I'm scratching my head at some of these "Light" choices

[Centra]

There are a lot of instances where the writers have plainly lost sight of what the light and dark dichotomy should look like. At some point, my Imperial character was presented with the following dilemma:

 

A. Turn a severely wounded man over to the Empire for torture & interrogation (Light)

B. Kill him. (dark)

 

Basically, both of these options are "dark". I would even argue that option A is a fate worse than death. A light-side choice would instead look something like:

 

C. Put the man on an escape pod with a medical droid to tend to his wounds, and let him take his chances running.

 

Bioware writers need to try a little harder.

 

This interview will give you an answer about that.

 

Go to the last page near the end of the interview, and the interviewer asks pretty much the same question.

[kiddeth]

I don't recall it saying anything about abuse. She just said she couldn't live with him anymore, and couldn't break it to him.

 

I chose the answer I did, which was to tell him the truth, because I believe in telling the truth at all times unless there is an extreme case like saving someone's life from a murderer or something.

 

I wouldn't have said "respect her wishes" as my character ended up saying. I would have been more along the line of, "Look at yourself, and see if you can understand why she would do this, and maybe try to talk to her." But that was the way the lines went, so /shrug.

 

As for "sanctity" of marriage, "judging" by your siggy, I would hazard to guess you wouldn't know much about that

area.

 

I have honestly enjoyed the conflicting situations they have thrown at us, and I've agreed with most of them so far (I haven't gotten to Alderaan nor did I read the spoiler, so I'm not commenting on that). If it were easy and clearcut, it wouldn't be as interesting. Doing the right thing is rarely easy, and situations can be very complicated so that sometimes it's hard to know what the right thing is.

 

22, 23 years of partnership whit the love of my life she is a very special woman, with out her I don't know what i would do. Four children and two grand children. So you can take your "sanctity of marriage" and toss it off a cliff. The whole concept is pointless.

 

As for knowing what the right thing to do is, well I have never had a problem with knowing what it is or doing it.....other people may have had issue with my actions though.

[Raxwars]

I'm choosing the Dark Side in the story mode, however it's similar to your problem, some Dark Side option's, aren't really evil, they are simply a form of Madness.

 

I killed some people which made sense, but i killed others, which killing them, gave me nothing at all. Dark Side doesn't mean you have to kill everyone that crosses your path, means that you are more prone to choose the easier option, the ones that give you good results faster.

 

I have 300 ligthside points and about 7k darkside, there were simply some options that i couldnt' choose dark side. they didn't made any sense.

 

There's one specific part in Nar Shadda, where an NPC comes to me saying "He said he would kill me if i didn't said you this, he said you would kill me!!!!!"

The first option for Dark Side even before any dialogue with that NPC was "kill him"... i mean... just for being Dark Side doesn't mean i'm a lunatic murderer does it?

Edited January 4, 2012 by Raxwars

[rhirne]

Devs have stated that the way the LS / DS choices are done, they ARE trying and see if you will follow the path, or when you will vere off-course. For instance, the more LS points you get, they have made some of the later DS choices to try and get you off the path. They've also said that the choices follow a specific storyline so while the choice might seem like a DS choice, it is actually a LS choice and visa-versa.

 

For instance:

 

 

 

There is a quest on Korriban where you meet with a Sith Lord. He is doing experiments on animals saying they are showing some sign of force sensitivity and needs you to retrieve some more specimens. After you accept the quest, another one pops up for his current assistant. She tells you that he is lying to the empire and to bring the specimens back to her so she can alter them and have him removed.

 

Now if you bring the specimen back to her first and alter the specimen, you get LS points, then when you turn in the quest from the Sith Lord, you can get more LS. Turn in specimens to You would think that would be DS points right? it's not because the Sith Lord is actually torturing the animals just for the fun of it, and his assistant is actually telling the truth. So you get LS points for doing the "right thing"

 

 

 

 

 

[Meluna]

Hi there, folks! A quick reminder to please use the available SPOILER tags when sharing something that spoils the story! You can use them like this:

 

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That will give you this:

 

 

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Thank you for your understanding and help keeping this forum spoiler-free!

[AWDBAHL]

So you think saving military is more important then saving refugees....

 

What if giving them to the military saves 1 life, but giving to the refugees saves more...

 

What if giving them to the refugees saves zero lives because bandits hit them again and the military was too under-manned to stop it?

[NovusAnimus]

Keep in mind that light and dark are not good and bad. Light is more like peaceful, calm, and passive. Dark is more emotional and aggressive.

 

The light side does not view all things dark side as evil, just against their ways. They forbid love because it is a very strong emotion, and emotions lead to the dark side. Even though they have no issue with non-jedi partaking in love, or getting married.

 

In much the same way, not all things good are light side. As a sith character you spend a lot of time doing favors and other tasks for people. The things you do aren't always evil, but they generally do require some emotion, and are done for personal gain. Yet when I as a smuggler do things for personal gain, it's usually neither light nor dark.

 

Also, to note, what constitutes a light or dark side choice often changes from class to class, and side to side. For a smuggler or trooper, usually flirts are neither dark nor light. Whereas with Kira at least, the jedi knight companion, several of the flirt options come with dark side points.

 

 

Overall, the republic, and the jedi, aren't really the good guys. They're just the other guys. They make choices in the name of their quasi-religion that many of us would feel are wrong, but it goes along with their way of life, and their code.

 

Moral subjectivity and ethical relativity are big NO-NOs for the average dude.

 

To your average shmuck, Light = good and Dark = bad, because they think the world is a black/white world with clearly labeled heroes and villains. The sad thing? Most people maintain this unbelievably blind and fanatical view of life well into their elder years, and often to death.

 

Even the movies tried to explore the concept of 'points of view', which probably went over the heads of 99% of the viewers. -_-

[AtomicWanderer]

Moral subjectivity and ethical relativity are big NO-NOs for the average dude.

 

To your average shmuck, Light = good and Dark = bad, because they think the world is a black/white world with clearly labeled heroes and villains. The sad thing? Most people maintain this unbelievably blind and fanatical view of life well into their elder years, and often to death.

 

Even the movies tried to explore the concept of 'points of view', which probably went over the heads of 99% of the viewers. -_-

 

Thank goodness for mental giants like yourself to show everyone the error of their ways.

 

Whether you choose to believe it or not, many of the things in life fall firmly within the bounds of "good" or "bad". As hip as it is to believe otherwise, there is absolutely nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade.

[Elblai]

I personally haven't seen an issue with the Light Side or Dark Side options. I can see the points of some THEORETICAL scenarios that have been presented in this thread, but in the end they are just theoretical and I feel the game stories when I went through them did not present themselves that way.

 

On the idea of light side options having potentially dark side actions, well, I'd say just look at the movies. Qui-Gon alone proved it was well within Light Side to lie, cheat, steal, and gamble. Intent, in my experience, has been the driving force behind LS/DS.

 

Killing a wounded man out of mercy to help him avoid a painful death? Light Side. (Not saying you couldn't save him, just saying that with that reasoning it could be viewed as Light Side.)

Killing the very same wounded man just because you like to kill things for fun? Dark Side. (Not saying that you couldn't torture him first, just saying that with that reasoning it could be viewed as Dark Side.)

 

Short version: I've always felt that the movies showed that INTENT is the cause of LS/DS.

 

That being said, the Ord Mantell medicine decision still could be argued both ways. I agree there.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Elblai

[JawaJedi]

I've noticed some of this as well.. and sometimes been noticing that making these choices are FORCING me into some sort of Liberal ideology... makes me Ponder about the Devs..

 

I can't remember what quest it was but one of them in specific was about Torturing.. you know the whole Jack Bauer scenario.. republic side to get information from a Separatist that would save 1,000's of lives..of course it would be Dark side if I tortured him. /rolls eyes.

 

Yes, because people who are tortured always tell the truth!

 

Actually, that bugs me a lot in the game. Not enough liars. If someone says they're a spy for your side, they're actually a spy for your side.

 

Return medical supplies to refugees who stole them from the military who protects them + 50 LS

 

Give medical supplies back to under-funded military, which is explicitly stated will save lives + 50 DS

 

 

I get how giving them to orphans is a light side type thing, but returning the needed supplies to a military facing an insurgency and active operations is dark side? This wasn't a corrupt office, and you weren't being bribed.

 

Weak.

 

Return medical supplies to the refugees who paid for the supplies through extortation and are in desperate need of them +50 LS

 

Give medical supplies bck to the corrupt military who beats up and steals from refugees and has the easier access to more supplie anyway +50 DS

 

The military on Ord Mantell is clearly corrupt, there's nothing wrong with this quest.

 

Now, I've seen about two quests that seem legitimately off base (the one the OP brings up is one), but I haven't played either quest so I can't be sure.

 

There's a fairly clear cut system for light/dark

Light:

Freedom

Democracy

Helping the Innocent

Try to work things out non-violently.

Dark:

Torture

Pain

Death

Following Orders without Question

[Talorra]

How about a certain decision regarding missiles, a moon and an Imperial Fleet during the Cademimu flashpoint *facepalm*

[ApesAmongUs]

Hey if your wife wants to do heroin and become a stripper you shouldn't be so controlling; let her go crazy and ruin her life.

Hey, that indicated you feel some emotion towards her - hence dark side. For light side you need to break out a slide rule and do a strict, emotionless, cost benefit analysis.

[JawaJedi]

Hey, that indicated you feel some emotion towards her - hence dark side. For light side you need to break out a slide rule and do a strict, emotionless, cost benefit analysis.

 

No, for light side you respect the choice. Light side has never been a rejection of emotion, but rather refusing to allow it to control you.

[anreciel]

You have to take into account that not all options are black and white. Just like IRL. Sometimes the "right" decision isn't always something you agree with. But its still stands.

[ApesAmongUs]

No, for light side you respect the choice. Light side has never been a rejection of emotion, but rather refusing to allow it to control you.

I'm pretty sure the Jedi morality was pretty explicitly revealed when they said saving your mother from slavery or having a girlfriend were temptations to the dark side.

[Zedakah]

The two most notable examples I could think of are listed below. The first one is one of the first quests for a female imperial agent where you are confronted by a man, and he's blackmailing you.

 

 

The options for a female are... 1. pay him off (light side) 2. prostitute yourself (light side...***?) 3. kill him (dark side).

 

First, I'm a guy, not a girl, but I just feel that prostituting myself for personal gain should not not be a light side option. If anything, make it neutral.

 

 

 

The other quest on my main (gunslinger) was the end of one of the main Hoth quest chains. It's not so much the light/dark options as the illogical options of them one after the other.

 

 

You encounter a White Maw leader who copied your new prototype weapon. You are ordered to retrieve the weapon. You confront the leader who says he will make a deal with you.

 

If you make a deal with him, he keeps the copies and you get the prototype (light side). Or you can attack and kill him (dark side).

 

No matter what, you kill him. Right after there is another conversation with an ally. He says these weapons cannot fall into enemy hands, but they don't have the manpower to retrieve them all. The options are to.....1. Destroy the weapons to prevent the White Maw from obtaining them (light side) or retrieve the prototype and letting the white maw take the copies (dark side).

 

 

Now, if you notice, these LS/DS choices are the exact opposite and presented to you back to back within 2 minutes of each other. How can one action be a LS option one minute, and literally the next minute it is the DS option???

Edited January 5, 2012 by Zedakah

[usmarshal]

Are many of the Republic quests like the ones you've described? I've only played Empire as of yet and most of the choices are true black and white.

[Uruare]

I get the feeling, with regularity, like I'm playing in a game world where LS and DS points were tacked onto things possibly long after the dialogue scripts themselves were set forth, and that a lot of the point assignments were made on a "Well, we gotta maintain a certain flow of morality points, so...uh...for this segment, we want 500 points. Bob, Sally, stick 500 points worth of LS/DS shift in this segment."

 

Which left Bob abd Sally trying to find places in existing, cemented dialogue to make these point assignments, whereafter which Larry reviewed it and didn't agree with this and that, sent it back to Bob and Sally to change a couple things, whereupon they changed a couple more because they started second-guessing themselves, and then sent it back to Larry.

 

When finally stamped by Larry and sent along to Quality and Marketing, if it looked good in abstract and wasn't breaking rules on the ratings of marketable presentation front, it'd get signed off on, and voila.

 

50 LS points for killing a dude in cold blood, or 50 DS points for letting him live.

 

150 LS points and +40 companion rep for making some insanely stupid, morally irrelevant but tactically retarded choice...or 150 DS points and -30 companion rep for doing the equally morally irrelevant but tactically intelligent thing.

 

In related interest, I stopped paying attention to LS/DS gains and set forth on my bounty hunter to always do the smartest (as defined by tactically advantageous) thing possible.

 

Turns out that being rational, objective and intelligent without being wastefully malicious or needlessly unkind is solidly grey.

 

It's funny to me how, in my own mind, that makes sense in the abstract...but how it got there looks like Banana + ERROR + badger badger badger + I KEEL J00 = correct answer.

 

I don't know how they arrived at it in the BH line, but in the abstract, it's...as I think it should be for how I've played. Just...how it got there and the individual point assignments to a lot of the choices were often very backwards seeming to me, if not outright irrelevant.

 

Ho hum!

[Caelith]

Yea the morality system in this game is broken.

 

If you want to be evil then most of the choices are idiotic and short sighted.

[BrigOrion]

It's a badly conceived system which has been poorly implemented. To make matters worse, the writers are twits.

[SolxTheUnmaker]

The problem with Good VS Evil, Light VS Dark is that they are all based on perspective.

 

What you perceive as Light, bight be Dark to someone else's perspective.

 

This is why a morality system is extremely hard to properly implement in games, due to the designers/writers perspectives VS the people playing the games perspectives.

[stormdrakelord]

i'm gonna take the whole Jedi against romance deal into a non-in-game Light Side/Dark Side example:

 

a Jedi shadow tells you that a couple of female padawans left the order at the same time for unknown reasons, and asks you to find out why and see if you can get them to return. You go through with the investigation to find out that women are actually in love with each other and decided to leave the order because the other Jedi would not accept them and to have their own family: adopting a young girl whose parents were both killed in the fighting during a Civil War on a republic Planet. They ask you to convince the Jedi to leave them alone as they are no longer a part of the order. you now have two options:

 

 

1. Light Side-go back to Jedi Shadow and explain why they left and tell him to leave them alone.
   
2. Dark Side-force them to give up there life together and return to the order.
   

 

 

Letting them be is LS because you listened to their side of the story and agreed that what the Shadow wanted was a big mistake, also you see that they are happy and decide that it is better for all of them.

Edited January 6, 2012 by stormdrakelord

[JawaJedi]

I'm pretty sure the Jedi morality was pretty explicitly revealed when they said saving your mother from slavery or having a girlfriend were temptations to the dark side.

 

The problem there is that the emotions are CONTROLLING the actions. You shouldn't be letting your emotions drive your actions, and you should be respectful of the emotions of others.

[Drsheman]

no reason to min/max dark/light.....in end game it wont really matter anyway. So play the story as you see fit

[ApesAmongUs]

The problem there is that the emotions are CONTROLLING the actions.

What does that even mean?