Expertise is too much

[Kyrinic]

This.

 

I rolled raid-geared players in vanilla WoW in my blues because of this thing called "skill". It involved knowing my class, knowing theirs and knowing how one could outdo the other.

 

Here's an idea, make the following true and there won't be a problem.

 

On average, it will take a player 5 months worth of time in operations to achieve the best gear.

 

On average, it will take a player 5 months worth of time in PvP to achieve the best gear.

 

And guess what? The gear can be the same with no need for a PvP stat that divides the endgame in half, forcing people with a limited amount of time to pick one and stick with it.

 

Let PvPers do operations with their PvP-earned gear and let PvEers have a snowball's chance in hell in WZs with their PvE earned gear.

 

Do what Blizzard could not, Bioware: balance the game without a cop-out PvP stat.

 

 

No. PVP and get PVP gear if you want to have the best gear for PVP.

 

The way it should be, and the way it is. Sorry.

[MEdiKLEZ]

I'll repeat. With even a minimum of effort to test, you can instantly see the vast advantage a similarly geared PVPer has over a PVE geared player. This combined with the CONSIDERABLY easier gearing the PVP players have (hint: they can gather the comms for their gear the whole time they are leveling, which is ridiculous, there is no equivalent for PVE) makes anyone who wishes to focus 75% on PVE and only 25% on PVP for example, completely incapable of effective PVP.

 

There are also players on pvp servers which wish to focus 100% on pvp. And if it was possible to gain pvp gear faster than pve, why dont you just do that like everyone else on your pve sever?

 

This.

 

Here's an idea, make the following true and there won't be a problem.

 

On average, it will take a player 5 months worth of time in operations to achieve the best gear.

 

On average, it will take a player 5 months worth of time in PvP to achieve the best gear.

 

And guess what? The gear can be the same with no need for a PvP stat that divides the endgame in half, forcing people with a limited amount of time to pick one and stick with it.

 

I would like to see that! Good post!

Edited January 9, 2012 by MEdiKLEZ

[Battletalon]

Columni PVE gear is better for PVE than the Champion set which is better for PVP

 

One thing I never got into is min-maxing, so I don't know why you say that. Can you elaborate for me?

[Skouros]

You PVP to get PVP gear to help you in PVP.

 

You PVE to get PVE gear to help you in PVE.

 

Expertise is increase and reduction against players. Why doesn't PVE have an equivalent? BECAUSE THEY ALREADY DO. Power/Strength increases your damage. Resistance/Defense reduced damage.

Oh, so you don't need or use Defense, Strength, Power, Crit, Surge, Accuracy... none of that in PVP?

 

How come the PVP gear doesn't just have Expertise on it then. That's all it needs, the rest is PVE stats!

 

Oh, that's right. You use both, we only use some. Its unequal, and it is causing an unbalancing of the game, and you know it.

 

 

No. PVP and get PVP gear if you want to have the best gear for PVP.

 

The way it should be, and the way it is. Sorry.

If we were both wearing exactly the same gear, identical stats in every single way, but you got yours from PVP and I got mine from PVE... who would win?

 

The player with the most skill.

 

If you deny this, then you admit you do not care about skill, that you prefer to own peoples face off in PVP PURELY ON GEAR, and you don't care about a fair fight at all.

 

This is why PVE players are pissed at PVP players, because the PVP players are getting free ownage on us any time we come into their territory. Unfortunately, there is nothing stopping them from coming into ours, because our territory is free and open to everyone, and fair game to any who can accomplish it. Yours, however, is only fair game to those who have the time to dedicate to earning the PVP gear.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Skouros

[TheRealDestian]

No. PVP and get PVP gear if you want to have the best gear for PVP.

 

The way it should be, and the way it is. Sorry.

 

"Skill" is my PvP stat.

 

It's all anyone should ever need.

[buttski]

everybody can obtain it easy. where's your prob?

[Vlaid]

Um....does the OP realize the fact that PVE gear doesn't have Expertise on it is that "extra stat" that PVE gear needs to make it better than pvp?

 

By not having Expertise PVE gear has a whole nother secondary stat on it than PVP gear. That's why you want PVE gear for PVE and PVP gear for PVP.

[Skouros]

Um....does the OP realize the fact that PVE gear doesn't have Expertise on it is that "extra stat" that PVE gear needs to make it better than pvp?

 

By not having Expertise PVE gear has a whole nother secondary stat on it than PVP gear. That's why you want PVE gear for PVE and PVP gear for PVP.

Yes, I realize that PVE gear has more stats on it than the PVE gear, and that some of the item "budget" is shifted to Expertise on the PVP versions. All things being equal they should be... equal.

 

So then my question to you is this (repeated somewhat, but it stands): if I were to remove your expertise and give you that original stat back, would you complain?

 

Why would you, if so? Its all equal right?

 

So then why does expertise exist at all?

 

everybody can obtain it easy. where's your prob?

I have X time to spend on the game to achieve both PVP and PVE enjoyment out of it.

 

Expertise is the thing preventing me from enjoying both fully.

 

Whether you want to admit it or not it also hinders you, though I suppose if you have 60-80 hours a week you can dedicate to SWTOR you might not care and you'll just do the extra work required of you and take it up the... well.. you take what you're given and don't care if there is something better, basically.

 

You get the picture?

Edited January 9, 2012 by Skouros

[TheRealDestian]

Whether you want to admit it or not it also hinders you, though I suppose if you have 60-80 hours a week you can dedicate to SWTOR you might not care and you'll just do the extra work required of you and take it up the... well.. you take what you're given and don't care if there is something better, basically.

 

You get the picture?

 

Yep.

 

"You cannot kill that which has no life."

[fixit]

I scoff at how easy it apparently is to get PvP gear. I will remember this thread every time I open a champ bag and get nothing or a duplicate token. I have one champ piece out of 54 bags so far. Go me? I don't even bother buying centurian pieces cus they are a down grade to MODDED orange gear I got questing, yar.

 

Think its fine, PvP gear is for PvE. PvE gear is for PvE. It is possible to use one for the other but in the end if you want min/max: you better use the right gear for the job.

 

I would never use any this PvP gear in a raid, stat wise its terrible for it. So same for PvE gear?

 

edit. Why is there expertise? So I don't insta gib you, doing 14k+ in a matter of seconds. Be thankful its there once you get some. Oh and I am pretty sure if I had raid gear, I could do even more than that...LOL!

Edited January 9, 2012 by fixit

[TheRealDestian]

edit. Why is there expertise? So I don't insta gib you, doing 14k+ in a matter of seconds. Be thankful its there once you get some. Oh and I am pretty sure if I had raid gear, I could do even more than that...LOL!

 

Here's the thing...

 

Bliz added resilience to WoW because the scaling of player health vs. player DPS was completely ****ed. It was too late to do anything about it, so they added resilience (also to appease the whiners who complained bitterly that one kind of gear was easier to get than the other).

 

In essence, Blizzard added resilience to punish their playerbase by forcing them to play the endgame twice if they wanted to experience all of it.

 

BW could've avoided that screw-up by not making player DPS scale out of hand. Instead, they decided to copy Bliz's ****-up and add a PvP stat to the game, thus royally hosing anyone who can't afford to play this game 8 hours a day.

 

You can say "That's not the reason!" until you're blue in the face, but the simple fact is this: I only have enough time to play to stay competitive with ONE set of gear.

 

Ergo, I have to pick one or suck at both. GG.

Edited January 9, 2012 by TheRealDestian

[Skouros]

I would never use any this PvP gear in a raid, stat wise its terrible for it. So same for PvE gear?

 

edit. Why is there expertise? So I don't insta gib you, doing 14k+ in a matter of seconds. Be thankful its there once you get some. Oh and I am pretty sure if I had raid gear, I could do even more than that...LOL!

I don't have any, so you'll do more than that 14k+. You're getting both defensive AND offensive boost from Expertise, remember?

 

But why should you do more than that with the "raid gear"? I think you should not, it should be equal, or worse, from any perspective, right?

 

We're not arguing which is better for what here, we're arguing which is balanced and which is unbalancing the game.

 

If they put expertise on your gear, why don't they mirror that gear and make it for PVE. Instead of expertise, they give it "Mastery" which increases damage dealt and reduces damage taken in PVE (NPC's only).

 

Since that is the function of Expertise, to prevent you from getting gibbed in PVP, and without it you WILL get gibbed in PVP, why should not the same be true in PVE? Without it, you will get gibbed, without it you will not deal enough damage.

 

All things being equal, an equal stat for PVE should fit perfectly with this design concept.

 

So do you agree? Give PVE gear "Mastery" which acts just like expertise? It would only be fair and equal...

[TheRealDestian]

I still say it's safe to remove expertise in general.

 

Look at all the threads complaining about how hard it is to get PvP gear. Seems like they've already balanced it with PvE gearing rate.

[Skouros]

I still say it's safe to remove expertise in general.

 

Look at all the threads complaining about how hard it is to get PvP gear. Seems like they've already balanced it with PvE gearing rate.

Perhaps you're right, I thought it was pretty easy to get, but I may be wrong.

 

I absolutely stand by my perspective that expertise is unneeded, that if it IS needed there is a better solution, and if there is not a better solution, there is at least a FAIR solution to equalize PVE by giving it an equivalent stat to expertise.

 

I am out for a while. Thank you for contributing to my thread(s)!

[mrkab]

I don't know why people can't grasp the concept of no stat-inflation in PvP. In other words, PvE gear can progress as it normally does, but it doesn't affect PvP. How does that work? Well, instead of Expertise increasing your damage, healing, and defense by x% in PvP, you make it do those things in PvE instead. Now a Raider can have the most ****** gear for Raiding, that increases his output against PvE content, yet has the same effective stats in a PvP scenario.

 

PvPers instead would be rewarded cosmetic sets, PvP specific items and abilities, etc., anything that doesn't make them inherently more OP than anyone else. Skill will prevail.

 

I would vote for you.

[TheRealDestian]

I would vote for you.

 

Agreed.

[rainbowunicorns]

Yes, I have ulterior motives. I simply want people not to use their PVP gear in PVE.

 

Or... could it be that I want that PVP gear to be exactly the same as the PVE gear, so they can get gear however they want and have fun doing whatever type of gameplay they want?

 

I have no idea what I am talking about? Do you? Do you have a real argument why expertise needs to exist in the first place, or are you just going to argue that its implemented fairly, and that no change need be made?

 

I mean, if that is true, ok fine. But WHY is it there at all?

 

And WHY are the ways stats are implemented for PVP different than for PVE? Why can't PVP have Expertise and PVE have "Mastery" (identical, but only affecting PVE)? Why is PVE the "default" stats, and PVP is the special case?

 

PVP gear of equal tier has worse stats than PVE gear for PVE. PVP gear of a higher tier may have better stats than PVE gear of a lower tier. You should support this rather than oppose it, it provides your potential recruits with a source of gear that will help them be useful in their first raids, instead of being dragged through.

 

Expertise exists to soak item points from PVP gear so that it does not become best in slot (BIS) for PVE. A PVP item will only be best in slot for PVE if the maximum PVP tier ever becomes higher than the maximum raid tier, which is not currently the case.

[rainbowunicorns]

Funny... in my group the PVP geared players were the ones crying out first in voice chat that they had finished, and then rooted for us poor PVE geared players to finish up ours.

 

You do know that if you put the wrong type on the wrong "boss" in that fight they cannot handle it right? It's by type: healers have to be on one type, dps on another, and tanks on the correct ones. If you don't do that, it's very difficult.

 

Your PVP players are used to fighting things that hit back, and having to survive that. Your PVP players probably are not. I believe that "suck less" is the best advice you can give them.

[lokivoid]

A) Expertise is too powerful in its current form and needs to be toned down considerably.!

 

You do realize in full Champ gear you only get a total 11% modifier. If you had 3-slot pve gear you can get far better modifiers all be it more specialized.

 

This a lone invalidates your entire wall of text.

 

Expertise is fine, Learn how to slot your gear for a given role.

[Saeul]

I find a lot of irony in the original post because one of the primary reasons stats like expertise exist is because so called hardcore pve players will not tolerate pvp players having equivalent gear.

 

The opposite problem is pvp players not being satisfied with the advantage of skill over pve players. The idea that the winning team should have MORE advantage over the losing team after the match is kinda silly, to be honest.

[rainbowunicorns]

The opposite problem is pvp players not being satisfied with the advantage of skill over pve players. The idea that the winning team should have MORE advantage over the losing team after the match is kinda silly, to be honest.

 

If you think of the commendations as rewards instead of welfare cheques, it makes more sense. Winners often get paid better than losers, either on salary for their long-term success, or in bonuses for short-term success.

 

If you want some sort of in-game justifications:

Huttball: Two teams fighting in a show match.

Void star: "I came back with the data you wanted" vs. "Ya, the other guys got that super important data, but I tried like REALLY hard, so a little something foe my effort?"

Civil War: Taking control of an area that your faction wanted vs failing to take control of it, and losing a large troop transport in the process.

[Iakki]

Late response, didn't bother reading all the replies. Anyhow, the answer: NPC's won't be butt hurt if you roflstomp them wearing PvP gear, players will be butt hurt if you roflstomp them wearing PvE gear. Gg

[Canucked]

Pve gear DOES have stats that pvp gear does not, if you pay attention pve gear for a warrior will have more strength than pvp gear. Expertise makes up for this loss in pvp, where in a raid that pvp gear will be considerably weaker than pve gear since expertise only works on players.