Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Rasstavad]

How can you post in a thread of which you haven't even read the OP? or seen any of the discussions before joining?

 

 

P.S.: Not going to lie, I stopped reading your actual posts... its very much repetition and I don't have the time...

 

He just likes to talk and argue. He makes these types of posts in every thread he is in - and he's in a lot of them. To be honest, I don't think he really plays the game.

[Tiron_Raptor]

He just likes to talk and argue. He makes these types of posts in every thread he is in - and he's in a lot of them. To be honest, I don't think he really plays the game.

 

I haven't been much lately, no. It'd be so much easier if people'd just start making sense.

[Noxxia]

There is no contradiction in any of my statements... I don't even disagree with your theory on Client/Server and general Server argument... all I say is that there is also a definite Animation > Player Input Priority as well as other contributing factors to overall feeling of Disconnect from your avatar.

 

To me, I like that animations take priority, it adds a sense of "i'm shooting my rifle, i can't throw a grenade at the same time" sort of sense to the game, BUT there are cases that contradict that where you can do two things at the virtual same time making Bioware's intentions confusing. It'll be interesting to see how this all turns out. I'm sure they'll fix it in some way other another.

[Oneiros_IV]

Originally Posted by Xcore

Sure I can accept that. However, in an unresponsive environment like this one cannot create tightly tuned encounters. Ultimately, once the story gets old, you're screwed.

 

This is my biggest concern

[Hairless]

In WoW responsiveness was so amazing that some of the best players could consistently interrupt 0.5 second casts. Doing something like that seems impossible atm in TOR.

[Xcore]

Because the OP's really, really long and in places rather hard to follow. Especially when it gets into the videos (with little indication of what they are, or are supposed to show), and the quotes from specific people(which are frankly uninteresting in concept, regardless of content).

 

As far as the videos go, I don't really like watching them in the first place, especially the ones where the guy talks for five minutes before he gets to whatever he's trying to demonstrate. If I can't see something fairly obvious fairly quickly, even after skipping around in the video a bit, I skip to the next one or just stop watching them entirely.

 

It's very much an amplified version of TLDR: If nobody but people who'd read the entire thing posted, this wouldn't be on its fifth thread, it'd've died out days ago.

 

P.S. I wouldn't keep repeating myself if it didn't seem like something wasn't getting through. Think I'm wrong about something? Give me something concrete, and I *will* change my tune.

 

I just think you're wrong in not understanding the whole concept of the problem behind the feeling of Avatar/Character Responsiveness and Ability Delay.

 

There is quite a bit more to it than the fact that Client and Server are not in sync.

 

My only point of contention is that you are not accounting for the fact that Animations are Prioritized over Player Input. It has nothing to do with the fact that an animation and ability effect are separate in technicality. Bioware's combat design does not allow (in many cases) for animation clipping and because it prioritizes animation execution before you can initiate a new ability (regardless of GCD status) it comes off as clunky.

 

Now, the fact that there is a "not so hidden" delay between the server recognizing a new command and the client executing/displaying it is only part of the problem.

 

Once again, the smuggler video shows it well enough. The player is completely unable to even trigger the ability/animation or effect of the Grenade Ability until "after" the animation of the blaster bolts has absolutely concluded... even though the Cast time on the blaster bold ability has long finished AND the GCD has concluded as well. So in that case we're looking at about a 1.5 sec delay.

 

1.5 sec delay before the command can be sent to the server etc. and yes completely besides the point is that the mob takes damage immediately instead of when the grenade hits it. The point is the ability itself is delayed by 1.5 seconds overall (roughly).

[Xcore]

In WoW responsiveness was so amazing that some of the best players could consistently interrupt 0.5 second casts. Doing something like that seems impossible atm in TOR.

 

Lets just say if Neilyo was playing SW:TOR he'd kill himself....

[Rasstavad]

In WoW responsiveness was so amazing that some of the best players could consistently interrupt 0.5 second casts. Doing something like that seems impossible atm in TOR.

 

Imagine trying to do something like tyring to sw:death a poly in this game. You couldn't... and it's the main reason I can't take this game or it's PvP seriously. With controls like they are now the skillcap is being pushed to the floor. This may be good for the average or bad player but it isn't good for the exceptional ones. There is something wrong with "character responsiveness" and frankly, I don't give a flying **** what the issue is. I just want it either fixed, or some indication from the developers that it CAN'T be fixed so I can move on.

[Oneiros_IV]

In WoW responsiveness was so amazing that some of the best players could consistently interrupt 0.5 second casts. Doing something like that seems impossible atm in TOR.

 

More so in competitive arena intricacies there're things like early-mid-late interrupts, usually you want late for "effect on cast's end" spells so a target spends extra split second doing nothing but casting spell that's gonna be interrupted effectively disabling him for some more time.

 

Or ~really~ early interrupt for channeled spells to reduce amount of ticks.

[Zeetofox]

Imagine trying to do something like tyring to sw:death a poly in this game. You couldn't... and it's the main reason I can't take this game or it's PvP seriously. With controls like they are now the skillcap is being pushed to the floor. This may be good for the average or bad player but it isn't good for the exceptional ones. There is something wrong with "character responsiveness" and frankly, I don't give a flying **** what the issue is. I just want it either fixed, or some indication from the developers that it CAN'T be fixed so I can move on.

 

They have already said they're working on it lmao, what do you want? Them to say the same thing everyday until its fixed just to keep you happy?

[StormDragonlord]

Imagine trying to do something like tyring to sw:death a poly in this game. You couldn't... and it's the main reason I can't take this game or it's PvP seriously. With controls like they are now the skillcap is being pushed to the floor. This may be good for the average or bad player but it isn't good for the exceptional ones. There is something wrong with "character responsiveness" and frankly, I don't give a flying **** what the issue is. I just want it either fixed, or some indication from the developers that it CAN'T be fixed so I can move on.

 

Exactly this. Either fix it or tell us it can't so I can stop looking at this game. I already cancelled my sub but will keep a very close eye to see if they actually fix this problem so I can return to the game. If not well then that's it I guess.

[Xcore]

Imagine trying to do something like tyring to sw:death a poly in this game. You couldn't... and it's the main reason I can't take this game or it's PvP seriously. With controls like they are now the skillcap is being pushed to the floor. This may be good for the average or bad player but it isn't good for the exceptional ones. There is something wrong with "character responsiveness" and frankly, I don't give a flying **** what the issue is. I just want it either fixed, or some indication from the developers that it CAN'T be fixed so I can move on.

 

Rofl, don't be ridiculous.... I think the Hero Engine would blow up...

[Huaracocha]

If anyone can't see or understand this issue just summon your speeder and begin driving as soon as the cast is finished. Hey presto, not mounted. Or think of all the times you blew a CD in a warzone firing into a corpse. Let's hope they give this high priority attention because I agree it is a big deal.

[Light_Valkyrie]

In WoW responsiveness was so amazing that some of the best players could consistently interrupt 0.5 second casts. Doing something like that seems impossible atm in TOR.

 

Atm they may as well remove interrupt abilities, pvp trying to interrupt a 2.5 or 3 second cast is just a joke, its like I have to pre-cast the interrupt same for pve.

[Zeetofox]

Atm they may as well remove interrupt abilities, pvp trying to interrupt a 2.5 or 3 second cast is just a joke, its like I have to pre-cast the interrupt same for pve.

 

Wow, if you can't interrupt a 2.5 sec cast as is you should go play ruenscape or something.

[Tiron_Raptor]

I just think you're wrong in not understanding the whole concept of the problem behind the feeling of Avatar/Character Responsiveness and Ability Delay.

 

There is quite a bit more to it than the fact that Client and Server are not in sync.

 

My only point of contention is that you are not accounting for the fact that Animations are Prioritized over Player Input. It has nothing to do with the fact that an animation and ability effect are separate in technicality. Bioware's combat design does not allow (in many cases) for animation clipping and because it prioritizes animation execution before you can initiate a new ability (regardless of GCD status) it comes off as clunky.

 

Now, the fact that there is a "not so hidden" delay between the server recognizing a new command and the client executing/displaying it is only part of the problem.

 

Once again, the smuggler video shows it well enough. The player is completely unable to even trigger the ability/animation or effect of the Grenade Ability until "after" the animation of the blaster bolts has absolutely concluded... even though the Cast time on the blaster bold ability has long finished AND the GCD has concluded as well. So in that case we're looking at about a 1.5 sec delay.

 

1.5 sec delay before the command can be sent to the server etc. and yes completely besides the point is that the mob takes damage immediately instead of when the grenade hits it. The point is the ability itself is delayed by 1.5 seconds overall (roughly).

 

That's the thing: I haven't yet seen anything, video or in game, that demonstrates abilities being held back from being sent to the server because of an animation. If it's happening, yes, it's a problem.

 

And that's been exactly my point: when I watch the smuggler video? I see the grenade being activated a few frames after the cast time finishes. I even did an illustration:

 

http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/6273/debunkify.jpg

 

The ability is on cooldown, the second GCD has started, the resources have been pulled. The charged burst anim is less than halfway done, and the castbar isn't even gone yet.

 

When you watch the video, the resources actually get pulled in two discrete chunks a fraction of a second apart.

 

All these bits of UI Feedback indicate that the grenade has been activated successfully when the first animation's barely even started.

 

It's been activated the instant the server accepts it as being activated: nothing else matters as far as the execution of the ability is concerned. It might seem 'wrong' to you and bother you, but there's not one shred of evidence in there demonstrating the grenade activation being hindered in any way.

 

There IS evidence of the grenade animation being delayed till the charged burst finishes.

 

It isn't even 100% clear if the visible effects of the grenade have been delayed, for that matter: it LOOKS like it's been held back to the start of the anim(the very INSTANT the charged bolt is done, the damage and debuff go on, before you can really tell the grenade anim has started).

 

Goes like this:

 

0:03 almost exactly: Charged bolt cast finishes and grenade gets activated. Both sets of resources are pulled in two discrete steps, the second a mere few frames after the grenade activates.

 

0:04 a couple frames after the second ticks over, the grenade damage and debuff are applied on the target's healthbar and the grenade anim starts. GCD From grenade not quite finished yet.

 

0:05 a couple frames after the second ticks over, the grenade hits the target, activating the damage flytext.

 

The problem here is that the delay after hitting the button before the damage and debuff appear on the target's healthbar is very nearly the same exact amount of time it takes for the grenade anim to play out: right about 1 second. More exact timing would require dissecting the video frame by frame.

 

The flytext showing the damage, on the other hand, doesn't appear until the grenade actually hits the target. The fact that the damage had already been applied a full second before that on the target's healthbar clearly indicates the client holding back the flytext to make it look 'right'.

 

But because of that timing...thing, it's impossible to tell with certainty if the grenade's damage and debuff being applied on the UI (which I've said repeatedly doesn't get delayed, even when the anims do) is due to the anim starting...or the game timing that the anim should've taken about that amount of time and applying it then regardless.

 

The problem comes because the animation time of charged bolt is almost exactly the same: 1 second or so.

 

An ability with a longer animation in front would push the start of the grenade anim out, which would clarify if the damage was being applied to the healthbar based on the anim or based on a simple timer estimating the length of the anim.

 

Either way, the effects of the grenade are fully applied BEFORE you could possibly activate a third ability, plain as day.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Tiron_Raptor

[genesiser]

Ability delay to me is the biggest let down in this game. Two of my friends stopped playing and have decided to go back to their old mmo. They said the combat felt too sluggish and almost beta-like. Other than that they liked the game. But the combat was just too much to overcome. They said if it ever gets fixed they'll give it another try (they are brothers).

 

I agree with them especially when playing my jedi guardian. I still have one friend playing this game and we are going to stick around for at least another month. Hopefully they will have fixed this issue soon so we can get our two buddies back into it.

Edited January 6, 2012 by genesiser

[Xcore]

Either way, the effects of the grenade are fully applied BEFORE you could possibly activate a third ability, plain as day.

 

That isn't the problem, the problem is the .5 sec delay after the Cast of the previous ability as well as the GCD completing to get the next instant ability off, which is the grenade ability.

 

Its a very small delay to some, to others its incredibly jarring and quite obvious.

 

 

If the Grenade ability would simply clip the previous ability, as in WoW... there would be no real issue.

[Tynie]

If this ability delay issue is not fixed before my free month runs out, I will just cancel and go play something else. I can't even dps in groups and forget about pvp. The casting animations sometimes don't even play by the time the ability is through. I can't believe not one word has been mentioned about this from Bioware. I don't have very much emotional investment in this game so it makes no difference to me. I want to love this game, but sluggish combat and unresponsive animations and casting times are a complete deal breaker for me. Diablo 3 is looking better all the time.

[Zeetofox]

If this ability delay issue is not fixed before my free month runs out, I will just cancel and go play something else. I can't even dps in groups and forget about pvp. The casting animations sometimes don't even play by the time the ability is through. I can't believe not one word has been mentioned about this from Bioware. I don't have very much emotional investment in this game so it makes no difference to me. I want to love this game, but sluggish combat and unresponsive animations and casting times are a complete deal breaker for me. Diablo 3 is looking better all the time.

 

Anyone who says they can't play the game because of the slight delay is either just taking the word terrible to a new level. Either that or they're exaggerating this issue tenfold either way, they said they'd fix it and i can PvP just fine since the delay happens EVERY time so i adapt, expect it, and play around it until it's fixed.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Zeetofox

[Flebberflep]

For those of you having trouble interrupting, I've managed to reliably interrupt a half second knockback from a droid while questing no problem. I know it's very different in PvP, but the only way I can see having trouble interrupting a 2.5-3 second cast is if the ability doesn't fire off.

 

I seriously think there is some exaggeration in this thread. I'm not trying to say there isn't a problem, because there quite clearly is, but it's not as bad as a lot of you are making it out to be.

[Zeetofox]

For those of you having trouble interrupting, I've managed to reliably interrupt a half second knockback from a droid while questing no problem. I know it's very different in PvP, but the only way I can see having trouble interrupting a 2.5-3 second cast is if the ability doesn't fire off.

 

I seriously think there is some exaggeration in this thread. I'm not trying to say there isn't a problem, because there quite clearly is, but it's not as bad as a lot of you are making it out to be.

 

^ Everyone is just exaggerating this making it sound like in PvP the other guy doesn't have the problem and has a huge advantage and it's not fair.

[Seraphiq]

Yes please fix this delay and the game will be much better

[Tiron_Raptor]

That isn't the problem, the problem is the .5 sec delay after the Cast of the previous ability as well as the GCD completing to get the next instant ability off, which is the grenade ability.

 

Its a very small delay to some, to others its incredibly jarring and quite obvious.

Ahh, now that you've explained it precisely, I do see what you're referring to. The first click happens before the GCD is done. The second is clearly AFTER the GCD is done, but doesn't trigger the ability (which, combined with the early first click, is what fooled me into thinking ability queue was on initially). Third click comes very nearly simultaneously with the ability activating...

 

and with the charged burst animation starting.

 

It actually looks like the same exact hitch on the end of the heals in the IA video.

 

Which I'm still thinking is probably a client server sync issue, especially since the client doesn't even START simulating the GCD off the second click. On that one bounty hunter vid, there's a point at the start where he tries to fire a rocket after an unload. The GCD starts for a fraction of a second, and then aborts with the error 'Target dead'.

 

What appears to be happening is that, indeed, the client does not yet think it's a valid time to use a new ability. Based on the similar behavior of the heals, I'd guess that with the castbar finished, the client goes into in a 'hold' state waiting to receive confirmation that the ability actually executed, and only then starts to animate. And that the hold state also locks out using new abilities, which is either a bug or very, very bad design.

 

The hitch itself could also be caused by a bug OR just network latency... but if it's the latter it's the result of a very naive design, as it apparently doesn't use any sort of compensation for it at ALL.

 

If the Grenade ability would simply clip the previous ability, as in WoW... there would be no real issue.

 

Except it'd look awful, and yes some people do care. You could accomplish the same thing by just fixing that hitch.

 

Edit: it occurs to me that something similar to the /stopcasting trick from wow might break the hold state and eliminate the hitch, if done late enough. Though I have heard reports of abilities being interrupted after they were believed to be finished, so this may not work, or may require such absurdly precise timing that it's a practical impossibility.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Tiron_Raptor

[Xcore]

Ahh, now that you've explained it precisely, I do see what you're referring to. The first click happens before the GCD is done. The second is clearly AFTER the GCD is done, but doesn't trigger the ability (which, combined with the early first click, is what fooled me into thinking ability queue was on initially). Third click comes very nearly simultaneously with the ability activating...

 

and with the charged burst animation starting.

 

It actually looks like the same exact hitch on the end of the heals in the IA video.

 

Which I'm still thinking is probably a client server sync issue, especially since the client doesn't even START simulating the GCD off the second click. On that one bounty hunter vid, there's a point at the start where he tries to fire a rocket after an unload. The GCD starts for a fraction of a second, and then aborts with the error 'Target dead'.

 

What appears to be happening is that, indeed, the client does not yet think it's a valid time to use a new ability. Based on the similar behavior of the heals, I'd guess that with the castbar finished, the client goes into in a 'hold' state waiting to receive confirmation that the ability actually executed, and only then starts to animate. And that the hold state also locks out using new abilities, which is either a bug or very, very bad design.

 

The hitch itself could also be caused by a bug OR just network latency... but if it's the latter it's the result of a very naive design, as it apparently doesn't use any sort of compensation for it at ALL.

 

 

 

Except it'd look awful, and yes some people do care. You could accomplish the same thing by just fixing that hitch.

 

Edit: it occurs to me that something similar to the /stopcasting trick from wow might break the hold state and eliminate the hitch, if done late enough. Though I have heard reports of abilities being interrupted after they were believed to be finished, so this may not work, or may require such absurdly precise timing that it's a practical impossibility.

 

I agree with you now, perhaps we were misunderstanding. Either way, I am of the firm belief that the "Green" is correct.

 

1) Bioware's lack of communication leads me believe they are unable to resolve the issue or even understand the issue. Both of which point to incompetence.

 

2) Bioware's inexperience with multiplayer leads me to believe in the naivety

 

3) Bioware's love and constant pre-marketing on animations (lightsabers connecting etc.)

 

4) Bioware's purchase of the Hero Engine, not developing their own engine code etc.

 

5) Bioware's generally incredibly casual nature towards gaming, I don't believe any of them would notice .5 sec delay on anything...

 

 

In any case, the IA video I am willing to argue and concede Client/Server Communication latency/lag etc. However the smuggler example is really what 90% of the people in this thread are noticing glaringly and that is, bad design... bad coding... bad ideas... bad everything.

 

Furthermore, it is the first step to bad PvE Endgame and PvP Interaction in general.