Hero Engine: why?

[Gabrandt]

Seriously. Blizzard built an engine to fit their game, they're billions (trillions yet?) richer. You didn't, and you're missing out on Billions in part due to this decision.

Why?

 

Incorrect.

 

World of Warcraft was built on a salvaged engine built for Warhammer.

[Mannic]

Incorrect.

 

World of Warcraft was built on a salvaged engine built for Warhammer.

 

Hey look. Another factoid magically produced from the herd with no backing or basis in reality.

[Draemos]

Bioware has never made good engines themselves, and making an engine takes years. They also weren't owned by EA when they started development on TOR

[smexymage]

Bioware said they have heavily modded the Hero engine to the point it doesn't resemble much of the original.

 

I think the game will mature and improve over time, there are always ways to improve and get around software issue if you give it proper care and attention.

 

I am not worried.

[lostancient]

AMEN I have a good gaming pc

 

and everything is slow loading, major lag if you play for long time due to memory leak

 

I play a lot, being disabled it allows it haha, but after 3 hours of gameplay the game is eating over 2 gigs of ram and slows to a crawl.

 

oh and don't log out using quit button in game it takes FOREVER for the game client to quit.

 

 

what I do is alt tab, open task manager and end task on swtor.exe then the game instantly exits.

 

 

then i relog for another 3 hours of gameplay before the memory leak monster eats it all up again.

 

 

and this is on a SSD hard drive.

 

 

I have same problems as you... This is just nightmare... :S

[FrankSpencer]

There's so much misinformation in this thread it's unreal. Now, I may not be a AAA game developer but I have been teaching Software Engineering and Games Development for the last 11 years and there are a great many points that are being overlooked, all in favour of nay-saying and engine bashing based primarily on GFX and the (admittedly terrible) ability activation lag.

 

1) The engine is customised from stock. This means the ability lag caused by waiting for an animation to finish before starting the new one can be fixed. This does not mean however that it will be fixed, the whole animation style and flow from one move to another is quite possibly an active design decision made around the game's aesthetics. What could happen here is that some moves will interrupt animations (primarily interrupts and other off-GCD abilities) and others won't - but we shall have to see BioWare's response when it comes.

 

2) The GFX in this game are, like WoW, highly stylised. This is a design decision modelled on the animated series and has most likely been made to allow the GFX to run smoothly on lower end systems with as little loss of quality as possible. On a personal note: I really do quite like the art style.

 

3) Memory leaks: can and will be fixed eventually, see point 1.

 

4) GFX are not the be-all and end-all of the reasons to choose a game engine. Server architecture, network useage, asset pipeline, development tools and a whole slew of other factors need to be assessed. If you think BioWare chose the Hero Engine based purely on a sales pitch of "Hey we can all play together in a big sandbox to make a game!" then you are being, quite frankly, ignorant. Did a little test the other day, in 10 hours of constant gameplay the network useage added up to just under 125Mb combined upstream and downstream, this alone is a remarkable figure! It worked out averaging 1.4kBps down and 600Bps up over the play session, so theoretically (discounting other issues related to the hardware) you could play this game on a 56.6k modem.

 

But, as with all MMORPG's since time began, when there is a public forum to discuss the game there will be people ringing the death knell and saying the game is doomed, the engine sucks and worst "fix it now or I will quit". You know what, for the good of the game and the community why don't you save your post and sod off. Leave the game to those of us that want to play the game and have fun!

[siegedeluxe]

+1

 

to the amount of stupid in this thread.

[Blackweb]

I'm loving the game on principle, I'd love any star wars mmo attempt and I think it looks decent (with aa on, without it's disgusting to look at), but I agree the engine is horrible. You get the feeling that everything (people, buildings, speeders etc.) can break apart anytime and there are small lags constantly (NOT due to latency) where your companions, your char and pretty much everything flies around due to some strange delay that doesn't make sense.

 

Ye I would have loved if it had the weight and feel of a "heavy" working world, but it just doesn't at all, it feels alot like playing STO but slightly better (not enough though). The static feel of everything doesn't make it feel very immersive, sadly.

 

EDIT: I won't stop playing this game and I'm not saying it's doomed in any way, but I do think a fair share will "go back to wow" simply due to how much more "stable" their game feels. Just an honest opinion.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Blackweb

[TheHauntingBard]

The technical aspect why and who is interesting to discuss but it's not something for this forum.

My respect to all people who are well studied programmers but well this forum is full of trolls and people that are full of them selves, so pardon me if I don't take every ones word for it.

 

I did some programming myself during education but It was more the necessary basics as a part of a different study, I wouldn't claim that I know the fine points this engine and Biowares decision or the complexity of coding.

 

 

How ever what I can point out is this.

 

MMO's tend to be CPU depended, this translates into that the CPU has a big impact on your FPS.

 

Now think of it like how the average player experiences this engine.

 

 

1: It doesn't support dual/quad cores (even though Bioware stated that SWTOR would) this automatically means a FPS loss.

This is a common question asked by people, why is the FPS bad well this a part of the reason.

 

 

2: Another thing is people asking why the loading screens a long.

Well no matter if you use a SDD and have a fast computer the loading screens are pretty long.

This has also something to do with the hero engine.

 

 

3: Character responsiveness, basically the choppy gameplay.

Well I don't know if it is hero engine related so I can't point a finger.

Seen some claims here and there.

What I can say is that I've seen this done much better.

 

 

4: No DX 10/11 , DX 10 has been out for a long time DX11 improves FPS.

This is engine related.

The lack of AA and other eye candy is something I will leave in the middle.

 

 

Point is many problems people run into are because of the engine choice.

Now I am not stating that making their own engine that would be tuned to their MMO needs would have been a better option financially and time wise.

 

I'm just stating that this engine has limitations and does cause some problems.

Edited January 5, 2012 by TheHauntingBard

[Chikai]

1: It doesn't support dual/quad cores (even though Bioware stated that SWTOR would) this automatically means a FPS loss.

This is a common question asked by people, why is the FPS bad well this a part of the reason.

 

And right they were to say so, SWTOR does support up to 4 cores.

[SySnootles]

Incorrect.

 

World of Warcraft was built on a salvaged engine built for Warhammer.

 

You make no sense.

[lllSike]

How long has it been since the game came out?

We gotta give it some time....

How many of you played Warcraft from day one? You should of seen the issues wow had when it started. WoW is where it is today due to years of refining.

 

Only time will tell....

 

To the people saying there is no hope.... lol

[ProJarrod]

How long has it been since the game came out?

We gotta give it some time....

How many of you played Warcraft from day one? You should of seen the issues wow had when it started. WoW is where it is today due to years of refining.

 

Only time will tell....

 

To the people saying there is no hope.... lol

 

Ya guys! remember when WoW swaped there core engine? YA!

[TheHauntingBard]

Ya guys! remember when WoW swaped there core engine? YA!

 

M8 plz, you can like recode an engine so fast these days.

Adding DX 10/11 support and proper multi core optimization is cake bro.

Just you wait bro,Bioware will just like operate this engine dude and it will be blasting!!!!.

Edited January 5, 2012 by TheHauntingBard

[Monthigos]

you chose the lazy way

 

I've discerned in my years of forum dwelling that game devs are actually quite lazy. At least that's what the average forum-goer believes.

[Chikai]

M8 plz, you can like recode an engine so fast these days.

Adding DX 10/11 support and proper multi core optimization is cake bro.

Just you wait bro,Bioware will just like operate this engine dude and it will be blasting!!!!.

 

What I understood he said was that the engine and game will be developed to further meet the needs of ridicilous people who want stuff like DX10 and DX11 just because they're higher in numbers than DX9.

You do know that HeroEngine can be extended for DX10/11 support if your license allows you to do such bending right?

[lllSike]

Ya guys! remember when WoW swaped there core engine? YA!

 

Honestly if they cant resolve these game breaking issues, then the game will fail. But, it is illogical to go around spreading chaos when nothing is certain. Maybe wow did not have a problem as "big" as this ,but how do you know it's unsolvable? How do you know bio ware wont be able to solve this? You mad? Yea you mad ~Swag~

[TheHauntingBard]

What I understood he said was that the engine and game will be developed to further meet the needs of ridicilous people who want stuff like DX10 and DX11 just because they're higher in numbers than DX9.

You do know that HeroEngine can be extended for DX10/11 support if your license allows you to do such bending right?

 

I'm more jesting about that adding all these features , itwill take a lot of modifications and time.

Truth is if they wanted people to experience better graphics and smooth gameplay they would have already added most of these things, same goes for the FPS issues.

 

If they wanted better CPU optimization they would have already done so .

This game has been in the make for a while, they knew the down sides of this engine and went for it.

 

The thing is this is a MMO and what matters are the first 6 months.

No one cares that BW may fix things 2 years from here, chances are that this game won't make two years because a lot of basic features and issues have yet to been addressed.

 

 

 

Edit:

 

People can take WOW as an example of ' well they added it later'.

That's because Blizzard had a smaller budget and they never expected the game to become that successful.

Edited January 5, 2012 by TheHauntingBard

[ArmchairMagpie]

The choice of the engine may be dated by today's standard but when the choice was made neither multi-threaded engine design nor the finer aspects of a modern MMORPG were things that mattered at that time. The choice is a historical one and whilst new engines are available it doesn't mean you can just switch over because each engine differs in its content and deployment structure.

 

I think the primary choice wasn't however its graphical prowess but the availability of and readiness for integrated technologies such as SpeedTree, FMOD,Scaleform Gfx etc. and the fact that it offered flexible world creation tools and technologies. From a MMO developer standpoint who does wish to cut costs that is surely a way to choose an engine.

 

Lastly I wouldn't lose my mind over it not being multi-threaded or not, multi-threading isn't an instant-win because it as well requires optimization as well - as it happens, the two popular CPU manufacturers also use different multi-core design - and the engine needs to feature the architectural features to warrant that in first place.

 

Whether they will get to write their own new engine or switch over to another one depends on whether they have exhausted their possibilities and abilities with the current one. It won't however be a week's job as people hope, can easily take up to half or entire year.

Edited January 5, 2012 by ArmchairMagpie

[Chikai]

I'm more jesting about that adding all these features , itwill take a lot of modifications and time.

Truth is if they wanted people to experience better graphics and smooth gameplay they would have already added most of these things, same goes for the FPS issues.

 

If they wanted better CPU optimization they would have already done so .

This game has been in the make for a while, they knew the down sides of this engine and went for it.

 

The thing is this is a MMO and what matters are the first 6 months.

No one cares BW might fix things 2 years from here, chances are that this game won't make that .

 

I'm sure Bioware wants the engine to be more flexible when it comes to CPU but it already runs RELATIVELY well and the main focus should be in content and development of the game - players growing bored of content is more critical than fairly low FPS situationally ( that doesn't even apply to everyone ).

 

If the six first months matters, it would be very important to have longetivity of the content - which is what they are obviously doing.

 

Non-critical performance (low FPS doesn't kill the game, no matter what people say on the forums, I endure 15 fps in warzones because I know it'll be addressed later on) fixes can come afterwards.

 

The chances that this game won't make 2 years as you say are very slim, it's got a huge player base no matter how you look at it and the whiners about the state of the game on forums is just a small fraction of this population, majority stays silent and plays the game (or quit, whatever they like).

 

Edit: MUCH smaller MMO's have been out for years and still kicking with a monthly fee, take EVE Online for a nice example of this.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Chikai

[Treborbob]

From what I have read online, it basically is Biowares engine. They used HeroEngine because they'd worked together before, and Bioware already has some employees that worked at HeroEngine. Bioware were the first licensee of the engine too.

 

It's just the base for building MMO's, it's not a ready made game (HeroCloud appears to be a bit different in that respect) By the looks of it you are free to change and enhance the base code as you wish, and I imagine Bioware have heavily modified the base engine from what Hero actually gave them.

 

Just a bit of reading and research will answer all your questions, no need to fill a thread with speculation and conjecture.

[TheHauntingBard]

I'm sure Bioware wants the engine to be more flexible when it comes to CPU but it already runs RELATIVELY well and the main focus should be in content and development of the game - players growing bored of content is more critical than fairly low FPS situationally ( that doesn't even apply to everyone ).

 

Everything is relative, in the end performance is opinion based.

Though I find it sad that many people getting suckered in by buying a new rig to run a game while it isn't their rig just the poor optimization.

Though I do agree with you that better content/fixing bugs and adding all those promised features is atm more important than optimizing performance.

How ever I do think they could have done a better job.

 

 

Slightly side tracking here.

Has been done quite some times, companies bragging about how good the game runs and what type of GFX card you need to run it smoothly but once the game is out you just notice how poorly it is optimized.

 

Another side track:

 

Yes I am aware AMD and intel aren't making it any easier for the gaming industry.

How ever if this game was meant to last for a long time they could have gone for it.

 

main focus should be in content and development of the game

 

Some one stated this in a Q&A with SR and he basically brushed it off with that this isn't what most players want, and it isn't the thing they 'should' focus on.

 

I 100% agree with you that this is important though.

Question is how much does this engine limit let's say PVP and PVE design.

[SuberBaird]

ooh.. to bad we dont have the frostbite engine from BF3 now that would make for a killer MMO (drooling)

 

lol and it would kill any PC you tried to run it on...

[Corwingeorge]

From what I have read online, it basically is Biowares engine. They used HeroEngine because they'd worked together before, and Bioware already has some employees that worked at HeroEngine. Bioware were the first licensee of the engine too.

 

It's just the base for building MMO's, it's not a ready made game (HeroCloud appears to be a bit different in that respect) By the looks of it you are free to change and enhance the base code as you wish, and I imagine Bioware have heavily modified the base engine from what Hero actually gave them.

 

Just a bit of reading and research will answer all your questions, no need to fill a thread with speculation and conjecture.

 

 

^speculation and conjecture

[Chikai]

Question is how much does this engine limit let's say PVP and PVE design.

It's a flexible engine even in it's free to use mode, I've had a blast designing encounters for my own pleasure on HeroEngine. Bioware has the whole engine in their hands to extend, it'll turn out just fine...

 

We're all just too impatient