Juggernaut Versus Powertech Tanking Comparison

[Sykomyke]

I posted this in the Class forums, but figured I would note the changes here in the tanking sub-forum as well.

 

I did some comparisons and I think Juggernauts/Guardians need some loving in comparison to other tanks. In direct comparison to Powertechs/Vanguards that is.

 

I'm expecting Warrior/Knight changes (for the better) in the future. There are clearly issues with the class (even though I enjoy it) with tanking in general.

 

Powertech/Vanguards have much more core defensive talents that definitely have synergy where as a Juggernaut I feel like my Immortal tree has very little synergy. Aside from a +4% to shield chance, I feel like there is very little cohesiveness with the tree.

 

Let's compare what I consider the optimal "Tank" build for Powetech versus Juggernaut.

 

Powertech: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301RRMrdRrogzZMcbZ0c.1

ONLY Defensive Bonuses with Powertech build listed below:

 

Temporary Buffs/Debuffs(On enemy)

 

• Combust-Lowers enemy damage by 4% when affected by Flame Sweep/Flame Burst
  
• Oil Slick-Lowers enemy accuracy by 20% in an area for 18 seconds.
  

 

 

Permanent Buffs/Debuffs (On enemy)

 

• Rebraced Armor -Armor rating increased by 16%
  
• Shield Vents-Shield chance increased by 2% (Also has a chance to vent heat!)
  
• Ablative Upgrades-Increases Absorption Rating by 6%. (Also reduces cooldown of Self Heal!)
  
• Ion Screen-2% Damage Reduction
  
• Empowered Tech-10% Increased Shield Chance.
  
• Power Armor-Reduces all damage taken by 2%.
  
• Integrated Cardio Package-Increased endurance by 3%.
  

 

 

Total Permanent Defensive Bonuses:

Armor=116%

Shield Chance=X(Base Value of your shield chance)+12%

Shield Absorption=X(Base Value of your shield absorb)+6%

Damage Reduction=X(Base Value of your DR)+4%

Defense Chance=X(Base Value)

Endurance=103%

 

Juggernaut: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101fMGbu0rkuRZhZGb.1

 

Temporary Buffs/Debuffs(On enemy)

 

 

• Quake-Smash lowers affected targets accuracy by 5% for 18 Seconds.
  
• Blade Barricade-Defense chance increased by 6% when using retaliation.
  
• Sonic Barrier-Moderate damage shield that lasts 10 seconds or until broken. Can be used every 12 seconds.
  
• Dark Blood-Increases duration of Endure Pain by 5 seconds (Total of 15 seconds with 30% temporary health)
  
• Invincible-40% Damage reduction for 10 seconds every 3 minutes.
  
• Payback-Heals 10% hp every 1:30 (includes Unleashe talented cooldown reduction)
  

 

 

Permanent Buffs/Debuffs (On enemy)

 

• Guard Stance-Defense chance increased by 6%
  
• Shield Specialization-Shield chance increased by 4%
  
• Dark Blood-Internal/Elemental damaged reduction by 4%
  

 

 

Total Permanent Defensive Bonuses:

Armor=100%

Shield Chance=X(Base Value)+4%

Shield Absorption=X(Base Value)

Damage Reduction=X(Base Value)

---Damage Reduction versus Internal/Elemental=X(Base Value)+4%

Defense Chance=X(Base Value)+6%

Endurance=100%

 

 

 

As a comparison let's look at a few of the differences.

*Oil Slick versus Smash: Holy crap! 20% versus 5% reduced accuracy for 18 seconds. Wow what disparity!

 

*Self heals: Fully talented "Unleash" versus fully talented "Kolto Overload"

10% Heal every 1:30 versus 15% heal every 2:00 minutes. Comparatively over a timeframe of 6 minutes the Juggernaut would heal for a total of 40% while the Powertech could heal for a total of 45%. The main difference here? Unleash REQUIRES you to be under the effects of some crowd control in order to use, while Kolto Overload doesn't have any such requirement. Meaning...if you aren't being CC'd (Slowed, stunned, knockdown, etc) you can't use it.

 

*Damage Reduction. Powertechs get 4% damage reduction to EVERYTHING. Juggs get 4% damage reduction versus internal/elemental only. Another big disparity when you consider it.

 

What does this all mean though? It means that Powertechs rely upon increased shield chance as their main form of mitigation. They shield more often, and for more damage. They have more permanent bonuses, they have more mitigation bonuses. This means their damage will be "less spikey" making them easier to heal. Damage on them is more consistent.

 

A Juggernaut's damage will be spikey, most of their bonuses are temproary or cooldown related. They have to pay closer attention to their health bars, and if they take a spike of damage use a cooldown to survive until the healer can heal them. They have less permanent bonuses, and overall their bonuses rely upon defense chance mainly. Meaning either the enemy will hit them or not. The only saving grace that Juggernauts get is Sonic Barrier, which I can tell you from experience in Hard-Mode heroics will not last for more then 1 attack.

 

There is a HUGE disparity between Juggernaut's and Powertechs in their ability to tank damage effectively.

 

This comparison above doesn't even begin to go into the offensive bonuses for each. Powertechs have an easier time grabbing AoE aggro, while Juggernaut's have difficulty with it. Offensively, the only gain that Juggernauts get is they get a quite a few Crowd Control abilities, but this matters little on bosses.

 

Edit: I'm not trying to make the classes the same. I like asymmetrical classes with different bonuses. And I'm not saying to nerf Powertechs. They have an obvious synergy with all of their talents that works well. Their entire core of their design revolves around shielding for the most part. But I would like to see Juggernaut talents brought in line with this as well.

 

***Addendum***

Edit: Did Math for oil slick versus smash comparison on Page 3. Added to first post.

 

Let's assume that a single fight with an enemy takes 60 seconds.

Also, lets' assume that the enemies attack speed is 2, so in that 60 seconds they'll get 30 hits.

 

With Smash, their accuracy is reduced to 95% the entire fight so they'll hit 28.5 out of a total possible 30 hits.

 

 

With Oil Slick, their accuracy is reduced to 80% for 18 seconds. In a 18 second timespan, 9 hits occur. This totals on average of 7.2 hits.

The rest of the 42 seconds, we'll assume 100% accuracy. That's 21 hits.

In total Powertech gets 28.2 hits.

 

Juggernaut w/Smash=28.5 attacks hit by enemy.

Powertech w/Oil Slick=28.2 attacks hit by enemy.

 

In such a small sampling of hits the numbers are close together and as such don't show a huge disparity. However, Oil slick is better tuned for short term fights. As the shorter a fight is, the better returns Oil slick will see. The longer a fight is, Smash might edge out above Oil Slick, but just barely.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Sykomyke

[MadMossy]

You missed out Jedi Shadow, Sith Assassins in your tanking comparison

[Guurzak]

"Apples vs Oranges, a comparison"

 

"dude, you left out grapes!"

 

The fact that additional comparisons and analyses are possible does not diminish the value of this one.

[Sykomyke]

You missed out Jedi Shadow, Sith Assassins in your tanking comparison

 

Sorry, was mainly doing a comparison between powertech and juggs as they are the more notable of the tanks. Not to say Sith Assassins can't tank, it's just I haven't seen any decent ones. (Or it could be that being a tank myself, I've never had a tank one join one of my groups)

 

With that being said I plan on trying out all the tanks. I think the BH is definitely a unique fun style to play. And the SA has his own unique perks, mainly getting self heals to help mitigate damage along with decent burst damage and burst aggro abilities.

 

The problem I have with Juggs is we have marginally less overall mitigation comparatively to other tanks for significantly less offensive power all because we have a few better passives/talents. (Namely Saber Ward and Sonic Barrier). I'm sorry but Saber Ward/Sonic Barrier does not make up for the lack of consistent mitigation or the lack of damage. I don't want to be an overpowered class and be FOTM, but I would like our classes mitigation and damage to be brought in line with the other tanks.

[jd-inflames]

Did I miss something? I haven't gotten very far on my assassin, but where do they have 'self heals'?

 

My question to you before I continue with this thread, is your Juggernaut 50 yet? Are you holding aggro efficiently with all of those defensive points in Rage instead of picking up the notable threat talents in Vengeance?

 

Unfortunately I've had little time to do as much theorycrafting as I was hoping due to work, so I'm not being condescending, I'm being 100% serious. We've been debating it over the past few days here. If you'd like, take a look and add your opinions either there or in my PM box (keeping up with these threads are hard, when I get back to this tomorrow there's no telling where this thread will be on this forum!)

 

As for your thoughts on PT tanking, I've only gotten a very limited look at it myself and agree, it's definitely different and interesting. My Juggernaut is becoming rather difficult to play as of late, not due to the mechanics, but the stale gameplay to be honest. I personally don't seem to be having the tanking issues that you, and several other forum-goers have been experiencing, but as an enjoyable class to play I don't find it as such. In my opinion, there are far too many key abilities, and I'm developing a rather bad case of carpal tunnel syndrome from spreading my hand all over the keyboard trying to initiate them. Due to all of this, my survival cooldowns aren't even hotkeyed, I'm currently having to click them (which makes me a sad panda).

 

Still an enjoyable read, carry on.

[Rorbzy]

I posted this in the Class forums, but figured I would note the changes here in the tanking sub-forum as well.

 

 

Total Permanent Defensive Bonuses:

Armor=100%

Shield Chance=X(Base Value)+4%

Shield Absorption=X(Base Value)

Damage Reduction=X(Base Value)

---Damage Reduction versus Internal/Elemental=X(Base Value)+4%

Defense Chance=X(Base Value)+6%

Endurance=100%

 

You're not taking into consideration Soresu form buffing your armor by %60.

I'll agree that PT's have better tools, and I feel they are generally more fun to play. Pt's shield more, but I think you'll find that Jugg makes up for it with more armor.

I also think Jugg will have higher threat than PT, but I'm not really an expert being lvl 36 Jugg and a lvl 15 pt

[Kitru]

As a comparison let's look at a few of the differences.

*Oil Slick versus Smash: Holy crap! 20% versus 5% reduced accuracy for 18 seconds. Wow what disparity!

 

You're completely ignoring uptime ratios. Oil Slick is on a 60 sec CD while Smash is on a 15 sec CD. A Juggernaut/Guardian can maintain the 5% accuracy debuff permanently while a PT/VG can only maintain a roughly 25% uptime.

 

*Self heals: Fully talented "Unleash" versus fully talented "Kolto Overload"

 

First off, Unleash isn't meant to be a direct comparison to Kolto Overload. Unleash is your CC removal power and it can be *talented* (albeit with a talent that no Tank would actually consider taking) into being a self heal. Kolto Overload is fully intended to be a self heal and designed as such. You're comparing an apple to an orange here.

 

*Damage Reduction. Powertechs get 4% damage reduction to EVERYTHING. Juggs get 4% damage reduction versus internal/elemental only. Another big disparity when you consider it.

 

Ion Gas Cylinder provides 5% default damage reduction with 4% additional from talents. Juggs get Soresu form which provides 6% default damage reduction. It's a 3% difference, not as much as you think.

 

What does this all mean though?

 

While I agree with the sentiment (Powertechs and Vanguards are *noticeably* better tanks all around at the moment compared to Juggs/Guards and Assassins/Shadows), you're overstating the degree to which Powertechs are better and, in doing so, shooting yourself in the foot. You're not even looking at a holistic comparison of the classes in question, which would actually show you something.

 

First off, you've got to realize that Shield and absorb are fundamentally lower in value than Defense. A higher shield chance will allow you to mitigate more often, but it is a partial mitigation rather than a complete mitigation. Ergo, bonus defense (such as the copious amounts provided by Guardians/Juggs) is worth more, on a point for point basis, than bonus shield or absorb.

 

Let's consider the armor (and damage reduction), defense, shield, and absorb benefits of well played Juggernauts:

 

First off, you get 6% additional defense as provided by Guard Stance. You also get an additional 6% defense as provided by Blade Barricade (Riposte has a 6 second CD and chances are *excellent* that you're going to get at least 1 defense success within any specific 6 second window since a vast majority of attacks are multi-attacks and you only need to deflect 1 of them for it to count; it's functionally a permanent buff; at worst, it'll have 75% uptime). Since accuracy reduction is functionally the same as defense (it reduces the chance to hit), Quake provides an additional 5%.

 

Soresu form provides 60% additional armor and 6% damage reduction. The 60% additional armor is the same as that provided by the PT tank stance by default so we can largely ignore it. For I/E, you get 4% extra. That's pretty much it for that.

 

For shield, Soresu form provide 15% additional shield chance (a standard for Ion Gas Cylinder, so we can ignore it) and Shield Spec provides an additional 4%.

 

For absorb, you get nothing.

 

Totaled up, this means that a Juggernaut is going to have 17% additional defense, 6% additional K/E damage reduction, 10% additional I/E damage reduction, and 4% additional shield chance.

 

Now let's look at Powertech for the same values:

 

Ion Gas Cylinder provides 60% additional armor and 5% damage reduction. 16% additional armor (for a total of 76%; it's additive, not multiplicative) and 4% additional damage reduction from talents (Powered Armor and Ion Screen). The 16% additional armor equates to *roughly* 2% additional K/E damage reduction.

 

For defense, you get nothing.

 

For shield chance, you get the standard 15% from your tank stance and 12% from talents.

 

For absorb, you get 6%.

 

In addition, PTs get a 4% damage debuff they maintain on targets at all times.

 

Totaled up, this means a Powertech is going to get 11% additional K/E damage reduction, 9% additional I/E damage reduction, 12% better shield chance, and 6% additional absorb.

 

Now, let's compare the two mitigation amounts holistically. For this, I'm going to make a couple assumptions here. From gear, I'm going to assume that armor before the 16% additional for the PT equates to 30% K/E reduction, defense is bolstered by 5% (with a base of 5%), shield (with the basic 20% chance) is bolstered by 10%, and absorption is bolstered by 15% (with a basic 20% absorb). I'm also going to assume that all of the attacks in question are melee/ranged and deal K/E damage for simplicity's sake. Getting into the various attack types and the proportions of them would overcomplicate everything.

 

In the initial roll, a Juggernaut will be hit by 73% (100 - (5 + 5 + 17)) of incoming attacks. Of the attacks that hit, a Juggernaut will shield 34% (20 + 10 + 4) and take 35% (20 + 15) less damage from those attacks. Of all damage taken, a Juggernaut will take 65% (100 - (30 + 6)) of it.

 

Doing the math (.73 hit * (1 - (.34 shield * .35 absorb)) * .64 reduction), the Juggernaut would take 41.1% of the damage in question.

 

In the initial roll, a Powertech will be hit by 90% (100 - (5 + 5)) of incoming attacks. Of the attacks that hit, a Powertech will shield 52% (20 + 10 + 12) and take 41% (20 + 15 + 6) less damage from those attacks. Of all damage taken, A Powertech will take 59% (100 - (30 + 11)) of it.

 

Doing the math ((1 - .04) damage * 90% hit * (1 - (.52 shield * .41 absorb) * .59 reduction), the Powertech would take 40.1% of the damage in question.

 

Now, Juggernauts (and, by extension, Guardians) will definitely take damage in spikier amounts (a reliance on high amounts of defense will do that), but they'll take about the same amount of damage (the given numbers in no way indicate that the gear is optimized for the given classes in the least: Juggs do best when heavily stacking defense while PTs do best when heavily stacking Absorb and completely ignoring Defense). There isn't some grand disparity between the two. It's relatively minor and, since the game is in its early stages of play (and therefore analysis), it's to be expected.

 

Now, the other major factor in survivability is the cooldowns.

 

Juggernauts get Endure Pain, Saber Ward, and Invincible.

 

Endure Pain provides 30% additional health (equates to 23% (1 / 1.3) reduction in all incoming damage) with 8.3% uptime.

Saber Ward provides 100% melee/ranged mitigation for 1.1% uptime, 68.5% (1 - (.23 / .73)) melee/ranged mitigation for 5.5% uptime, and 27.7% (1 - (.65 / .9)) Force/Tech mitigation with 6.6% uptime.

Invincible provides 62.5% (1 - ((the full complete equation up above with .24 reduction instead = .154) / .411)) K/E mitigation and 44.4% (1 - (.5 /.9)) I/E mitigation with a 5.5% uptime.

 

Powertechs get Oil Slick, Energy Shield, and Kolto Overload.

 

Oil Slick provides 37% (1 - (.7 / .9)) melee/ranged mitigation with 30% uptime.

Energy Shield provides 42.3% (1 - (the full complete equation up above with .34 reduction instead = .241) / .418) K/E mitigation and 27% (1 - (.66 / .91)) I/E mitigation with 10% uptime.

Kolto Overload provides .125% (.15 / 120) hp/sec.

 

So, with all of the values fully averaged over time (mitigation * uptime) and summed up (since it's highly doubtful you'd even use them at the same time), Juggernauts get 4.6% additional mitigation of the most common types over time and Powertechs get 15.3% additional mitigation of the most common types over time and .125% hp/sec.

 

Since Guardians and Powertechs are functionally identical for the purposes of non-temporary mitigation, it's rather obvious that, because Guardian CDs are on such long CDs (hence the terrible values thanks to terrible uptimes), Powertechs have a *massive* advantage in terms of cooldown contribution.

 

The only mitigation "buffs" that Guardians need in relation to Powertechs (or nerfs needed by Powertechs in relation to Guardians) is a fix on the value of their CDs. Since Guardians get so much less out of their CDs, either Powertechs need to get *worse* CDs or Guardians need theirs to be better.

 

Next time, I add Shadows to my list of insane holistic survivability analysis!

Edited January 9, 2012 by Kitru

[Sykomyke]

Did I miss something? I haven't gotten very far on my assassin, but where do they have 'self heals'?

 

My question to you before I continue with this thread, is your Juggernaut 50 yet? Are you holding aggro efficiently with all of those defensive points in Rage instead of picking up the notable threat talents in Vengeance?

 

Unfortunately I've had little time to do as much theorycrafting as I was hoping due to work, so I'm not being condescending, I'm being 100% serious. We've been debating it over the past few days here. If you'd like, take a look and add your opinions either there or in my PM box (keeping up with these threads are hard, when I get back to this tomorrow there's no telling where this thread will be on this forum!)

 

As for your thoughts on PT tanking, I've only gotten a very limited look at it myself and agree, it's definitely different and interesting. My Juggernaut is becoming rather difficult to play as of late, not due to the mechanics, but the stale gameplay to be honest. I personally don't seem to be having the tanking issues that you, and several other forum-goers have been experiencing, but as an enjoyable class to play I don't find it as such. In my opinion, there are far too many key abilities, and I'm developing a rather bad case of carpal tunnel syndrome from spreading my hand all over the keyboard trying to initiate them. Due to all of this, my survival cooldowns aren't even hotkeyed, I'm currently having to click them (which makes me a sad panda).

 

Still an enjoyable read, carry on.

 

Dark Charge is used to self heal for a small percentage. Can also be buffed up by overcharge saber to heal for a significant amount.

 

Yes I'm 50. What an asinine assumption to make that I'm not 50. And what "threat talents" in vengeance? After going 31 points into Immortal you only have 10 points leftover to distribute in the other trees. There are NONE. I repeat NO threat talents in the first 2 tiers of vengeance or rage. I think you are seriously misinformed or you are not conveying your point properly. Either way I take a huge affront to your misinformed assumptions.

 

As for having your survival cooldowns not hotkeyed. Yea, would be nice to hotkey them, I don't have them hotkeyed either. But it's not necessary IMO. Do we have a lot of abilities? Yes. So do a bunch of other classes. Not everything is going to be used in every situation.

[Sykomyke]

You're not taking into consideration Soresu form buffing your armor by %60.

I'll agree that PT's have better tools, and I feel they are generally more fun to play. Pt's shield more, but I think you'll find that Jugg makes up for it with more armor.

I also think Jugg will have higher threat than PT, but I'm not really an expert being lvl 36 Jugg and a lvl 15 pt

 

Actually yes I am. Both Soresu Form and Ion Gas Cylinder are functionally the same, which is why I left them out. Please see below.

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/3SQar1G

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/8eCuJyq

 

They have very slight differences but I consider them to be flavors of the same thing because they are both functionally "tanking stance". Sure Ion Gas cylinder is more offensive oriented while Soresu is more defense oriented but if you'd like I can add in the 1% extra DR from Soresu into the calculations.

 

Please do a little more research before you go and try to one up someone.

[Sykomyke]

Snip

 

Pretty much regurgitated what I already stated with a few minor differences. If you're going to try and disavow someone's analysis at least do so without REPEATING ALL THE INFORMATION I SAID. And I highly disagree that "no tank" isn't going to take payback. What would you do with your extra 10 points after going 31 in immortal? The other talents in Tier 2 of rage are specific to Schii-Cho form, and any self respecting tank is already going to get the Unleashed talent in the Immortal tree, it makes sense to get another buff to your CC removal ability. I realize that it's primarily a CC removal tool, but other than that ONE TALENTED trait, we have no other self heals.

 

IF you really wanna be "holistic" about it (Which you overuse that term so much it makes me believe you just saw it this morning on your 'word of the day' and felt you need to use it in every other sentance) then sure let's take out the fact that a talented CC removal skill can heal.

 

Now you further prove my points by clearly pointing out that Powertechs get a self heal while Juggernauts don't.

 

Edit: Further proof you didn't read my original post at all and just rage-typed out your response trying to discredit my analysis between PT and Jugg.

 

A Juggernaut's damage will be spikey, most of their bonuses are temproary or cooldown related. They have to pay closer attention to their health bars, and if they take a spike of damage use a cooldown to survive until the healer can heal them. They have less permanent bonuses, and overall their bonuses rely upon defense chance mainly. Meaning either the enemy will hit them or not. The only saving grace that Juggernauts get is Sonic Barrier, which I can tell you from experience in Hard-Mode heroics will not last for more then 1 attack.

 

Now, Juggernauts (and, by extension, Guardians) will definitely take damage in spikier amounts (a reliance on high amounts of defense will do that), but they'll take about the same amount of damage (the given numbers in no way indicate that the gear is optimized for the given classes in the least: Juggs do best when heavily stacking defense while PTs do best when heavily stacking Absorb and completely ignoring Defense). There isn't some grand disparity between the two. It's relatively minor and, since the game is in its early stages of play (and therefore analysis), it's to be expected.

 

O RLY? Where would you have come up with how juggernaut's take spikier damage? It couldn't have been from my ORIGINAL POST COULD IT?!?!? NAHHH!

 

Edit2t: Also it's almost nearly impossible to compare shadows to PT/Jugs due to the difference in tanking stances/armor values. In addition all your "maths" did was further prove my point that all of the cooldown related buffs highly favor Powertechs.

 

Something that no amount of math or theorycrafting will tell you either is that Endure Pain is NOT...I repeat...IS NOT a damage reduction buff as you call it. Endure Pain is best used when you take a spike in damage that puts you below 25% life. You use Endure Pain to do just that...Endure until your healer can fill your health up again. It's not meant to be used in the same fashion as saber ward or invincible. Could it be used in the same fashion? Sure, go for it. But using Endure Pain at the start of a fight or just mid-fight with no reason will do nothing but just confuse your healers. I'm sorry if you feel I'm being abrasive with my responses but I've PLAYED a Juggernaut to 50 in live and played a Powertech to 50 in beta. After getting this Juggernaut to 50 and doing Hardmode Instances I feel so weak in comparison to Powertechs. There needs to be a QoL update to Juggernauts, and not one person I've talked to in game that plays Immortal Spec'd Juggernaut disagrees with me.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Sykomyke

[Kitru]

Pretty much regurgitated what I already stated with a few minor differences.

 

Actually, I took most of what you said *and then did the math*. Simply spouting out the different amounts in which aspects of a class gets buffed and inappropriately comparing abilities means absolutely nothing (Quake to Oil Slick? And you completely ignored the CDs? /facepalm).

 

If you're going to try and disavow someone's analysis

 

First off, remember that I agree with you. PT/VGs are *way* better tanks at the moments than Jugg/Guards and Sins/Shads. Something needs to be done.

 

Secondly, you didn't do any real analysis. You inaccurately compared some abilities, attributes and talents without looking at the real effect. You gave a list. I did analysis.

 

And I highly disagree that "no tank" isn't going to take payback. What would you do with your extra 10 points after going 31 in immortal?

 

Vengeance. 30% more damage with your primary AoE and a faster CD on it to boot. Faster Sunder stacking for more out of Crushing Blow faster. 3% additional accuracy, and 6% additional Strength.

 

That's a *way* better payout than the Rage tree.

 

Edit: Further proof you didn't read my original post at all and just rage-typed out your response trying to discredit my analysis between PT and Jugg.

 

Seriously? I typed out a massive wall of text replete with quantified approximations of performance with all of my math shown and I did it out of spite? *** man?

 

O RLY? Where would you have come up with how juggernaut's take spikier damage?

 

Yes, because you're the first person *ever* to say that Juggernauts have spikier incoming damage than Powertechs.

 

Something that no amount of math or theorycrafting will tell you either is that Endure Pain is NOT...I repeat...IS NOT a damage reduction buff as you call it. Endure Pain is best used when you take a spike in damage that puts you below 25% life.

 

Let me explain my thought process here. First off, it's very difficult to effectively quantify additional health for short periods of time. Secondly, I can honestly say that I haven't ever used Endure Pain (or, since I'm a Repub, Enure) since my Guard doesn't have it yet. My presumption was that, when it ended, your hit points remained at their same percentage equivalence or, barring that, you kept the same number of hit points and it simply reduced your max hp, as opposed to maintaining the same amount of damage and having your hit points drop (which doesn't really make sense, imo, since, if you're in the 30% or lower range, you'd die as soon as the debuff fell).

 

Now, since your max hit points are increased and, based on my logic of how the power operates, some portion of damage is "removed", it actually translates well into a short period of universal mitigation that is equal to the value indicated by the equation I listed for it (base hp / augmented hp) for the duration of the effect. If you can think of any *better* way to quantify it, I challenge you, but, in all of my theorycrafting experiences, I've yet to find any better way for these effects.

 

Remember this: I agree with you.

 

I think you went about it in the wrong way when you railed on PTs because you thought they had better non-CD mitigation (since, as my math indicates, it's actually substantially more even than most people ever considered), but I agree (and even gave math to support the claim) that PTs are better due to having *much better* CDs. It wasn't your results I was disagreeing with but your methods, and, when you're trying to convince people (especially the devs, which generally need to be told *exactly* what differences exist in real effect), the methods matter just as much, if not more.

[Sykomyke]

I don't like breaking up quotes, because it's a sign of the unintelligent as they aren't able to discern any argument except in it's basest form. (I.e. sentance by sentance). But your rebuttal leaves me no choice but to strawman each section as you have done.

 

Actually, I took most of what you said *and then did the math*. Simply spouting out the different amounts in which aspects of a class gets buffed and inappropriately comparing abilities means absolutely nothing (Quake to Oil Slick? And you completely ignored the CDs? /facepalm).

 

Yes I ignored the cooldowns initially. I realize that one is a low variance debuff that can be maintained indefinitely...IN THEORY. In practice it's far harder to maintain aggro on multiple mobs, use crowd control as necessary, deal with knockbacks, and other assorted mechanics of fights and keep smash on all targets at all times. I can tell you. I'd much rather have Oil slick and use it as an "oh ****" button then have smash. That being said, I still like the -accuracy it gives, but it's nowhere equal in utility as Oil Slick.

 

 

First off, remember that I agree with you. PT/VGs are *way* better tanks at the moments than Jugg/Guards and Sins/Shads. Something needs to be done.

 

Secondly, you didn't do any real analysis. You inaccurately compared some abilities, attributes and talents without looking at the real effect. You gave a list. I did analysis.

Really now. So me PLAYING both classes and comparing the values of the talents and skills in-game, versus your theorycrafting is now dismissible? Riiiiight.

 

 

Vengeance. 30% more damage with your primary AoE and a faster CD on it to boot. Faster Sunder stacking for more out of Crushing Blow faster. 3% additional accuracy, and 6% additional Strength.

 

That's a *way* better payout than the Rage tree.

Well first off. I did have the talent for 30% damage on smash. For your information it's called Decimate. Again, if you had bothered to pay attention you'd notice that it IS PART OF THE BUILD I listed. Secondly., being someone who ACTUALLY HAS PLAYED a juggernaut to 50 and has done heroics with my juggernaut at 50, I can tell you that improved sunder at *lower* levels has it's uses, but at higher levels (more specifically when you get crushing blow) that the points used there are better spent elsewhere. Again, this is what I consider an optimal tanking build as it gives you the most survivability. If I wanted more strength and more "leet dps" I'd have gone full vengeance. Talented force choke as it is, reduces cooldown, has no channel (and as such is a great form of crowd control as I can cast it while running to help maintain aggro on multiple mobs.

 

 

Seriously? I typed out a massive wall of text replete with quantified approximations of performance with all of my math shown and I did it out of spite? *** man?

 

 

 

Yes, because you're the first person *ever* to say that Juggernauts have spikier incoming damage than Powertechs.

Nothing to see here. Move along. Just more rage-typing and regurgitated drivel.

 

 

Let me explain my thought process here. First off, it's very difficult to effectively quantify additional health for short periods of time. Secondly, I can honestly say that I haven't ever used Endure Pain (or, since I'm a Repub, Enure) since my Guard doesn't have it yet. My presumption was that, when it ended, your hit points remained at their same percentage equivalence or, barring that, you kept the same number of hit points and it simply reduced your max hp, as opposed to maintaining the same amount of damage and having your hit points drop (which doesn't really make sense, imo, since, if you're in the 30% or lower range, you'd die as soon as the debuff fell).

 

Now, since your max hit points are increased and, based on my logic of how the power operates, some portion of damage is "removed", it actually translates well into a short period of universal mitigation that is equal to the value indicated by the equation I listed for it (base hp / augmented hp) for the duration of the effect. If you can think of any *better* way to quantify it, I challenge you, but, in all of my theorycrafting experiences, I've yet to find any better way for these effects.

 

This paragraph right here proves my point. You are right it is indeed to quantify additional health for a short period of time. Let me make this very clear. You are theorycrafting with a <level 28 guardian? So you're berating me on nothing but your THEORY? Yes, let me repeat that. You don't have endure pain (or whatever the republic version is). This is gained at level 28. And your telling me HOW things work without even having ever used them? Theorycrafting is fine. But don't you dare tell me what does and does not work "effectively" when you haven't ever actually USED THEM.

 

And secondly. Yes, it works as you would not think. You LOSE the hitpoints when the effect ends. Which means (and it has happened to me before) if you are at <30% health when endure pain ends you are left with ONE health. And if you happen to still be fighting a mob? You die. It doesn't really need to be quantified. Endure Pain is 30% TEMPORARY HEALTH. 30% is 30%. Doesn't matter what mitigations you have. It's still going to go away in 15 seconds.

 

I think you went about it in the wrong way when you railed on PTs because you thought they had better non-CD mitigation (since, as my math indicates, it's actually substantially more even than most people ever considered), but I agree (and even gave math to support the claim) that PTs are better due to having *much better* CDs. It wasn't your results I was disagreeing with but your methods, and, when you're trying to convince people (especially the devs, which generally need to be told *exactly* what differences exist in real effect), the methods matter just as much, if not more.

 

So you're arguing with me based upon...semantics. You agreed with what I said but because I didn't provide "theoretical" math you'd rather argue with me. You think I just created this thread for grins and giggles? I can clearly see based upon talents, and by playing the classes first hand; that Powertechs have a clear mitigation factor. It's frustrating to have less damage, less mitigation, and less overall control over fights then another class without being compensated for it in some fashion. I'd be fine with Juggernauts if they had +Defense based talents encouraging them to stack +defense. I'd be happy if they had synergy with defense (other then retaliation(skill) and revenge(sub-par talent)) but they don't.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Sykomyke

[Wilsu_Addar]

Actually, Kitru provided a well thought out analysis and was very polite about all of it, even after you responded like a child and demeaned him.

 

You have discredited yourself completely with your rude and childish responses.

 

I will be looking forward to reading Kitru's future posts on the topic, and will be sure to ignore yours, due to the way you handled yourself on this thread. I also will be sure to flag your posts for the very rude insults.

 

- W.

[ViskarNogame]

He isn't "spouting nerd rage". He's spouting MATH to show you EXACTLY how minor the differences are. You're just going 'HEH LOOK AT THE TOOLTIPS.' Ignoring the difference between Absorption and Defense. Not to mention you compared Slam to Oil Slick - Two huge ability differences.

 

The math he provided is correct. PTs are slightly above Jugg in play, in theory they're slightly behind. However, Jugg's will scale far better with gear then PTs will.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Zilrota
removed rude

[Sykomyke]

He isn't "spouting nerd rage". He's spouting MATH to show you EXACTLY how minor the differences are. You're just going 'HEH LOOK AT THE TOOLTIPS.' Ignoring the difference between Absorption and Defense. Not to mention you compared Slam to Oil Slick - Two huge ability differences.

 

The math he provided is correct. PTs are slightly above Jugg in play, in theory they're slightly behind. However, Jugg's will scale far better with gear then PTs will.

 

I didn't ignore the difference between Absorption and Defense. Defense measurably will provide greater overall mitigation, but in spikes as higher defense means that either an enemies hit "hits" or "misses" however it has the highest diminishing returns as of right now. Defense is the easiest stat to stack with tank gear but caps out relatively early (~140 points) for efficiency.

 

By contrast Absorption is actually a rather hard stat to acquire and has the best returns for number of points invested. Now when stacking absorption you don't want to ignore Shield Rating because the two feed off each other. It doesn't matter if you shield 25% of the time for 50% damage or 50% of the time 25% damage.

 

Take for example 100 hits at 100 damage each.

With 50% shield rate at 25% absorption you'll take 50 hits (500 damage) each of those hits will be reduced to 75% of their effective damage. Total Damage? 375

With 25% shield rate and 50% absorption you'll take 75 hits (750 damage) each of those hits will be reduced to 50% of their effective damage. Total Damage? 375

 

As you can see shield rating and shield absorption are directly in relation to each other. But as I stated earlier, shield absorption is actually a better stat to stack because it has less diminishing returns (both shield rating and shield absorption start to reach a "soft cap" around 300-400 points).

 

Now taken into context given the talents within each AC's tanking tree, you can see that having shield-based stats is inherently better.

 

And the Math he DID provide has no effect on the conversation we were having. Theorycrafting such as he and I have done is all well and good, but I try to make sure things are relative to their applicable environments. In laymens terms? I don't just theorycraft, I see if something is effective in game. What I DON'T appreciate is when people try to disavow what I'm saying by spouting off numbers all the while never actually having used a skill.

 

The differences AREN'T minor either. You'll see that in addition to having smoother mitigation in encounters, Powertechs have an easier time grabbing and maintaining aggro, have higher offense/damage output overall, and have more tools at their disposal to survive encounters. Juggernauts have very little AoE threat beyond Smash and Threatening Scream.

 

Edit: Also. Where do you get this information that Jugg's will scale better in gear then powertechs? What statisical anamoly did you find that could prove that? Both classes use endurance. Both classes will use absorption/defense/shield rating. The only statistical difference between the two classes is one uses Aim, the other Strength. Both classes use heavy armor. So where exactly does your theory that Jugg's scale better with gear come from?

Edited January 8, 2012 by Zilrota
removed rude

[Pokupo]

I am wondering about this as well.

 

Looking at the Tanking Stances between the two, the only glaring differences is that Juggs get a 1% Damage reduction over PT's. And PT's get a chance at increased dmg on a proc, while Juggs generate Rage on a Hit which could translate into more Damage. [i worry though as Gear gets better and in theory Juggs will get hit less and less will they become Rage Starved? I know my Paly in WoW and some other people's Prot Warriors were starved for resources on some fights because they always dodged attacks]

 

Then from looking at Talents [if specced for it]

Power Techs:

Increase Endurance 3% [no DR]

Increase Aim 9% [primary Stat]

Increase Armor Rating 16% [from my knowledge no DR]

Increase Shiled Chance 2% and 10% [or a combined 12.2%]

 

Juggernaughts:

Increase Total Str by 6% [primary Stat]

Increase Def by 6%

Increase Def by 6% on a Proc for 6secs [or by 12.36%]

Increase Shield Chance 4%

Damage Reduction 4%

 

I am not completely sure on what kinda stats end game Gear has but I kinda have to give it to the Power Techs just because as bosses get bigger and harder being able to have the Hit Point Pool to take a hit, and being able to Block and Absorb a majority of those hits has generally proven more useful over all than Dodging and then taking a Random big hit like a Juggernaught. And from people who have raided in the past [i have in WoW and Rift] sometimes RNG can be a cruel mistress.

 

Plus most Healers that I know generally like a steady stream of consistent Damage to heal, and generally do not like the Huge spikes. [as fun as they can be sometimes]

 

Of course I could just be completely wrong in my observation.

[Sykomyke]

I am wondering about this as well.

 

Looking at the Tanking Stances between the two, the only glaring differences is that Juggs get a 1% Damage reduction over PT's. And PT's get a chance at increased dmg on a proc, while Juggs generate Rage on a Hit which could translate into more Damage. [i worry though as Gear gets better and in theory Juggs will get hit less and less will they become Rage Starved? I know my Paly in WoW and some other people's Prot Warriors were starved for resources on some fights because they always dodged attacks]

 

Then from looking at Talents [if specced for it]

Power Techs:

Increase Endurance 3% [no DR]

Increase Aim 9% [primary Stat]

Increase Armor Rating 16% [from my knowledge no DR]

Increase Shiled Chance 2% and 10% [or a combined 12.2%]

 

Juggernaughts:

Increase Total Str by 6% [primary Stat]

Increase Def by 6%

Increase Def by 6% on a Proc for 6secs [or by 12.36%]

Increase Shield Chance 4%

Damage Reduction 4%

 

I am not completely sure on what kinda stats end game Gear has but I kinda have to give it to the Power Techs just because as bosses get bigger and harder being able to have the Hit Point Pool to take a hit, and being able to Block and Absorb a majority of those hits has generally proven more useful over all than Dodging and then taking a Random big hit like a Juggernaught. And from people who have raided in the past [i have in WoW and Rift] sometimes RNG can be a cruel mistress.

 

Plus most Healers that I know generally like a steady stream of consistent Damage to heal, and generally do not like the Huge spikes. [as fun as they can be sometimes]

 

Of course I could just be completely wrong in my observation.

 

Yup, I agree. Pretty much my viewpoint in a nutshell. Consistent Damage>Spike Damage.

 

Sidenote: Your hutt avatar looks like he's trying to play a saxophone...

[Pokupo]

 

Sidenote: Your hutt avatar looks like he's trying to play a saxophone...

 

I am Bill Clinton the Hutt.

 

And I thought it was some sort of Hukka Pipe [spelling]

[Mazikeen]

As a comparison let's look at a few of the differences.

*Oil Slick versus Smash: Holy crap! 20% versus 5% reduced accuracy for 18 seconds. Wow what disparity!

 

FYI, Smash has a 15 sec CD and when talented, no cost. Oil Slick has a 60 sec CD and adds heat regardless of talents

 

Juggernauts also gain rage the more they fight. More rage = more ability use. Bounty Hunters have to actively manage heat or after a short while they're useless

 

Nice try comparing them, but if you want to do that try doing it with all the information

Edited January 6, 2012 by Mazikeen

[Sykomyke]

FYI, Smash has a 15 sec and when talented, no cost. Oil Slick has a 60 sec CD and adds heat regardless of talents

 

Juggernauts also gain rage the more they fight. More rage = more ability use. Bounty Hunters have to actively manage heat or after a short while they're useless

 

Nice try comparing them, but if you want to do that try doing it with all the information

 

While you are correct that the uptime/downtime is different....this statement is exactly what I'm talking about in people not being informed.

 

Smash has no cost only if you get the "Ruin" talent in Vengeance. Furthermore, fully talented it is actually 12 seconds; not 15. 0/10 Trolling attempt.

 

This is a tanking thread, as such that inherently means Immortal spec. If you go full Immortal it is *literally IMPOSSIBLE* to get Ruin. The only other way to reduce smashes cost is to get "Revenge" talent which requires stacks to be built up after deflecting/absorbing/parrying attacks at a low percentage (25%) rate. I think the only one here without information is you.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Sykomyke

[Mazikeen]

While you are correct that the uptime/downtime is different....this statement is exactly what I'm talking about in people not being informed.

 

Smash has no cost only if you get the "Ruin" talent in Vengeance. This is a tanking thread, as such that inherently means Immortal spec. If you go full Immortal it is *literally IMPOSSIBLE* to get Ruin. The only other way to reduce smashes cost is to get "Revenge" talent which requires stacks to be built up after deflecting/absorbing/parrying attacks at a low percentage (25%) rate. I think the only one here without information is you.

 

It still has a considerably smaller CD thus a higher uptime and a higher overall effect. If you're in combat your rage should be at least 50% at all times

[Sykomyke]

It still has a considerably smaller CD thus a higher uptime and a higher overall effect. If you're in combat your rage should be at least 50% at all times

 

Here: I finally did the math.

 

Let's assume that a single fight with an enemy takes 60 seconds.

Also, lets' assume that the enemies attack speed is 2, so in that 60 seconds they'll get 30 hits.

 

With Smash, their accuracy is reduced to 95% the entire fight so they'll hit 28.5 out of a total possible 30 hits.

 

 

With Oil Slick, their accuracy is reduced to 80% for 18 seconds. In a 18 second timespan, 9 hits occur. This totals on average of 7.2 hits.

The rest of the 42 seconds, we'll assume 100% accuracy. That's 21 hits.

In total Powertech gets 28.2 hits.

 

Juggernaut w/Smash=28.5 attacks hit by enemy.

Powertech w/Oil Slick=28.2 attacks hit by enemy.

 

In such a small sampling of hits the numbers are close together and as such don't show a huge disparity. However, Oil slick is better tuned for short term fights. As the shorter a fight is, the better returns Oil slick will see. The longer a fight is, Smash might edge out above Oil Slick, but just barely.

 

 

You were saying?

Edited January 6, 2012 by Sykomyke

[Pokupo]

Here: I finally did the math.

 

Let's assume that a single fight with an enemy takes 60 seconds.

Also, lets' assume that the enemies attack speed is 2, so in that 60 seconds they'll get 30 hits.

 

With Smash, their accuracy is reduced to 95% the entire fight so they'll hit 28.5 out of a total possible 30 hits.

 

 

With Oil Slick, their accuracy is reduced to 80% for 18 seconds. In a 18 second timespan, 9 hits occur. This totals on average of 7.2 hits.

The rest of the 42 seconds, we'll assume 100% accuracy. That's 21 hits.

In total Powertech gets 28.2 hits.

 

Juggernaut w/Smash=28.5 attacks hit by enemy.

Powertech w/Oil Slick=28.2 attacks hit by enemy.

 

In such a small sampling of hits the numbers are close together and as such don't show a huge disparity. However, Oil slick is better tuned for short term fights. As the shorter a fight is, the better returns Oil slick will see. The longer a fight is, Smash might edge out above Oil Slick, but just barely.

 

 

You were saying?

 

And once your fight goes over the 1min Mark and Oil Slick Refreshes then I think Power Tech will pull ahead. Then as the fight Approaches 2min the Jugger will start to gain Ground again, untill you break that 2min Barrier.

 

Not Aruging just adding to the conversation.

[jd-inflames]

Dark Charge is used to self heal for a small percentage. Can also be buffed up by overcharge saber to heal for a significant amount.

 

Yes I'm 50. What an asinine assumption to make that I'm not 50. And what "threat talents" in vengeance? After going 31 points into Immortal you only have 10 points leftover to distribute in the other trees. There are NONE. I repeat NO threat talents in the first 2 tiers of vengeance or rage. I think you are seriously misinformed or you are not conveying your point properly. Either way I take a huge affront to your misinformed assumptions.

 

As for having your survival cooldowns not hotkeyed. Yea, would be nice to hotkey them, I don't have them hotkeyed either. But it's not necessary IMO. Do we have a lot of abilities? Yes. So do a bunch of other classes. Not everything is going to be used in every situation.

 

Sorry it took so long to respond, I've been a rather busy fella.

 

I'm sorry if you assumed I was being silly by asking if you were 50, it was a legitimate question. The games been out a week, and 9 out of 10 people here are NOT 50 yet.

 

As for threat talents in Rage or Vengeance, what about the 6% to strength from Dreadnought? What about the AoE threat increase from Decimate?

[StaalDK]

I have both a Juggernaught and a Powertech, both running as tanks, once they are both 50 I will make a few runs in flashpoints on them both to show the ups and downs, with that said I consider myself a good tank.

Powertech's does not really have a heat problem when tanking, if you do, you are doing it wrong and spamming all your abilities, as a PT you are not supposed to do insane DPS but rather keep your threat high, and lets face it, a PT has no problems keeping their threat up, at least I havent had any problems with it yet.

Where as as a Sith Juggernaut I have to run around as a headless chicken sometimes due to limited range on my abilities, AoE's and single target.

As a PT I hardly ever have to use any of my taunts, where as on my Juggernaut I use them a lot.

 

When it comes to taking damage, the PT seems to be in the better place aswell, I always feel more tanky as a PT, and this is with Shield Rating + Arbsorb as main over defense, yet I still come up with a decent amount of defense on him.

 

I enjoy the Juggernaut a lot, but there are a few things which I would love to see added to them, including Force Pull which they had in beta mind you, and made gathering up aggro that much easier, and an added threat generation for your saber throw, like grapple has a high threat effect associated with it.

 

As a PT you can basicly use Death from Above and hold aggro on pack after pack with your AoE flamethrower (not saying spam it) and still maintain to use any other abilities you feel like.

Where as it feels that much more difficult as a Sith Juggernaut to maintain AoE threat.

 

Now I am of the mind that in fights I don't want any mobs at all, be it strong, elites or weak enemies hitting my team, which is no problem on the PT, but a problem on the Juggernaut, which is why I completely stopped trying to get the weak enemies on me, and instead focus on building aggro on the rest, while the group simply kills off the weak stuff.

What makes this a problem is often if the group uses AoE, we have our Sweeping Slash, but compared to the AoE damage of Sorcs and BH's, it makes it difficult to maintain aggro without the use of your AoE taunt, even with Smash.

The main problem here is the lack of high threat abilities, being in your tanking stance (Soresu Form) should add threat generation to your Smash and Sweeping Slash, so it would make the job that much better as a Juggernaut.

 

 

In clonclusion I don't feel like the Juggernaut is a weak tanking class, but he does lack more threat.

Where as I firmly believe that the Powertech is perfectly fine where it is.

 

I have not tried the shadow nor assassin, but I will try it at one point in the future.

 

And in case anyone is wondering, no I am not level 50 on my tanks, they are both lvl 40.