: I'm well aware that I don't know what's going on inside their studio. For all I know, my speculation about what's causing the problem is completely wrong and my solution is completely impractical. I'm comfortable speculating about it anyway.)

Edited January 7, 2012 by Taeldian

[Xcore]

...Delay the client how exactly, since can't I think of how you could do that without introducing massive input delays.

 

 

 

I'm not. I'm really, really not. I hate animation clip. It looks horrible.

 

The same way all clients are delayed in WoW, thus your frostbolt following you forever. Also Animation Clipping > Delay/Sluggish/Clunky Gameplay

 

Function > Appearance

[Tiron_Raptor]

The same way all clients are delayed in WoW, thus your frostbolt following you forever. Also Animation Clipping > Delay/Sluggish/Clunky Gameplay

 

Function > Appearance

 

Believe it or not, you CAN have both. Not having both is just the result of laziness.

 

And are we playing the same game? I seriously don't find it sluggish or clunky...

[Xcore]

Believe it or not, you CAN have both. Not having both is just the result of laziness.

 

And are we playing the same game? I seriously don't find it sluggish or clunky...

 

This entire thread is filled with people that are here for the sole reason of it feeling sluggish and clunky in contrast to WoW, if you at all read the OP, the entire point is that Rift/Warhammer etc etc were all undone by this very certain, unidentifiable "feeling" of "something is wrong, I can't put my finger on it... it just feels weird".

 

Thats how the the exodus happens, silently, snowballing... no-one knows why (especially devs).

 

 

Secondly, I wholeheartedly agree. if we can preserve nice animations AND pure precision/responsive combat... PERFECT! I love the animations so far in SW:TOR.

 

BUT

 

As soon as 1 single animation > gameplay function at all, its wrong. This is where the "disconnect" happens between Player and Avatar.

 

0.1 Delay in favor of Animation is un-acceptable...

 

if you can have pure performance and function AND preserve amazing looks, well WIN/WIN!

Edited January 7, 2012 by Xcore