Please allow dual spec or cap respec costs.

[Crazyflames]

@ Kalanur

If your respecing specificly for a raid encounter for your Guild because they need you to, you should get credits from your guild to respec. You are not forced to respec.

[DaxRendar]

@ Kalanur

If your respecing specificly for a raid encounter for your Guild because they need you to, you should get credits from your guild to respec. You are not forced to respec.

 

His Guild doesn't need him to switch...

 

HE needs to switch if he wants to go

 

Hearing that they designed Operations around 1 Tank is just horrible news - I mean truly absolutely horrible. It will create an even greater Tank shortage in this game

[RAMunch]

Not having Dual Spec is horrible as lvl50 Tank. It's like every guild can only have 1 tank for everything including HM FPs, Raids and PvP. If there is a second tank in the guild he needs to respecc as DD for every raid and back to Tank after the raid so he can do HM FPs.

Rerolling a 2nd char? Reaching lvl 50 easy but to equip 1 Char for Raids, Flashpoints and PvP and then another one for Flashpoints and PvP is just not the right way.

 

It wouldn't be a problem if there weren't this crazy raid encounters. Every stupid encounter needs only one Tank. But not enough, if you have a 2nd tank in the raid you will get problems with the Enrage Timers because he does not do the same damage as with a DD spec.

 

Solotion 1) Make 2 or 3 Chars for everything. Not fine for people who have not much time and also stupid for those who want to max his char, because you need to max 2 or 3.

 

Solution 2) Respec every time. But with 2 Raids a Week it's 4 times respec a week. Try to get that money back if you don't have the right crewskills or not enough time to grind the credits every day.

 

Solution 3) Dual Spec. Whats so wrong about it? People could go as DMG into Raids and Tanking for Flashpoints. Same for Healers.

 

It's a real issue for Guilds, because every Guild only needs one tank... no wait.. MUST have only one tank. Fine for Raiding but try to make flashpoints if you only have one tank and this tank can only make a flashpoint once per day because of lockout. If you have more than one tank, only one of them can join the raid or you will miss dmg and enrage kills you. Yay fun.

 

If this is the reason you are for dual spec:

 

"It wouldn't be a problem if there weren't this crazy raid encounters. Every stupid encounter needs only one Tank. "

 

The problem isn't with the specing, the problem is with the content.

 

To me solving the problem by implementing dual speccing is like buying a case of oil to carry in the trunk of your car if it's leaking oil, rather than fixing the leak. Sure it "hides" the problem, but it doesn't solve it.

 

 

We should stop demanding development changes to help hide symptoms, instead we should demand development changes to fix the problem.

[DaxRendar]

We should stop demanding development changes to help hide symptoms, instead we should demand development changes to fix the problem.

 

Sadly, it is the way the game is designed.

 

Honestly, which do you think is easier/more likely to happen?

-BW Redesigns every Normal/Hard/Nightmare Mode encounter in almost every Flashpoint (Normal Esseles/Black Talon don't require dedicated Tanks/Healers... as it is impossible to be one at lvl 10 ) to support more Hybrid builds (in a game designed around "Holy Trinity" gameplay)

-BW adds Dual Spec

 

You may not like the choice, but it should be pretty obvious to you what the choice will be

[RAMunch]

And in the following example, what do you think is the better overall experience for everyone playing the game:

 

10 Tanks

150 DPS

50 Healers

 

No Dual Spec so now you and 39 other Healers and 130 DPS are sitting around ************ about the lack of Tanks and how come nobody has Cr 100,000 to throw away on a respec

 

(and the above breakout is much closer to actual Class Distribution in these kinds of games - most people just don't want to deal with Tanking)

 

In a Dual Spec world, the above situation is improved though still not completely resolved (WoW still suffers from a shortage of Tanks even with Dual Spec - hopefully SWTOR will be different but I'm not holding my breath)

 

 

 

Thank you for at least acknowledging there are other situations and possible solutions

 

Agreed that distribution would make it more difficult and would have lots standing around.

Though I think if BW took a hard stance that they weren't going to cater to the players on this issue you'd see the distribution even out

 

1 .Either because people would respec because they'd get tired of standing around and then stay in the new spec.

 

2 .Or they leave, which again would bring the distribution in line, as the people getting constant groups wouldn't be leaving out of rage.

 

 

I just don't feel that it is fair that someone that just flipped into my spec gets an equal shot at a group spot as I do if I've always been that spec, which directly impacts my gameplay even disregarding feelings.

 

I'm all for other possible solutions, I acknowledge there is a problem (actually problems) I just stand firm that dual speccing is one of the worst possible solutions. If dual spec is to be implemented then there should be an advantage to not using it since using it comes with this own advantage. Maybe like Dax said earlier in the thread that if i stay in a specific spec my abilities tied to that spec get better, this at least gives an equal bonus to those that choose not to use the system as those that do.

[Kalanur]

@ Kalanur

If your respecing specificly for a raid encounter for your Guild because they need you to, you should get credits from your guild to respec. You are not forced to respec.

 

Guild paying for respec is fine, thats right and actually what we do.

But I AM forced to respec because my damage would be to low and mob enrages.

If you are doing 16 man Raids and you have 16 or more people in your guild you need 1, Tank, 4 Healers and 11 DDs for Raids BUT 4 Tanks, 4 Healers and 8 DDs for Flashpoints. So you have 3 people who have to respec all the time. It's getting even worse the bigger the guild is. This problem would go away with Dual Spec.

 

And what's wrong about dual spec? I don't get why people are against it or why Bioware did not implement it right at the beginning. I almost regret that I made a tank in this game. Every DD can do everything of the end content (Raiding, PvP and Flashpoints) with one spec while I have to respec all the time. So it's imbalanced and also unfair.

 

Edit: Actually Dual Spec is a decisive point for my subscription. It's not the only one and I don't say that I will quit this game if they don't implement dual spec or Feature XY. But I want to be tank and at the moment it's no fun to be one except when you are THE ONE of the guild.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Kalanur

[Sparckus]

1 .Either because people would respec because they'd get tired of standing around and then stay in the new spec.

 

2 .Or they leave, which again would bring the distribution in line, as the people getting constant groups wouldn't be leaving out of rage.

[/Quote]

 

That risks losing subscribers, I don't think they'd want that.

 

I just don't feel that it is fair that someone that just flipped into my spec gets an equal shot at a group spot as I do if I've always been that spec, which directly impacts my gameplay even disregarding feelings.

 

They can already do that.

 

Your feelings or anyone else's is not a valid argument, it doesn't break or imbalance the game, you just get upset.

 

I'm all for other possible solutions, I acknowledge there is a problem (actually problems) I just stand firm that dual speccing is one of the worst possible solutions. If dual spec is to be implemented then there should be an advantage to not using it since using it comes with this own advantage. Maybe like Dax said earlier in the thread that if i stay in a specific spec my abilities tied to that spec get better, this at least gives an equal bonus to those that choose not to use the system as those that do.

 

No No No No.

 

Giving an advantage for time spent in a particular spec will be game breaking, see my previous posts. Cosmetic advantages, don't care, you can have them if it keeps you happy but no skill or stat advantages.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Sparckus

[quazzi]

Guild paying for respec is fine, thats right and actually what we do.

But I AM forced to respec because my damage would be to low and mob enrages.

If you are doing 16 man Raids and you have 16 or more people in your guild you need 1, Tank, 4 Healers and 11 DDs for Raids BUT 4 Tanks, 4 Healers and 8 DDs for Flashpoints. So you have 3 people who have to respec all the time. It's getting even worse the bigger the guild is. This problem would go away with Dual Spec.

 

Wow good point. I didn't even realize this.

[RAMunch]

Sadly, it is the way the game is designed.

 

Honestly, which do you think is easier/more likely to happen?

-BW Redesigns every Normal/Hard/Nightmare Mode encounter in almost every Flashpoint (Normal Esseles/Black Talon don't require dedicated Tanks/Healers... as it is impossible to be one at lvl 10 ) to support more Hybrid builds (in a game designed around "Holy Trinity" gameplay)

-BW adds Dual Spec

 

You may not like the choice, but it should be pretty obvious to you what the choice will be

 

Which is most likely to happen, I 100% agree with you....Dual Spec

Now will you agree with me it is not the RIGHT thing to do?

 

I've never argued that it won't happen, i'm sure it will, it's the easy band-aid to a bigger problem.

 

 

Also for Normal i don't think it'd take much tweaking, I've ran many FP normal without the holy trinity. Usually just takes above average players...or average players that can think outside of "i need to do just this one thing", like even if i was cranking out some dps, i can still drop heals when needed etc. My experience with Hard/Nightmare is limited so i can't speak to it.

 

I think it's a lot like sports.

You can have a QB that just throws and throws well, but it's nice to have one that knows when to run and doesn't just have to take a knee when he can't throw.

Or a running back that can do more than take a hand off.

 

In MMOS we play QB you throw, always throw, if you ever do something other than throw you are n00b and everyone rages.

RB...you run...always run...you run good, if you try to pass block or god forbid run a pass route we'll kill you!! catching passes is for wide receivers!!

[Lethality]

What part of unfair advantage due to time spent do you not understand?

 

If that were implemented, groups would demand it like they do in other games with min/max and addons.

 

Then the whole problem about people wanting to change specs more often than their underwear would be solved then wouldn't it?

 

There is no unfair advantage. The option is open to all players equally - should you choose to pursue it, just like loot. You have to put in the effort though.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Lethality

[DaxRendar]

If dual spec is to be implemented then there should be an advantage to not using it since using it comes with this own advantage. Maybe like Dax said earlier in the thread that if i stay in a specific spec my abilities tied to that spec get better, this at least gives an equal bonus to those that choose not to use the system as those that do.

 

Oh trust me, that wasn't me

(It was Lethality)

 

I support Legacy Bonuses or Orange Gear Sets being earned, but nothing that impacts acutal in-game performance as the draconian min-maxers will enforce it as a necessity rather than a choice

 

One thing I've noticed as interesting in this thread for anybody still reading - We've only been talking about Dual Spec.

 

I know Munchy won't like it, but how do people feel about only allowing a Single Spec but the ability to save multiple Skill Builds/Quickbar layouts and vastly reduced (Cr 100-500 total) Respec Costs?

 

People are still mildly inconvenienced by having to return to Fleet to switch, and I think it would likely be enough of a hindrance to prevent the greatest majority of players from doing it (especially) in between Encounters or for Heroic Zones, but it would let people swap for PvP/PvE much easier, or at the beginning of a run to form a group.

[DaxRendar]

Which is most likely to happen, I 100% agree with you....Dual Spec

Now will you agree with me it is not the RIGHT thing to do?

 

The simplest way I can answer that is to say I grow ever more impatient for the day Guild Wars 2 comes out (a game system you might very much hate but one that for me solves many of the issues I have with MMO Designs)

 

I think Dual Spec is the "right" thing for BW to do, based on the choices they've already made on how they designed SWTOR.

 

Do I think they made the right choices initially? Well no actually I don't. I think they've put together a very fun game that I'm enjoying quite a bit, and one I hope to enjoy playing for a long time (even after GW2 comes out), but I most definitely would've done things differently

[Sparckus]

just like loot. You have to put in the effort though.

 

Loot requires you play the game and do well to get it, your suggestion just means watching the /played timer and poof you've got a stat bonus.

[Jonuts]

Actually.. Dual Spec is so wrong....

Feels like cheating to me.

Or more like spoiling people who cant choose and want everything easy.

 

If you want to tank... roll a tank.

If you want to healer ... roll a healer.

etc..

Whats wrong with creating 3 chars?...

 

And if you dont want to roll 3 chars... then you have to pay for the privilege of not having to level up 2-3 chars.

 

Sounds normal to me.

 

Being able to create 1 char that can fill 3 rolls on the fly is not only "to easy" ... its also just plain unrealistic (yes.. i said it.. unrealistic in a fantasy game!!)

 

But hey.. it'll probably be implemented cause there are more people wanting easy-play then there are people that want a challenge

 

You seem to be mistaking "Tedious" for "Challenging". You also seem to be mistaking "Convenience" with "Lack of Challenge". Both are very common mistakes, and I can't figure out the brain process that leads to such a thought. Perhaps all forms of quick travel should be removed too, right? Because the tediousness of walking for 20 minutes through enemies 20 levels lower than you adds challenge, right?

 

I find the lack of dual spec a bit concerning. It doesn't add difficulty, it adds tediousness. It's less time spent enjoying the game, and more time spent fighting the game. This is good...how? Once you start forcing people to level up a new character every time they want to do something their CURRENT CHARACTER can do, you start adding the grind back into the game. Leveling is no longer enjoyable, it's a chore. This is a good thing...how?

 

Before complaining about people wanting some form of convenience, think about it. Does the convenience being proposed remove challenge or tediousness? If it removes both, is there a method to preserve challenge while removing tediousness? In this case, dual (or tri, or quad, or fifty trillion!) spec removes the tedious nature of being locked into spec's, while not removing the challenge of the game.

 

I know Munchy won't like it, but how do people feel about only allowing a Single Spec but the ability to save multiple Skill Builds/Quickbar layouts and vastly reduced (Cr 100-500 total) Respec Costs?

 

See? Ideas like that? Good compromise. Now I'm not sure how much credits are actually worth, so I can't comment about the cost, but the "tediousness" of respeccing is removed, which is the biggest complaint. I don't see any purpose being actually served by requiring us to head to fleet to respec, but it's better than the current option.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Jonuts

[quazzi]

You seem to be mistaking "Tedious" for "Challenging". .

 

 

Leveling the same AC over again to play a dif spec is not challenging its tedious. end of story.

[Sparckus]

Leveling the same AC over again to play a dif spec is not challenging its tedious. end of story.

 

Thats what he said lol.

 

Bioware have done a great job of eliminating grinding while levelling. I don't see them going against that by keeping dual spec out.

[Jonuts]

Quazzi, that was kinda my point.

[HexHammer]

Respec costs are absurdly high, specially considering the frequent respec we need to do our mandatory Hutt Ball, flashpoints and grind, how are we do change between DpS, PvP and healer spec 10 times a day? Even more in weekends!

 

I belive this absurdity roots in time constrains that EA pushed BW to release the game unfinished.

 

So thanks to the money mongering EA!

[zootzoot]

No, because it will eventually effect EVERY PLAYER if the ability to swap specs instantly is in the game. And not in a good way. The design itself will begin to suffer from it.

 

How exactly?

 

I just don't see it. WOW was the first MMO to have Dual spec and I don't see any impact there. The devs killed hybrid specs...it had nothing to do with Dual spec if that's what you mean.

[Sharma]

Respec costs are absurdly high, specially considering the frequent respec we need to do our mandatory Hutt Ball, flashpoints and grind, how are we do change between DpS, PvP and healer spec 10 times a day? Even more in weekends!

 

I belive this absurdity roots in time constrains that EA pushed BW to release the game unfinished.

 

So thanks to the money mongering EA!

 

unless its all working as intended and youre suppose to stick with one spec. why cant you do hutt ball, flashpoints, or grind all as a healer? i do.

[Equusdoc]

I have not read one good argument against this, other than people who havent ever had this in a game and have no idea what you are missing.

 

PVP spec and PVE spec = good thing

 

Heal spec and DPS spec = good thing

 

People will be happier and will still roll new characters to try different content, story lines etc. This just gives us more flexibility in our selected characters. There is no way I am going to reroll a scoundrel just so I can have a heal spec and my current dps spec.

 

RIFT allowed multiple specs, and was the only truly outstanding thing that game had.

[DeathHenk]

There is no way I am going to reroll a scoundrel just so I can have a heal spec and my current dps spec.

 

Don't forget the gear, the companion affection and codex entries your main character has.

Edited January 8, 2012 by DeathHenk

[Sendrel]

why cant you do hutt ball, flashpoints, or grind all as a healer? i do.

 

Personal preference? Why is it so hard to accept that other people don't play the game in the exact same manner and/or with the exact same goals in mind as others? For many people, the ability to vary playstyles on the same character is fun. That type of variation can lead to player retention.

[Arzalch]

It is all very easy.

 

Play a tank, do less damage. Get over it.

Play a dps, do lot of damage, but can;t do anything but damage. Get over it.

Play Healer, do less damage. Get over it.

 

Choose a role stick to it. I am levelling a vanguard tank specced with my healer as companion. It takes not long to kill enemies. I also levelled an imperial sniper whit which I killed the enemies faster but I could not adapt easily to unforeseen situation ( like accidenlty pulling 2 groups = death) With my vanguard I can kill those 2 groups easily.

 

It are the choices you make when you take a specific role. Let people roll between roles like olololololololol 1 mouse click is not right.

 

People who cry about a dual spec or otherwise go to wow, there you get everything for free. Don't mess up a good game, because you are too lazy to play straight or you can't stick to a choice.

 

regards.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Arzalch

[DeathHenk]

It is all very easy.

 

Play a tank, do less damage. Get over it.

Play a dps, do lot of damage, but can;t do anything but damage. Get over it.

Play Healer, do less damage. Get over it.

 

Choose a role stick to it. I am levelling a vanguard tank specced with my healer as companion. It takes not long to kill enemies. I also levelled an imperial sniper whit which I killed the enemies faster but I could not adapt easily to unforeseen situation ( like accidenlty pulling 2 groups = death) With my vanguard I can kill those 2 groups easily.

 

It are the choices you make when you take a specific role. Let people roll between roles like olololololololol 1 mouse click is not right.

 

People who cry about a dual spec or otherwise go to wow, there you get everything for free. Don't mess up a good game, because you are too lazy to play straight and stick to a choice.

 

regards.

 

So your argument against dual spec is because I'm too lazy to make a choice?