Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Xcore]

you're still stuck on a game that came out 7 years ago. WoW has never been good and it's certainly not the be-all and end-all of MMOs.

 

swtor doesn't use auto attacks or animation clipping so stop blaming your problems on a design flaw. set your ability queue to 0.5 or fix your network issues.

 

You are the reason I am unable to express myself eloquent anymore. 5 threads of you can drive one insane... I don't belive you understand the issue discussed here at all...

 

On another note, Tirion_Raptor (cannot confirm name, on phone... apologies). I agree and I think I've/we've come go a good understanding. The most Important thing that this thread can accomplish (its original purpose) is to establish that there is a discernible problem.

 

Also, of course i knew he meant GCD when he said "quickslot recovery", just needed to poke a bit of fun at someone using terminology such as that to undermine this entire thread... my cynicism...

[Tiron_Raptor]

70 ms and having issues oh yea 0.5 is the defualt i toyed around with it and it didnt do anything so thanks for the useless post and this game does have design flaw paericularly with melee

 

Changing the window doesn't really seem to have any effect on the queue delay according to my testing: the only thing that did was hitting the ability earlier into the GCD. The later you hit it, the more it delays, almost as if there's some sort of minimum processing time on it or something.

 

You can get around it by not using the queue: hit the ability after it's off GCD and there's no delay from the queue, even with the queue still active.

 

My suggestions are this:

If you only click abilities once, as a general rule:

 

1.) Set queue to 1.0 and hit abilities as early as possible.

 

2.) Set queue to 0.25 and attempt to hit abilities at the end of the GCD: If you miss and hit it early, the queue catches it, and it's still faster than your reaction to missing will be even with the delay.

 

If you have a tendency to spam the button in an attempt to hit it as soon as it comes off GCD, set the queue to 0.0: since you can't activate the queue anymore, your first spammy click after the GCD ends will activate it. If you leave the queue on, your first click is probably going to be early and activate the queue, thus delaying the activation regardless of your spamming. This is why some people claim 0.0 helps: If you spam the button, it does(but I feel sorry for your keyboard). Otherwise it just makes it easier to miss entirely.

 

You are the reason I am unable to express myself eloquent anymore. 5 threads of you can drive one insane... I don't belive you understand the issue discussed here at all...

 

On another note, Tirion_Raptor (cannot confirm name, on phone... apologies). I agree and I think I've/we've come go a good understanding. The most Important thing that this thread can accomplish (its original purpose) is to establish that there is a discernible problem.

 

Also, of course i knew he meant GCD when he said "quickslot recovery", just needed to poke a bit of fun at someone using terminology such as that to undermine this entire thread... my cynicism...

 

Only one 'I', it's derived from LotR, same root word as in 'Minas Tirith'. Slightly screwed up elvish version of my RL name. Got it from http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/index.html , which I found YEARS ago. Actual was 'Tirno', I tried to do the alternate and missed badly (Should've been 'Tirnon', which sounds even dumber).

 

That was about 10 years ago...

 

Anyway yeah, part of the issue I had was that it's really hard to follow what issues are actually being complained about, because it really does come off like it's mostly just the fact that the animations are superficially delayed... which makes it harder to notice some of the much subtler combat malfunctions being discussed.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Tiron_Raptor

[supertouch]

Actually the ability queue induces a delay if used: it doesn't fire the ability at the exact end of the GCD but in fact waits for a fraction of a second after to activate the ability.

 

Network latency also doesn't have anything to do with abilities that are off the GCD failing to activate (even though they start animating!), apparently respecting the GCD.

 

It also can at most only partially explain the hitch on the end of castbar spells: such hitch is something that could, and should be, much more compensated for than it is if it's just latency. And the hitch should NOT be preventing new abilities from being activated in any case whatsoever!

 

And then there's at least one healing ability that simply breaks and stops doing anything if spammed...

 

i don't know what to say. i can tap keys furiously while using any ability and it never gets interrupted. i saw a few videos of people trying to demonstrate the game's ability delay and all they showed was the slight delay in floating text. only one showed true delay. someone was casting dark heal on himself and moving around a bit before the skill took effect.

 

people are probably experiencing a network issue that's hard to diagnose. i don't think it's a universal problem.

[Asnine]

Changing the window doesn't really seem to have any effect on the queue delay according to my testing: the only thing that did was hitting the ability earlier into the GCD. The later you hit it, the more it delays, almost as if there's some sort of minimum processing time on it or something.

 

You can get around it by not using the queue: hit the ability after it's off GCD and there's no delay from the queue, even with the queue still active.

 

My suggestions are this:

If you only click abilities once, as a general rule:

 

1.) Set queue to 1.0 and hit abilities as early as possible.

 

2.) Set queue to 0.25 and attempt to hit abilities at the end of the GCD: If you miss and hit it early, the queue catches it, and it's still faster than your reaction to missing will be even with the delay.

 

If you have a tendency to spam the button in an attempt to hit it as soon as it comes off GCD, set the queue to 0.0: since you can't activate the queue anymore, your first spammy click after the GCD ends will activate it. If you leave the queue on, your first click is probably going to be early and activate the queue, thus delaying the activation regardless of your spamming. This is why some people claim 0.0 helps: If you spam the button, it does(but I feel sorry for your keyboard). Otherwise it just makes it easier to miss entirely.

 

Does this fix that riposte / other animations hitching leading to no damage glitch?

[Asnine]

i don't know what to say. i can tap keys furiously while using any ability and it never gets interrupted. i saw a few videos of people trying to demonstrate the game's ability delay and all they showed was the slight delay in floating text. only one showed true delay. someone was casting dark heal on himself and moving around a bit before the skill took effect.

 

people are probably experiencing a network issue that's hard to diagnose. i don't think it's a universal problem.

 

 

For the last time. Look at the Riposte video.

[AlkalineKitten]

you're still stuck on a game that came out 7 years ago. WoW has never been good and it's certainly not the be-all and end-all of MMOs.

 

swtor doesn't use auto attacks or animation clipping so stop blaming your problems on a design flaw. set your ability queue to 0.5 or fix your network issues.

 

More like ToR's features and designs cater to an iteration of that game from five years ago.

[supertouch]

by the way, the "action bar" is called a "quickslot bar" in the game.

[AlkalineKitten]

i don't think it's a universal problem.

 

Agreed. That much is evidenced from every time this thread is reset.

 

Worth sorting out and discussing.

[lethal_ghost]

maul and assassinate seem to suffer badly from this.

[Asnine]

maul and assassinate seem to suffer badly from this.

 

Exactly. I only notice certain abilities for which this is the case. NOT EVERY ONE. But it is reproducable.

 

Clearly not a latency issue like this SuperTouch character is trying to pass it off as.

 

 

Oh, and the video showing Riposte failiing to go off, instead just leaving your character twitching (cycling through the beginning animation over and over again)

 

[Halacs]

You are the reason I am unable to express myself eloquent anymore. 5 threads of you can drive one insane... I don't belive you understand the issue discussed here at all...

 

On another note, Tirion_Raptor (cannot confirm name, on phone... apologies). I agree and I think I've/we've come go a good understanding. The most Important thing that this thread can accomplish (its original purpose) is to establish that there is a discernible problem.

 

Also, of course i knew he meant GCD when he said "quickslot recovery", just needed to poke a bit of fun at someone using terminology such as that to undermine this entire thread... my cynicism...

 

He's a troll or really stupid, just add him to your ignore.

 

It's what I did anyways.

[bossrozay]

I really do love this game. I have leveled most classes to 20ish, just to get a feel for what class I want to max out, but the ability delay is starting to REALLY bother me. I never played the Beta so I assumed at first that this was just server congestion or net code delay due to the launch capacity and server queues. "Fine", I thought. Still having fun.

 

For the first time today, the idea crept into my head that maybe I should stop my subscription. I couldn't believe it. I hate comparing this to WOW, but honestly, its the game I think about the most while I experience these issues. I uninstalled WOW the same day I installed this, and DAILY I think about re-downloading the 20GB WOW client just to see what it feels like.

 

Nevertheless, I know this has been acknowledged by BW/EA but I hardly think this is something they can easily fix otherwise they would. It's like asking every FPS developer why their guns dont shoot and control like Call of Duty.

[StevenStarkill]

So many of us are having the exact same network issues on the exact same abilities?

 

You haven't seen someone try to cast Riposte over and over and over and it just won't go off? You haven't seen videos where the GCD starts and yet the ability never goes off so you have to wait the entire GCD before casting a new ability effectively standing there picking your nose? We aren't all having the same exact network issues. We all WANT to love this game and play it for all its worth, we're not trying to nitpick at imaginary problems. The crux of the issue for all of us is this; there's a severe disconnect between what we are telling our character to do and what happens. It's frequent enough to take many of us out of the experience. It ruins the immersion. Even on a casual gaming level, forget pvp and hardcore raiding for a second, this is bad.

 

Granted, I'm quite certain that there are people out there that just don't see the problem or perhaps play a class that doesn't have long animations/abilities that misfire. This is great. Don't presume to tell all of us that we don't know what we are talking about simply because you are fortunate enough to not have a problem. You are telling people who have the same ISP they used for other MMOs that suddenly it must be their ISP.

[Tiron_Raptor]

i don't know what to say. i can tap keys furiously while using any ability and it never gets interrupted. i saw a few videos of people trying to demonstrate the game's ability delay and all they showed was the slight delay in floating text. only one showed true delay. someone was casting dark heal on himself and moving around a bit before the skill took effect.

 

people are probably experiencing a network issue that's hard to diagnose. i don't think it's a universal problem.

 

It's not about abilities getting interrupted: there's a few slight malfunctions in the combat system that are very hard to notice unless you watch very carefully, and a few major ones that are much easier to notice.

 

One of the big ones is that there appears to be a universal, if somewhat erratic, bug with non-GCD abilities: in

you'll notice that when he tries to fire Riposte, a non-GCD respecting instant attack somewhat similar to WoW's 'revenge' ability(in the 5th quickslot bound to 'R'), the ability fails to trigger despite showing ready. No focus is used, no damage is dealt, no cooldown activated. The animation starts each time he presses it, until it finally goes off almost simultaneously with the GCD finishing.

 

Then there's the ability action queue: it doesn't fire things off on time if you actually use it. It doesn't delay abilities hit after the GCD, only if you hit it before the GCD is finished, thus using the queue. It's a slight delay: a few hundreds of milliseconds at most. You have to look quite closely to see it.

 

Finally, abilities with castbars essentially 'hang' the client for a moment when the castbar ends: it looks like a similar effect to the client-server sync problem that causes you to get dismounted if you move too soon after mounting. Worse than the hitch itself is that it prevents another ability from being activated until it unhitches, regardless of cooldown status. Also relatively slight, and requires quite careful watching to spot. If you very carefully watch

you'll see that he gets a click in on the grenade AFTER the GCD finishes that doesn't activate the ability, and it activates instead on his third click, the SECOND one after the GCD, nearly simultaneous with the animation for the first, castbar based ability starting.

 

Once again. Are you denying that certain skills, if you hit another button before the GCD expires, will just cause the skill to cancel that animation and have you stuck doing the wind up animation over and over again?

 

Or, in the case of riposte, an off GCD skill not firing because you pressed a button more than once?

 

It doesn't seem related to pushing a button multiple times. The Off-GCD thing is a separate bug. The only time button spamming itself causes a delay is if you leave the action queue on and your first spam click activates it. This is why turning it off helps spammers get more responsiveness.

 

Does this fix that riposte / other animations hitching leading to no damage glitch?

 

No, that's an independent bug that seems to affect multiple off-GCD abilities, possibly all of them. It's somewhat erratic though, and on the riposte video looks like it's respecting the GCD despite the tooltip and icon claiming it doesn't, and even the client apparently thinking it should go off (which is why the animation starts).

 

i wasn't a fan of the queue system in swtor so i left it at default and everything works fine for me.

 

The queue system itself is one source of delay: It times ability activations inaccurately. If you haven't noticed it's just because you haven't looked closely enough to see it.

[Seraphiq]

Try playing a sith sorcerer, the delay is very apparent.

[Tinkersw]

apologies if this has been seen and noted previously.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=136757

 

Great post!!!!!

[Limecake]

Try playing a sith sorcerer, the delay is very apparent.

 

 

Actually I found my sith sorc is by far my MOST responsive character. I started playing an operative when I first started playing but from rolling in and out of cover and the several abilities that just seemed to hate me (I'm looking at you grenade) I could barely play my op and actually took about 3 days break from the game for lack of interest.

 

however my jedi sage/Sith Sorc are both much more fun to play and I actually get excited to play them. The Sith sorc being the most responsive since I can just shoot lightning at people instead of waiting for my jedi to pull a droid out of the ground.

 

Not saying they are perfect, just a lot nicer than my op.

[Forsbacka]

Actually I found my sith sorc is by far my MOST responsive character. I started playing an operative when I first started playing but from rolling in and out of cover and the several abilities that just seemed to hate me (I'm looking at you grenade) I could barely play my op and actually took about 3 days break from the game for lack of interest.

 

however my jedi sage/Sith Sorc are both much more fun to play and I actually get excited to play them. The Sith sorc being the most responsive since I can just shoot lightning at people instead of waiting for my jedi to pull a droid out of the ground.

 

Not saying they are perfect, just a lot nicer than my op.

 

I had same thing with my operative, dropped it since it had some many problems in combat and now playign sorcerer, its much better to play but it stil has its problems on certain abilitities.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Forsbacka

[HibashiraSakai]

I never understood his problem until last night.

 

My main is a Jedi Sage (Seer spec), absolutely no experience with this problem in PvE. No issue what so ever for the past 48 levels.

 

Last night I was fussing around with a new Bounty Hunter. Just the first few levels I was able to experience misfire, non-firing, not registering attacks, interrupts, etc.. The description of it being like I'm disconnected from my avatar is 100% accurate.

 

The thing that bugs me is that I've never had these problems with the Sage. Could it be that these issues are confined within several classes? Did we ever look at which specific classes are having these issues?

[Halacs]

I never understood his problem until last night.

 

My main is a Jedi Sage (Seer spec), absolutely no experience with this problem in PvE. No issue what so ever for the past 48 levels.

 

Last night I was fussing around with a new Bounty Hunter. Just the first few levels I was able to experience misfire, non-firing, not registering attacks, interrupts, etc.. The description of it being like I'm disconnected from my avatar is 100% accurate.

 

The thing that bugs me is that I've never had these problems with the Sage. Could it be that these issues are confined within several classes? Did we ever look at which specific classes are having these issues?

 

Been following these threads from the start and I do believe that all classes have chimed in but the degree of the problem does seem to vary.

 

One thing I know for sure is that all the people I play with are having the problem.

[Xcore]

I never understood his problem until last night.

 

My main is a Jedi Sage (Seer spec), absolutely no experience with this problem in PvE. No issue what so ever for the past 48 levels.

 

Last night I was fussing around with a new Bounty Hunter. Just the first few levels I was able to experience misfire, non-firing, not registering attacks, interrupts, etc.. The description of it being like I'm disconnected from my avatar is 100% accurate.

 

The thing that bugs me is that I've never had these problems with the Sage. Could it be that these issues are confined within several classes? Did we ever look at which specific classes are having these issues?

 

No, no offense but you simply haven't perceived it well enough. My fiancee plays a Sage as well, coming from competitive environments in WoW she says healing is hell in SW:TOR...

 

Try this, , its really simple to notice how unresponsive the whole system is:

 

Enter Warzone or Duel:

 

1) Get CCd

2) Use PvP Trinkets which is instant and does not trigger the GCD

3) Use your knockback ability

 

You will notice the "sluggish" feeling, the above moves should be chained In no more than .5 sec to 1... this is impossible.

 

Tirion_Raptor surmised the issues a few pages back.

 

Again, I urge you to be more critical in observation on your Sage as well, every single class suffers this issue and every single ability contributes to the overall feeling of disconnect. What is important to understand that due to several mechanics and technicalities, some abilities or rotations showcase it jarringly, some faintly and some, not at all.

 

Even abilities or rotations that do not display it at all suffer this. We're simply lucky that it may be masked far better.

[Hairless]

This problem is even worse for Snipers because of the cover mechanic...

Some abilities require that you be in cover. Well, even going into cover lags and trying to immediately cast an ability after going into cover.... makes me want to kill a ****in kitten.

[Xcore]

This problem is even worse for Snipers because of the cover mechanic...

Some abilities require that you be in cover. Well, even going into cover lags and trying to immediately cast an ability after going into cover.... makes me want to kill a ****in kitten.

 

That is logically correct because we rely on the (instant, no GCD trigger) cover ability for everything. So it simply stands out more... Perhaps I was drawn to make this thread through the extreme frustration of playing a Gunslinger?

 

I think this entire issue is most noticeable on chaining of instants and casted abilities in a rotation. The tighter the rotation, the more noticeable.

 

You have no idea how frustrating it is to run a tight rotation and then try to include the "Buff" that makes my next a ability a crit etc. It Interrupts the entire flow even though It is supposed to be Instant and not GCD triggering.

 

Never, ever did WoW have such issues, not even at launch.

[bossrozay]

That is logically correct because we rely on the (instant, no GCD trigger) cover ability for everything. So it simply stands out more... Perhaps I was drawn to make this thread through the extreme frustration of playing a Gunslinger?

 

I think this entire issue is most noticeable on chaining of instants and casted abilities in a rotation. The tighter the rotation, the more noticeable.

 

You have no idea how frustrating it is to run a tight rotation and then try to include the "Buff" that makes my next a ability a crit etc. It Interrupts the entire flow even though It is supposed to be Instant and not GCD triggering.

 

Never, ever did WoW have such issues, not even at launch.

 

OMG YES!

 

My very first character on launch day was a gunslinger. The ability delay makes that class the most frustrating to play. Using "Aimed Shot" is a *********** headache, any gunslinger knows this. Oh, and trying to cover in PVP is a joke.

[Kalase]

It has not happend to me or my brother. Maybe were just bad..... Or anyone else I know....