Why are we never the squeaky wheel?

[NamShub]

I've only had positive experiences on Ebon Hawk. We have a strong community with many resources -- there are quite a few RP sign-ups on this forum.

 

When out questing I have been a part of walk-up RP, made new friends and /General has mostly been discussions of the zone or companion story lines.

 

RP servers, I believe, are one of those strange transactions where you get out only as much as you put in.

 

I get that you're not disturbed by Darth Pinkiepie and /general being a cesspool. I've had some good RP as well but, for me, the general level of crass players in just about every major location kills it for me. I'm not interested in testing the limits of how much I can ignore in order to RP on an RP server. If Bioware is unwilling to make any effort to support a playstyle as valid as raiding and pvp I don't see any reason to keep paying them once I've exhausted their story.

 

I've done pvp until I was sick of the "lol u mad bro" idiots. I've done progression raiding until I was sick of it. I don't want to have to wade through a mile of sh*t or test the limits of the ignore list just to have a reasonable RP experience.

 

Honestly, we're not even a month out from launch and I'm already considering just how long I want to keep playing this game, not because of the game but because of the other players.

[TrevNYC]

I get that you're not disturbed by Darth Pinkiepie and /general being a cesspool. I've had some good RP as well but, for me, the general level of crass players in just about every major location kills it for me. I'm not interested in testing the limits of how much I can ignore in order to RP on an RP server. If Bioware is unwilling to make any effort to support a playstyle as valid as raiding and pvp I don't see any reason to keep paying them once I've exhausted their story.

 

I truly am sorry that you aren't enjoying yourself in game as much as you could, but I don't know that you ever will if you're going to equate "not doing everything I ask immediately" with "not making any effort."

 

They are making changes to support RP, and they are a high priority for the devs at that. It just so happens that PvE/PvP players might also benefit from those changes. It seems kinda selfish to only count efforts that don't apply to any other players besides RPers, assuming that such things even exist.

[Kharnis]

I get that you're not disturbed by Darth Pinkiepie and /general being a cesspool. I've had some good RP as well but, for me, the general level of crass players in just about every major location kills it for me. I'm not interested in testing the limits of how much I can ignore in order to RP on an RP server. If Bioware is unwilling to make any effort to support a playstyle as valid as raiding and pvp I don't see any reason to keep paying them once I've exhausted their story.

 

I've done pvp until I was sick of the "lol u mad bro" idiots. I've done progression raiding until I was sick of it. I don't want to have to wade through a mile of sh*t or test the limits of the ignore list just to have a reasonable RP experience.

 

Honestly, we're not even a month out from launch and I'm already considering just how long I want to keep playing this game, not because of the game but because of the other players.

 

They have already said they are bringing in chat bubbles. They have already said they're going to make chairs sittable. They have already said they are bringing in mini-games such as pazaak. They have already said they are bringing in guild capital ships. They have already said they're expanding the mod system to have orange gear be viable at endgame.

 

What more can they possibly do for you?

[Darth_Slaine]

I get that you're not disturbed by Darth Pinkiepie and /general being a cesspool. I've had some good RP as well but, for me, the general level of crass players in just about every major location kills it for me. I'm not interested in testing the limits of how much I can ignore in order to RP on an RP server. If Bioware is unwilling to make any effort to support a playstyle as valid as raiding and pvp I don't see any reason to keep paying them once I've exhausted their story.

 

I've done pvp until I was sick of the "lol u mad bro" idiots. I've done progression raiding until I was sick of it. I don't want to have to wade through a mile of sh*t or test the limits of the ignore list just to have a reasonable RP experience.

 

Honestly, we're not even a month out from launch and I'm already considering just how long I want to keep playing this game, not because of the game but because of the other players.

 

 

What more can they possibly do for you?

 

Kharnis asks a reasonable question.

 

I think the answer is related to what I said in an earlier post -- PVP and PVE problems are with game mechanics, while many of the problems some RPers complain about are with the ways other people enjoy the game.

 

Bioware cannot force people to play the game the way you want them to. It cannot make people discuss the things you want to discuss in /General and, for what it is worth, I have never seen a General conversation resemble anything close to a "cesspool".

 

If players playing the game is the source of your problem, then you probably should consider unsubscribing because that will always be part of an MMORPG.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Darth_Slaine

[Hrisskar]

If players playing the game is the source of your problem, then you probably should consider unsubscribing because that will always be part of an MMORPG.

 

A part of the internet in general, truth be told.

[NamShub]

They have already said they are bringing in chat bubbles. They have already said they're going to make chairs sittable. They have already said they are bringing in mini-games such as pazaak. They have already said they are bringing in guild capital ships. They have already said they're expanding the mod system to have orange gear be viable at endgame.

 

What more can they possibly do for you?

 

None of those make my list as required RP features. Chat bubbles are a "nice to have". I really only have one ask: server moderation.

 

Strangely enough, other than moderation, the one feature that would help RP for me would be a good LFG directory. If I didn't have to keep /general up to identify who wants to group I could just close the channel entirely and not have to read the Chuck Norris jokes, An*l [Gas Cylinder] comments, the play by play of whatever football game happens to be on at that moment, or a thirty minute debate on whether the statement "capes r [three letter word for happy]" is a homophobic pejoritive.

 

I honestly should probably stop reading the RP forum as well because half of the participants sound as if they have Stockholm Syndrome. The reason the pvp community gets what they want is that they gripe and moan and metaphorically threaten to start overturning cars and setting them on fire. The RP community, in contrast, is so concerned with appearing mature and rational that their demands are as forceful as an invitation to tea and the list of requests may as well start with "hit me again, Ike, and put some stank on it".

Edited January 11, 2012 by NamShub

[NamShub]

A part of the internet in general, truth be told.

 

I expect the internet in general to be a bunch of gibbering morons repeating the latest meme so it doesn't upset me when it is exactly that. I don't have a problem with that. I don't expect /b/ to be any different than it is. The disconnect is that when Bioware labeled a server as RP I made the mistake of thinking they might actually put as much effort in maintaining an RP environment as they do in purging the forums of posts. I know it's my own fault for believing there might be some effort support the RP player base. It just goes to show that the Greeks knew what they were talking about when they told the story of Pandora's Box and how the last thing out of it was Hope.

[yutrio]

I expect the internet in general to be a bunch of gibbering morons repeating the latest meme so it doesn't upset me when it is exactly that. I don't have a problem with that. I don't expect /b/ to be any different than it is. The disconnect is that when Bioware labeled a server as RP I made the mistake of thinking they might actually put as much effort in maintaining an RP environment as they do in purging the forums of posts. I know it's my own fault for believing there might be some effort support the RP player base. It just goes to show that the Greeks knew what they were talking about when they told the story of Pandora's Box and how the last thing out of it was Hope.

 

Expecting any company to monitor and regulate their RP servers is considered a pipe's dream. It would require too much manpower and resources on their end, when said resources can be put towards developing new features for the game.

 

RPers have always been on their own as far as maintaining a RP-friendly atmosphere, for better or for worse. And, honestly I don't really see that policy changing anytime soon.

[Hrisskar]

The disconnect is that when Bioware labeled a server as RP I made the mistake of thinking they might actually put as much effort in maintaining an RP environment as they do in purging the forums of posts.

 

There is your problem. Bioware did not intend roleplaying servers to be some form of "Promised Land" for your personal interpretation of what constitutes proper roleplay. Why did you expect them to?

 

The rules as they stand are fair and rational decisions on Bioware's part.

[NamShub]

There is your problem. Bioware did not intend roleplaying servers to be some form of "Promised Land" for your personal interpretation of what constitutes proper roleplay. Why did you expect them to?

 

The rules as they stand are fair and rational decisions on Bioware's part.

 

They are business decisions so it's a matter of money rather than fair or rational. Bioware has decided that the additional cost of enforcing something as basic as naming rules on an RP server and periodically moderating /general in the major cities isn't necessary to keep the RP community as paying customers. The consequence of this is that I'll probably play TOR long enough to play through the story content and operations and then move on. Where I played EQ and WoW for years, I'll probably play TOR for months.

 

Also, don't continue to put forward the straw man that I want RP to be moderated. I simply want a slightly more restrictive naming policy on RP servers and /general kept to in game topics. All I'm asking for is not to have to look at Lord Rainbow'Dash talking about the Mariners game in /general. I don't think that's unreasonable but if that's too much for Bioware I can always vote with my feet.

 

Honestly, I don't blame Bioware so much as I blame gamers such as yourself and Darth_Whatever. Rather than get behind a more active moderation of servers you let Bioware know that you're ok with the status quo. You've become so focused on how much you can put up with in order to RP you no longer look at what the RP environment could be let alone demand it. Bioware knows you'll keep coming back if they throw you a few scraps and don't slap you too hard.

Edited January 11, 2012 by NamShub

[Synche]

You're outnumbered. Severely.

 

Every second spent dealing with you is something that the majority of the player base doesn't get.

[NamShub]

You're outnumbered. Severely.

 

Every second spent dealing with you is something that the majority of the player base doesn't get.

 

The other side of that coin is that RP players are far less demanding in terms of developer generated content and represent the most loyal player base.

 

• PvP requires constant balance, tweaks, gear and addition of new warzones.
  
• PvE requires frequent addition of new raids and other end game content.
  
• RP requires... chat bubbles and a little customer support.
  

 

A few support reps costs a lot less than developer and graphic design time.

[Darth_Slaine]

They are business decisions so it's a matter of money rather than fair or rational. Bioware has decided that the additional cost of enforcing something as basic as naming rules on an RP server and periodically moderating /general in the major cities isn't necessary to keep the RP community as paying customers. The consequence of this is that I'll probably play TOR long enough to play through the story content and operations and then move on. Where I played EQ and WoW for years, I'll probably play TOR for months.

 

Also, don't continue to put forward the straw man that I want RP to be moderated. I simply want a slightly more restrictive naming policy on RP servers and /general kept to in game topics. All I'm asking for is not to have to look at Lord Rainbow'Dash talking about the Mariners game in /general. I don't think that's unreasonable but if that's too much for Bioware I can always vote with my feet.

 

Honestly, I don't blame Bioware so much as I blame gamers such as yourself and Darth_Whatever. Rather than get behind a more active moderation of servers you let Bioware know that you're ok with the status quo. You've become so focused on how much you can put up with in order to RP you no longer look at what the RP environment could be let alone demand it. Bioware knows you'll keep coming back if they throw you a few scraps and don't slap you too hard.

 

You complain about lack of moderation and enforcement of rules... that you admit do not exist. Moderation should be used to prevent malicious behavior, which as far as I can tell, is what is happening. They have done a good job of removing racist and offensive names quickly.

 

As silly or outside-the-box names are not against the rules, and there is no consensus within the RP community about the "danger" they pose, it makes sense that Bioware is not tripping over itself to moderate them.

 

Discussing a Mariner's game in /General, an OOC channel, also does not seem like it is crying out for moderation. How does that impact anyone's gameplay? As fun as Star Wars may be, people do not need to discuss it at all times.

 

The reason that your RP requests are not acted on by Bioware is that it is impractical and unfair to make a rule saying "everything other players do must be acceptable to random RPer X666754-J."

[Aethyriel]

Simply a business decision... look at it this way;

 

Let's say that 10% of all players play on RP servers. Of those 10% I'd say the majority still does flashhpoints or pvp and raids etc (or am I mistaken here?). Now the other 90% of the playerbase either are eager to participate in any form of challenging pve content (raids/Fps and less chal. stuff like dailies, crafting etc, you get the point) or play PvP.

 

Now.. I don't really know what the RP community wants and how that would affect non-rp servers, but if it does not provide anything interesting for 90% of the playerbase (+ the Rpers that also like the same pve/pvp conent as above players) than there is absolutely no reason to work for a max. of 10% of the playerbase when you can "make much more people happier/keep them subscribed".

 

There is no profit in it... now if this is just about naming policies on Rp servers or general behavior that one should have on a RP server (so it is tied with customer support then you probably have been heard and they will do something about it as soon as they get a hold of customer support altogether because right now it's just nowhere near being half decent).

[NamShub]

You complain about lack of moderation and enforcement of rules... that you admit do not exist. Moderation should be used to prevent malicious behavior, which as far as I can tell, is what is happening. They have done a good job of removing racist and offensive names quickly.

 

That's because the failure to act on racist or offensive names may be legally actionable. It's the lowest common denominator and not specific to RP servers. Bioware would do the same if there were no RP servers at all.

 

As silly or outside-the-box names are not against the rules, and there is no consensus within the RP community about the "danger" they pose, it makes sense that Bioware is not tripping over itself to moderate them.

 

If you can't log into a server starting zone and know within five minutes of watching /general and running around whether you're on an RP server or not, you don't have RP servers.

 

From your earlier posts, I know you're ridiculously focused on the letter of the existing rules but those are rules for all servers. I'm proposing slightly stricter rules for RP servers such that they are not simply "PvE servers where RP players tend to go" but actually supportive of an immersive RP experience.

 

I know, that's actually asking for something from Bioware in return for my subscription dollars. How incredibly presumptuous of me. I should turn off /general and hide in a cantina like a good RPer who knows his place.

 

Discussing a Mariner's game in /General, an OOC channel, also does not seem like it is crying out for moderation. How does that impact anyone's gameplay? As fun as Star Wars may be, people do not need to discuss it at all times.

 

So apparently asking that /general be game related is now too much? I don't care about OOC in /general, I just want /general to be game related.

 

The reason that your RP requests are not acted on by Bioware is that it is impractical and unfair to make a rule saying "everything other players do must be acceptable to random RPer X666754-J."

 

No, the reason they aren't acted on is that Bioware knows that you're a cheap date and that you'll put out no matter how they treat you.

 

I was thinking last night about why so few people RP in starting zones. I talked to a few people on Korriban and Ord Mantell and everyone seemed to be of the opinion that you have to level to about 30 and get away from the starting zones if you wanted to really get into RP. Why is that? Why shouldn't people expect RP starting at level 1 from all players on an RP server? How many potential RPers never get started because they don't seen anything in the first two planets that distinguishes an RP server from standard PvE?

[Hrisskar]

What does an out-of-character General chat have to do with roleplay? Are our holy roleplayer eyes so offended by this unrelated channel (Which we can turn off), and the silly names on it, that we simply cannot roleplay? The horror!

 

I was thinking last night about why so few people RP in starting zones. I talked to a few people on Korriban and Ord Mantell and everyone seemed to be of the opinion that you have to level to about 30 and get away from the starting zones if you wanted to really get into RP. Why is that? Why shouldn't people expect RP starting at level 1 from all players on an RP server? How many potential RPers never get started because they don't seen anything in the first two planets that distinguishes an RP server from standard PvE?

 

That's their fault for not roleplaying there. I, myself, fully intend to make good use of Tython and Ord Mantell in the hopes of grabbing the interest of potential converts.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Hrisskar

[NamShub]

There is no profit in it... now if this is just about naming policies on Rp servers or general behavior that one should have on a RP server (so it is tied with customer support then you probably have been heard and they will do something about it as soon as they get a hold of customer support altogether because right now it's just nowhere near being half decent).

 

If previous games are any indication, customer support will never be any better than it is now. My interactions with customer support so far regarding a guild management issue have led me to believe that customer support has little understanding of game mechanics and no idea how game systems work. They're polite but generally worthless when not working from a script.

[NamShub]

What does an out-of-character General chat have to do with roleplay? Are our holy roleplayer eyes so offended by this unrelated channel (Which we can turn off), and the silly names on it, that we simply cannot roleplay? The horror!

 

I wish I could turn it off but I have to frequently dip into /general if I want to find a group as the lfg system is feature poor to the point of nonexistance. I also, believe it or not, like to help people who are having difficulty finding groups for their missions which means that I keep /general up.

 

Heaven forbid that I'd like in game chat to be about the game.

 

I'll be sure to swing by Trask Ulgo to kick off political and religious discussions in /general so you can feel the love.

[Hrisskar]

I'll be sure to swing by Trask Ulgo to kick off political and religious discussions in /general so you can feel the love.

 

You're welcome to try - goodness knows others have. A pity Traskers have the maturity not to feed the trolls, eh? I wish I could empathise with your down-trodden self, but that's just not the reality.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Hrisskar

[SelinaH]

Honestly, I don't blame Bioware so much as I blame gamers such as yourself and Darth_Whatever. Rather than get behind a more active moderation of servers you let Bioware know that you're ok with the status quo. You've become so focused on how much you can put up with in order to RP you no longer look at what the RP environment could be let alone demand it. Bioware knows you'll keep coming back if they throw you a few scraps and don't slap you too hard.

 

I'm not focused on how much I can "put up with in order to RP." I'm concerned with the very real possibility that any additional restrictions implemented will impact other players' ability to create and flesh out the character concepts they're interested in - including my own, and I'm an RPer. There are people clamoring for naming "smell tests" (based on their own personal and highly subjective opinion of what constitutes an RP name) and new rules that basically boil down to "Names can't be words, ever." These are changes that I feel we can do without - that we *must* do without.

 

In other words, I'm not "putting up with" BW's policies in this regard. I'm against the addition of any unreasonably strict and arbitrary rules that have the potential to harm valid and non-infringing character concepts and playstyles in order to quell the angry mutterings of a select group of RPers. I'm all for swift enforcement against true griefing and harassment of RPers for their choice of playstyle ("breaking my immersion" does NOT fall under this category). I'm all for quality-of-life additions, and we're slated to get some, which is great. More would be even better: Personally, I'd love to see more character and ship customization options (including the ability to update one's appearance).

 

But you're not asking for shinies; you're asking the devs to overhaul community dynamics. And I just don't see them trying to do that.

 

The reason that your RP requests are not acted on by Bioware is that it is impractical and unfair to make a rule saying "everything other players do must be acceptable to random RPer X666754-J."

 

This, right here.

[Hrisskar]

I'm not focused on how much I can "put up with in order to RP." I'm concerned with the very real possibility that any additional restrictions implemented will impact other players' ability to create and flesh out the character concepts they're interested in - including my own, and I'm an RPer. There are people clamoring for naming "smell tests" (based on their own personal and highly subjective opinion of what constitutes an RP name) and new rules that basically boil down to "Names can't be words, ever." These are changes that I feel we can do without - that we *must* do without.

 

In other words, I'm not "putting up with" BW's policies in this regard. I'm against the addition of any unreasonably strict and arbitrary rules that have the potential to harm valid and non-infringing character concepts and playstyles in order to quell the angry mutterings of a select group of RPers. I'm all for swift enforcement against true griefing and harassment of RPers for their choice of playstyle ("breaking my immersion" does NOT fall under this category). I'm all for quality-of-life additions, and we're slated to get some, which is great. More would be even better: Personally, I'd love to see more character and ship customization options (including the ability to update one's appearance).

 

But you're not asking for shinies; you're asking the devs to overhaul community dynamics. And I just don't see them trying to do that.

 

Beautifully put.

[Zavia]

I just saw the response from the mod so will delete my post because it was in response to a post on naming. I'll add any future posts on naming to the appropriate thread as the mod asked. My apologies. Edited January 11, 2012 by Zavia

[Zavia]

How is it a myth? The evidence is in the naming threads - we *don't* always agree with each other. Sure, there's a fair amount of consensus on a number of issues, and those are the places where additions may be more likely. I don't see anyone maintaining that RPers shouldn't get anything because the community isn't big enough. The reality, however, is that the vast majority of improvements are going to be slated for PvE mechanics - because the vast majority of players engage in some form of PvE play.

 

 

 

It's easy to "break" PvP or to leave it in such an unbalanced state that fewer and fewer people will participate. It's not so easy to make RP a playstyle that's undesirable or flat-out unplayable to its intended audience. Unfortunately for us, PvP is a playstyle that, IME, has tended to require constant and vigilant maintenance from the development team, lest it implode. We don't normally require that kind of dev attention just to be able to play. Unless chat or emotes get completely borked, we can usually manage to get by. Sadly, this also puts us lower on the priority scale, since many of the things we tend to ask for fall under quality-of-life improvements rather than outright fixes or rebalancing passes.

 

Mind you, I'm not saying it *should* be this way, just that it's a plausible explanation for why there might be disparities in how community wishlists are addressed. I don't buy the argument that we get shafted because we're just not loud enough. I think we're plenty loud. But (gross generalizations follow here) RPers tend to stick around more for community than for shinies; PvPers leave when their game gets unfun, unbalanced or just plain old hat. Guess where the attention goes?

 

 

The point that you're missing is that no playstyle a consensus on anything so why must that somehow become a stumbling block for RP?

 

The myth is that there has to be some consensus before we can get anything done.

 

And it's my experience that we do not stand up for ourselves while other playstyles do, which is why we get scraps if even that much. Just look at any forum. ANY MMO forum for proof. You'll see thread after thread after thread from PvPers who want this or who what that, and you'll see the same for PvE. In the thread you will not see all the other PvPers say yes we want this but will see differing opinions, some who agree and some who don't. That something needs to be changed or added is obvious from the attention "X" topic gets, which is how developers often take up an issue for consideration.

 

Players may not get that pink pony with purple pokadots that the OP of a hot topic thread says is needed, but the community might get several different pony-like creatures with nice coloring.

 

And note I'm not saying anything else like bugs, balance, exploits, or things like server maintenance should be pushed to the back. That would be silly to expect. I'm only talking content.

[Kolbenito]

I'm not understanding your point on PvP realms, sorry. How are PvP realms not custom realms, or did I misunderstand? That they are similar to other realms is understandable because all realms have the same basic format. Its the purpose by design that makes PvP realms custom. Taking that into account, if one sees "RP realm" it's not unreasonable to expect the same as we see for PvP realms, but that is not the case in SWTOR, so in that context, I think it's understandable that some are upset.

 

Name enforcement might be the only thing I could see them adding to an RP/RP-PVP realm but it's a sticky issue and many people can think of a good reason for someone to RP a name like "Blade" in star wars..

 

I really fail to understand why RP realms need to have a whole other set of rules and stipulations for people to enjoy roleplaying. I roleplay, I PVP, I play on an RP-PVP realm and although there are some things that would be nice to have I don't see that any of it is "required" before I can enjoy doing either.

 

I guess I just see things differently. All you really get with a PVP realm is contested zones, otherwise the game is exactly the same. What main feature would an RP realm have that a PVE or normal PVP realm doesn't?

 

As I have said numerous times there is nothing wrong with asking for things.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Kolbenito

[SelinaH]

The point that you're missing is that no playstyle a consensus on anything so why must that somehow become a stumbling block for RP?

 

The myth is that there has to be some consensus before we can get anything done.

 

Consensus certainly makes it easier for the devs to look at something and go, "We should add this," though. Especially when they're trying to predict what improvements will provide the best return on their investment.

 

You'll see thread after thread after thread from PvPers who want this or who what that, and you'll see the same for PvE. In the thread you will not see all the other PvPers say yes we want this but will see differing opinions, some who agree and some who don't. That something needs to be changed or added is obvious from the attention "X" topic gets, which is how developers often take up an issue for consideration.

 

When it comes to pure mechanics, BioWare is going to do what the development team feels is best for the game; they'll rebalance and tweak things in order to maintain their vision of fun and fairness. In these cases, community consensus plays a smaller role. It's less about agreement than about bringing problems to BW's attention. The devs may even go against the majority opinion in order to implement fixes that they feel are necessary for the long-term health of the game; we've seen this before in other games, where some changes are quite poorly received by the playerbase.

 

When it's a pure quality-of-life addition, especially one with the potential for adverse side effects, I suspect that even PvPers are going to need to reach a certain level of agreement before the devs will look at adding it in.

 

And note I'm not saying anything else like bugs, balance, exploits, or things like server maintenance should be pushed to the back. That would be silly to expect. I'm only talking content.

 

Insofar as we're discussing pure content/QoL additions as opposed to something sticky like RP server moderation, I'd argue that consensus may be "louder" and therefore more audible to the developer's ear, or perhaps it's simply that consensus in the RP community tends to supply the devs with proof of a certain critical mass of opinion, above which they're more willing to consider adding things that they see as appealing to a sizable number of players.

 

I do think that when it comes to issues like additions to RP server rules and enforcement, consensus is going to play a much larger role (assuming, of course, that the devs are A)willing to consider such changes but are B) nevertheless satisfied with the status quo).