Agents overpowred to a gamebreaking degree

[Aspeqc]

No need to demonize your opponents; it's not just the "entitled brats" who complain about it. It's simple human nature: each of us will have our own idea of how a game SHOULD be played, and this skews our ideas of what is and isn't acceptable behavior. And that concept of the proper way to play the game will often drive our choice in classes.

 

We agree on the overall idea here, although my method of expression is less refined.

 

The people who have massive amounts of firepower but armor made from wet Kleenex are generally the folks who believe that the best defense is a good offense; who needs armor when your foes can never reach you alive? Or, it might be the folks who believe that battles should be decided by intelligent management of positioning, focusing fire, crowd control, and attack cycles in a true team effort. As a result, the classes that bypass the carefully laid plans by popping out of nowhere to butcher the ranged support folks in a 1-on-1 fight? They're not playing it right, and should be stopped.

I'd bet that's why so many of the complainers are from the classes that are our intended victims, the glass cannons: it's not only that they're unhappy to die, it's that some of them probably think that they SHOULDN'T die that way while performing their role, because it doesn't fit with their conceptions about how the warzones should work.

 

"Rock is fine, nerf scissors." ~Paper

 

On the other hand, the people who play tanks often don't care. While their DPS might not equal ours, they can basically weather our alpha strike (even with so much of it being penetrating damage) and kill us. The unexpectedness isn't an issue; they're expecting to take damage, after all, since it's their job. They're the Rock to our Scissors. I haven't seen too many complaints out of those folks, really, except for the usual DPS envy. (I remember back in EQ, when some Warriors were arguing that their class should deal the most damage because it had "War" in the name.)

 

Intended victims are vulnerable targets, regardless of armor or role. I've seen plenty of complaints from tanks both on forums and in-game.

 

And on the gripping hand, there are those in-between folks. Operative medics, Snipers, etc., or people who have stealth on their other character; these folks are very familiar with what we can do and what stealth's limitations are, but didn't choose that path themselves. I'm sure there'll always be a bit of buyer's regret (did I gimp myself by going Sniper?), but I haven't seen too many complaints there either. Over time, I think most people will end up in this group; if a Sorcerer thinks that Ops are way too strong, he'll try making one himself and it won't take long to become disillusioned.

 

I've noticed people are more inclined to just whine than actually learn. That's why I used the term "entitled brats." They seem to be of the opinion that everyone else should think [and play] the same way that they do.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Aspeqc

[rmVpr]

Lol he was running around with those healing drones and stunning people and healing up really fast. What a non dps op needs a nerf too cause he has a hot and some utility for his group?

 

 

Lmao ****

 

Did you read the whole post? I don't mind him being in an utility role. But an utility class should do that much damage and healing at the same time. Not to mention survivability...

[Aspeqc]

Did you read the whole post? I don't mind him being in an utility role. But an utility class should do that much damage and healing at the same time. Not to mention survivability...

 

You have a funny concept of what support should be. If you're making a utility/healer spend all his resources on himself, you've effectively shut him down. It doesn't matter that he's surviving at that point because he's not supporting his team any longer.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Aspeqc

[Soundz_Painful]

Did you read the whole post? I don't mind him being in an utility role. But an utility class should do that much damage and healing at the same time. Not to mention survivability...

 

 

 

 

That much damage? If he has kolto probes he doesn't have enough points to spec into acid blade when alot of the burst comes from, so unless this op is lvl50+, I'm not following.

[Nonameperson]

I bet the OP plays Merc, he doesn't want his class to get Nerfed so he redirects it to our class.

 

Darn bastardo

[Soundz_Painful]

^^^

 

 

Its always easier to point the finger

[Aspeqc]

^^^

 

 

Its always easier to point the finger

 

Isn't it sort of ironic to redirect the topic away from operatives, accuse the op of being a merc, claim mercs are op, then accuse mercs of redirecting by complaining about operatives?

[CSMatthew]

In a nutshell... there are always going to be people that shred in MMO/PVP, they have a certain knack for it, it's like second nature... let's call them the 10 percenters... It really doesn't matter what class they play, what ever they choose to roll they will be able to roll face with...

 

Then there are the rest of us, sometimes good, sometimes bad, few times great, sometimes in groups, sometimes solo, majority of the time, mediocre... They make up the bulk of the gaming community. If you are not a 10 percenter ( And you know who you are) then you fall into this category.

 

Accept your mediocrity, live it, love it... it's ok, there are more of us than them.

 

A good operative (at least in the 70th percentile) should be able to own most classes 1v1 based of the mechanics of the class. They will do it and do it fast, and if they don't do it quick enough, they will die.

 

Hope that was clear...

[Spatzimaus]

I've noticed people are more inclined to just whine than actually learn.

 

There are always going to be people like that. Having taught college courses, it's more than a little disturbing to see a college student who wants to be a doctor or something and yet who doesn't want to study.

 

I suppose we should also clarify this particular point further: there are people who just don't ever want to learn, to be sure, but then there are the folks who just have yet to learn the intricacies of this game's balance and are basing their preconceptions on what worked in certain other MMOs. Over time that second group will disappear, and I just hope that Bioware doesn't cave on their design too quickly, since it's a pretty good design. (Needs some tweaks, obviously, but what doesn't?)

 

Thing is, SWTOR isn't exactly a groundbreaking game. Its design is pretty derivative of quite a few other MMOs, which isn't a bad thing in this case. So Bioware's first-guess balance is probably pretty decent; it's not like the early MMOs, where a class' role might COMPLETELY change from its original design (EQ Enchanters) or where the entire game's core design might get remade (SWG). That's why this whole discussion is a bit scary; the people complaining about stealth MUST have encountered it before (unless this is their first MMO), which means that some of the complainers might not be from people who actually think we're overpowered, but are instead doing so simply in the hope that the enemies they're most vulnerable to (us) get nerfed and make them better by comparison.

[Jjix]

You mean it's a tried and tested role in RPG's dating back to Pen and Paper D&D? You're right. No reason to change things like there's no reason to change the basic idea of healers, casters and melee damage dealers.

 

Explain how to design a Stealth class that doesn't just become a clone of other melee DPS if Stealth and damage out of Stealth isn't part of their repertoire?

 

The whines against stealth assassin classes occurs over and over. Remember Witch Elves in Warhammer or infiltrators from DAOC?

 

But I don't see why there is an inherent need for front loaded dmg to be connected with stealth? The very idea of ganking classes just seems like bad design.

[Butki]

An interesting difference in this game (I guess ...) is that Ops play against a lot of other Ops in Hutt Ball. While they sure can be annoying, especially when someone bothers to heal them , I would definitely not rank other Ops as the most dangerous opponents.

[Aspeqc]

That's why this whole discussion is a bit scary; the people complaining about stealth MUST have encountered it before (unless this is their first MMO), which means that some of the complainers might not be from people who actually think we're overpowered, but are instead doing so simply in the hope that the enemies they're most vulnerable to (us) get nerfed and make them better by comparison.

 

I played a bard in EQ and a rogue in WoW. Both classes were nerfed/changed repeatedly due to exactly these kinds of complaints. Other games like Warhammer and DAoC have treated stealth [classes] similarly. In some cases, it was completely justified. If the Bioware developers don't cave, they'll actually be breaking the mold, which seems unlikely considering how derivative their class design choices are. It's not much of a stretch to imagine that they'll want to reach a similar balance point [to other mmos].

 

I'm not going to say rogues and bards are underpowered, but the nature of their roles are completely different from what was originally intended by the developers due to the severity of certain changes based on feedback.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Aspeqc

[Spatzimaus]

I'm not going to say rogues and bards are underpowered, but the nature of their roles are completely different from what was originally intended by the developers due to the severity of certain changes based on feedback.

 

This is why I brought up EQ's Enchanter class. What was its defining ability? Mesmerize. You'd bring a chanter along for crowd control, while the rest of your team focused on one foe at a time, and they became in integral part of the "holy trinity" of classes as a result. Did you know that in EQ's original design, only the very first Mez spell (the short-duration one at level 4) existed? It was only intended to be a stopgap until the chanters reached level 12 and unlocked their true class-defining ability... Charm. The devs only added the rest of the mez spells (and the Tashan series of magic resistance debuffs) due to player feedback during beta, after it was pointed out that the higer-level beta players were STILL using the level 4 spell in preference to charm spells.

 

Classes CAN change their designs. It's what betas are for, and let's be honest; most MMOs these days could really use a bit more testing before release, to where the first month after release acts a lot like an extended beta. Honestly, I'd be okay with them reducing the Conceal Op's burst damage, as long as they provide us with some other role to play in groups/PvP. That's why I mentioned status/knockback resist; if our role in groups was as the "light tanks" that would die faster to raw damage but who couldn't be disrupted with those non-damage effects, we'd have a niche. More Monk than Rogue, but still useful.

So let's suggest some things they could do to reduce the front-loaded damage but not hurt the class as a whole:

> Change Lacerate from a one-shot pure damage effect to something a bit less front-loaded. A DoT with a "slow" effect (-attack speed/alacrity, not snare) would be great, and wouldn't cause those issues. If that's too much like Acid Blade, then keep it a DD effect but tone the amount down to make up for the debuff.

> Knock Hidden Strike's damage down, but allow it to be used without breaking stealth. You'd still decloak when doing your full attack cycle, but it'd allow Ops to kill a heavily wounded enemy without immediately becoming a sitting duck for his friends.

 

I'm sure others could make good suggestions, but the point being, if you think the front-loaded burst DPS is a problem in general, then suggest changes that allow those of us who use it to smoothly transition into a different playstyle. Not just "nerf 'em all and let God sort 'em out".

[Ultratron]

Yeah so this happened

 

http://imgur.com/SGHSo

 

Part of it is that he's lvl 50 and was geared but still this is way beyond anything even reasonable for a class to do. I remember when one of the main selling points of this game was that you couldn't be stunlocked and killed... lie.

 

Agents have, not only the most stuns in the game, but on the shortest CDs, i believe an agent can get debilitate to a 30 second CD... *** really? Then their opener knocks you down for 3 seconds where they make such a health deficit that there is literally no way to come back and you have to either run or die. Even if you CC break the knockdown, because of the broken resolve system they debilitate you and if you manage to get a lead on them to run away or go for a health powerup they just flashbang you...

 

This needs fixing ASAP it is ruining pvp for everyone.

 

 

Jarring Strike fills an entire resolve bar. You cannot debilitate after your opener. Facts not rage please.

[Domiinick]

The 50% armor pen needs to be knocked off Acid Blade. That's it.

[Aspeqc]

I'm sure others could make good suggestions, but the point being, if you think the front-loaded burst DPS is a problem in general, then suggest changes that allow those of us who use it to smoothly transition into a different playstyle. Not just "nerf 'em all and let God sort 'em out".

 

If a class's role is too vital or it brings something so unique that stacking it becomes desirable or even necessary to success, then there's probably an issue. WoW's warlocks experienced something similar to EQ's enchanter class, leading to a rather in-depth rework of the class.

 

It seems laceration is too powerful for its location within the tree. The obvious fix would be to move it, but that leaves operatives without an effective ability for leveling. An ability like acid blade is hardly useful when grinding against normal mobs and would be a poor replacement for lacerate as a lower tier ability. Perhaps slightly lowering laceration's effectiveness and providing talents later in the tree to make it more powerful would be an alternative option.

 

Nerfing the frontloaded damage would also resolve the issue of hybrids being too effective, but then the role of the class is inherently different. Operative is then relegated to a support/control or even healer role as direct damage trees became more akin to sustain dps minus mobility, easily beaten by tanks and now even the offensive casters which we were once designed to dispatch.

 

All of this completely disregards how it would affect pve performance of the class as well, but I have a feeling that operative is already confined to a healing role at endgame.

[Aspeqc]

The 50% armor pen needs to be knocked off Acid Blade. That's it.

 

So heavily-armored ranged dps casters (i.e. mercs) should be allowed to use armor penetration to melt tanks, but lightly-armored melee burst damage should not? I assume you're "okay" with operatives beating ranged casters, right? What would we do against mercs themselves if we had no armor penetration on our pure damage spec? How would this reduce the effectiveness of the "overpowered" hybrids? What would we do in pve without armor penetration to aid our dps?

Edited January 5, 2012 by Aspeqc

[Domiinick]

So heavily-armored ranged dps casters (i.e. mercs) should be allowed to use armor penetration to melt tanks, but lightly-armored melee burst damage should not? I assume you're "okay" with operatives beating ranged casters, right? What would we do against mercs themselves if we had no armor penetration on our pure damage spec? How would this reduce the effectiveness of the "overpowered" hybrids? What would we do in pve without armor penetration to aid our dps?

 

No class needs a constant 50% armor pen, period. Even the merc's only get the 25% and that's still kinda hard to deal with, but they don't get dots off of it.

 

Again, they need to take out the armor pen for acid blade. It's not needed, and it's not going to obliterate pve'ers dps either, they'll just have to rely on jugs, guardians, and anything else with armor decreasing.

 

But no, I'm sorry, a burst damage class doesn't need 50% armor pen, on top of their already monsterous burst damage. That's all there is too it.

[Spatzimaus]

It seems laceration is too powerful for its location within the tree. The obvious fix would be to move it, but that leaves operatives without an effective ability for leveling.

 

I think you've hit on something. Concealment gameplay, especially PvE, is basically divided into two periods: 1-19 (Before Laceration) and 20+. It's not just that Lacerate is pretty awesome (which it is), it's that for a class that's expected to melee a lot, you go from having a couple weak melee attacks and some gun abilities, to suddenly having an almost-full attack rotation that's all about damage. It's night and day.

 

Another thing to remember is that most advanced classes gain three activated abilities: one in tier 3 (level 20), one in tier 5 (level 30), and the final one in tier 7 (level 40). Concealment is missing that middle step; you have Laceration, and then nothing but passives or boosts of existing abilities until Acid Blade. So if they were to reduce Laceration and Acid Blade slightly, but give us a new custom ability in tier 5 to compensate, I'd be happy. It wouldn't even need to be another attack; how about what we've been suggesting, and give us a buff with a 1-minute cooldown that gives 10 seconds of immunity (or 20 seconds of 50% resistance) to knockbacks, slows, etc.?

 

Alternatively, they could just bump Lacerate back to tier 4. For Conceal ops, it wouldn't really change anything other than the level at which they become "good" (25 vs. 20), but it'd drastically reduce the ability of Medicine/Lethality Ops to be hybrids. But given how hard it was to play concealment before level 20, I wouldn't suggest this route.

 

Nerfing the frontloaded damage would also resolve the issue of hybrids being too effective, but then the role of the class is inherently different.

 

Depends on how you do it. Instead of 1000 raw damage, you can use a frontloaded DoT (500 damage up front and then 100 per 3 seconds for 30 seconds, for 1500 total) or even degrading (i.e. deal 300, then 3 seconds later deal 275, then 250, and so on until you deal 25 on the 33rd second, for 1950 total). We'd still be about "burst" DPS as a whole, since our abilities aren't really set up for sustained use, but wouldn't be quite so frontloaded on raw damage. I think the problem is that our melee attack set (Shiv + Lacerate + Backstab + Hidden Strike + Eviscerate) consists of all straight-damage effects, with no extra effects other than the TAs (at least until you get the knockdown for HS); even the two "status" attacks (Debilitate and Sever Tendon) are DDs followed by a durational debuff. Our only DoTs are Corrosive Dart and Acid Blade. Heck, even the triggered damage off the Lacerate's expansion talents is a DD.

 

So if you were to change ONE of those abilities (most likely Lacerate) to be just a bit less up-front and left the rest alone, we'd still be a burst damage class, just not quite SO burst-y. Or have HS deal much less damage, but it stuns the target for a few seconds, setting the victim up for your other attacks (like Backstab, which it effectively duplicates at present). Point is, instead of 5 DD attacks, I'd rather have three or four DD attacks and a couple good utility attacks; it'd be more fun, AND you'd have fewer complaints from other classes. Win-win!

[Aspeqc]

No class needs a constant 50% armor pen, period. Even the merc's only get the 25% and that's still kinda hard to deal with, but they don't get dots off of it.

 

Again, they need to take out the armor pen for acid blade. It's not needed, and it's not going to obliterate pve'ers dps either, they'll just have to rely on jugs, guardians, and anything else with armor decreasing.

 

But no, I'm sorry, a burst damage class doesn't need 50% armor pen, on top of their already monsterous burst damage. That's all there is too it.

 

I'm going to assume you're a powertech and excuse the ignorance but:

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/gvSqk6E

http://www.torhead.com/ability/74A88UM

 

In a game with such small "raids" it's silly expect to force stacking by making a specific class bring a buff that everyone else is reliant on, not to mention that a good number of the armor penetration buffs are self-only and are not debuffs applied to the target for everyone to take advantage of.

 

No, I'm the one that's sorry. Clearly you don't have any other way of avoiding damage or controlling a fight. Armor penetration is the sole issue. It's not like shields, flat damage reduction via cooldowns, and avoidance through defense offer flat mitigation that isn't affected by armor penetration. Armor penetration is almost LESS effective overall vs tanks due to these mechanics.

[Aspeqc]

I think you've hit on something. Concealment gameplay, especially PvE, is basically divided into two periods: 1-19 (Before Laceration) and 20+. It's not just that Lacerate is pretty awesome (which it is), it's that for a class that's expected to melee a lot, you go from having a couple weak melee attacks and some gun abilities, to suddenly having an almost-full attack rotation that's all about damage. It's night and day.

 

. . .

 

So if you were to change ONE of those abilities (most likely Lacerate) to be just a bit less up-front and left the rest alone, we'd still be a burst damage class, just not quite SO burst-y. Or have HS deal much less damage, but it stuns the target for a few seconds, setting the victim up for your other attacks (like Backstab, which it effectively duplicates at present). Point is, instead of 5 DD attacks, I'd rather have three or four DD attacks and a couple good utility attacks; it'd be more fun, AND you'd have fewer complaints from other classes. Win-win!

 

All good options and ideas. It's the nature of the class to take advantage of people -- kicking them while they're down. Targetting "squishy" players based on their class, gear levels, and then running away or disappearing can be a very frustrating and "anti-fun" experience for the victim. Meanwhile, our performance against equally-geared and skilled players might be perfectly balanced. Part of the issue is that people don't even understand why operatives are good.

 

In this thread, the OP and others in support of his opinions have addressed several issues and they cannot seem to agree on the exact problem. The OP himself mentions that resolve isn't always working properly, while claiming this class is "gamebreaking." Maybe once resolve is functioning 100%, facing an operative/scoundrel won't feel so daunting and he'll figure out that he has an appropriate window of opportunity to retaliate or escape. Some people are claiming hybrid specs are ridiculous, others point out acid blade's armor penetration as an issue (I find these to be the weakest arguments), while others simply hate the idea of the class due to its previously stated nature.

 

Until the issue is pinpointed (assuming there even is an issue other than ignorance), we'll continue to see hate spewed because someone got ambushed and immediately alt+tabbed to rant on the forums as a knee-jerk reaction instead of thinking, "What can I do to improve my play or avoid this situation again?" or at least, "Why did that just happen?"

Edited January 5, 2012 by Aspeqc

[Morticoccus]

No class needs a constant 50% armor pen, period. Even the merc's only get the 25% and that's still kinda hard to deal with, but they don't get dots off of it.

 

Again, they need to take out the armor pen for acid blade. It's not needed, and it's not going to obliterate pve'ers dps either, they'll just have to rely on jugs, guardians, and anything else with armor decreasing.

 

But no, I'm sorry, a burst damage class doesn't need 50% armor pen, on top of their already monsterous burst damage. That's all there is too it.

 

Mercenaries get a cylinder that, while I would assume it costs heat to apply, is permanent until removed and grants them 35% AP, on top of this tracer missiles apply a stacking 5% AP debuff on the target.

 

Acid blade costs 15 energy to apply and affects a single attack before dissipating.

 

Clearly acid blade is a permanent effect that should be removed.

[blarse]

Mercenaries get a cylinder that, while I would assume it costs heat to apply, is permanent until removed and grants them 35% AP, on top of this tracer missiles apply a stacking 5% AP debuff on the target.

 

Acid blade costs 15 energy to apply and affects a single attack before dissipating.

 

Clearly acid blade is a permanent effect that should be removed.

 

Wrong, the armor penetration of acid blade is a self buff that lasts 15 seconds. It can be up 100% up the time with the DoT being up 66.66% of the time against your target simply by using acid blade before every backstab (9 second cooldown). It does cost energy though, I'd say the BH version is on par if not better. While it has to be ramped up the stacks are on an attack they'd be using anyways (tracer missile) and it has a higher % of penetration when it is fully ramped up.

[WarMedic]

Ops ARE NOT unbeatable. Peeps seriously need to L2P...

[Smellyead]

OP obviously hasn't seen from our mirror class on these very forums.

 

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii144/sparks03max/swtor2011-12-3114-57-05-43.jpg

 

The Scoundrel that did has his own thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=63530