What do we use: +Crit Rating or +Power?

[SinDantes]

As the title states, I'm very curious as to what everyone is stacking on their Ninja Op characters? I feel that higher crits are better sometimes, but that base damage increase in Power does sound nice.

 

Also one thing to note is that ALL of the Flashpoint gear, except for the vibroknife, has the +Power stat, but MOST of the Mission reward gear has the +Crit Rating stat...

 

Have I gone the less viable route by stacking +Crit Rating? As I level more and more I'm getting more and more confused here.

 

Any insight would be much appreciated!

 

Thank you.

[zootzoot]

As the title states, I'm very curious as to what everyone is stacking on their Ninja Op characters? I feel that higher crits are better sometimes, but that base damage increase in Power does sound nice.

 

Also one thing to note is that ALL of the Flashpoint gear, except for the vibroknife, has the +Power stat, but MOST of the Mission reward gear has the +Crit Rating stat...

 

Have I gone the less viable route by stacking +Crit Rating? As I level more and more I'm getting more and more confused here.

 

Any insight would be much appreciated!

 

Thank you.

 

I've been prioritizing Power over Crit when I'm making gear choices since I heal most of the time and the consistent throughput increase from power is better IMO to the RNG nature of Crit.

 

You'd have to math it out for a DPS spec and it would be based on what type of fight.

[Selais]

You'd have to math it out for a DPS spec and it would be based on what type of fight.

 

This.

 

I use crit and surge. I like big numbers

[SinDantes]

Thanks for your input guys.

 

I'll try and round up a set of +power gear and see if I can notice a big difference.

[Phated]

I've been stacking a lot of crit (and surge), but I'm thinking it's not a good idea to completely ignore power either. Higher base damage = higher crits and more consistent dps after all. Our best dps output may actually come from a healthy mix of the two. It just remains to be seen what that healthy mix is. Edited January 4, 2012 by Phated

[Trevock]

Here are my stats right now:

 

1250 Cunning

1100 Endurance

38% Crit

87% Surge (Crit Damage)

93% Accuracy

2-3% PVP expertise

 

And I can't remember my Power for the life of me right now, but I have been stacking +crit and +surge lately. Might need more power though.

 

Last night after I did my weekly and got 4 bags, I got a Champ bracer from one of them, Cent Comms from the others.

 

Then I did a few more WZ's, got 200 merc and 200 wz comms....grabbed my last bag of the night, and popped a Champ Chest piece. I was pleased. =)

 

Right now, if I pop my relic and grab the expertise powerup in Huttball, I can lay down a 4.7-5.2k crit on my opener.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Trevock

[SinDantes]

Very true, I'm just not sure how efficient it would be to mix so many secondary stats.

 

I know +Surge compliments +Crit Rating well, but does it compliment +Power the same?

 

EDIT: I haven't delved too deep into the PvP as of yet, because of the awful ratio of Huttball:Other WZ's. Is it worth it to spend more time getting WZ commendations for the PvP Gear, though?

Edited January 4, 2012 by SinDantes

[Selais]

Lvl 50 pvp gear is the best you'll get if you're not raiding. Absolutely worth getting commendations saved up. I'm heal specced but I can hit 4.4k or so with the expertise buff and relic, will have to grab a surge adrenal and see how much I can add to it.

[Phated]

Very true, I'm just not sure how efficient it would be to mix so many secondary stats.

 

I know +Surge compliments +Crit Rating well, but does it compliment +Power the same?

 

EDIT: I haven't delved too deep into the PvP as of yet, because of the awful ratio of Huttball:Other WZ's. Is it worth it to spend more time getting WZ commendations for the PvP Gear, though?

 

Well without mixing them, you're either getting more damage all the time and few crits or lots of crits that don't hit as hard. I don't know what the ideal mix would be, but I'm starting to think that somewhere in the middle would be the best way to go.

 

*In no way do I claim this to be an expert opinion lol.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Phated

[reillan]

If you stack Surge, you also need to stack Crit.

 

Crit + Surge >> Crit + Power OR Surge + Power

 

For boss fights, I would actually recommend stacking Accuracy and Power, rather than Crit & Surge, simply because of the unreasonably huge benefit Accuracy has on DPS (although Crit & Surge are much better for PvP because of the need to one-shot people).

Edited January 4, 2012 by reillan

[Phated]

If you stack Surge, you also need to stack Crit.

 

Crit + Surge >> Crit + Power OR Surge + Power

 

For boss fights, I would actually recommend stacking Accuracy and Power, rather than Crit & Surge, simply because of the unreasonably huge benefit Accuracy has on DPS (although Crit & Surge are much better for PvP because of the need to one-shot people).

 

I did some quick math and I'd have to say that Power > Surge for anything over 1%.

 

For example:

102% dmg * 1.50 (crit multiplier) = 153 -2% Power

100% dmg * 1.52 (crit multiplier) = 152 -2% Surge

 

In addition, your normal, non-crit hits are going to be higher with more power.

 

That doesn't really help with the crit vs power argument, but I would fairly confidently say power > surge.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Phated

[Redbeers]

I did some quick math and I'd have to say that Power > Surge for anything over 1%.

 

For example:

102% dmg * 1.50 (crit multiplier) = 153 -2% Power

100% dmg * 1.52 (crit multiplier) = 152 -2% Surge

 

In addition, your normal, non-crit hits are going to be higher with more power.

 

That doesn't really help with the crit vs power argument, but I would fairly confidently say power > surge.

 

I <3 smart people. Thanks.

[Lucubration]

I did some quick math and I'd have to say that Power > Surge for anything over 1%.

 

For example:

102% dmg * 1.50 (crit multiplier) = 153 -2% Power

100% dmg * 1.52 (crit multiplier) = 152 -2% Surge

 

In addition, your normal, non-crit hits are going to be higher with more power.

 

That doesn't really help with the crit vs power argument, but I would fairly confidently say power > surge.

 

Does this take into account factors and item values? I'm just thinking that 1 Power may not equal 1 Surge in item values, or even if it does, the amount of Power to equal 1% Damage may not equal the amount of Surge Rating to equal 1% Crit Damage Bonus.

[Phated]

Does this take into account factors and item values? I'm just thinking that 1 Power may not equal 1 Surge in item values, or even if it does, the amount of Power to equal 1% Damage may not equal the amount of Surge Rating to equal 1% Crit Damage Bonus.

 

As I said, it was quick math and I don't claim to be any kind of expert. I didn't take time to figure out item ratings or any of that. Just saying that 1% power is better than 1% surge. That may or may not translate to 1 point of power being better than 1 point of surge.

 

And again, this math ONLY relates to your crit damage. Surge does NOTHING for you except on crits whereas power benefits you every time you hit, crit or not.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Phated

[Trevock]

As I said, it was quick math and I don't claim to be any kind of expert. I didn't take time to figure out item ratings or any of that. Just saying that 1% power is better than 1% surge. That may or may not translate to 1 point of power being better than 1 point of surge.

 

And again, this math ONLY relates to your crit damage. Surge does NOTHING for you except on crits whereas power benefits you every time you hit, crit or not.

 

True, but the way the mods/enhancements are made..if you devote to POWER, you will lack on crit rating overall. Sure you may do more base damage, but in PVP it's about burst for our class. You get in the damage fast, and get out.

 

I'm not saying ignore power but you want to make sure you DO in fact crit and get the damage in before you get destroyed, etc. =)

[Phated]

True, but the way the mods/enhancements are made..if you devote to POWER, you will lack on crit rating overall. Sure you may do more base damage, but in PVP it's about burst for our class. You get in the damage fast, and get out.

 

I'm not saying ignore power but you want to make sure you DO in fact crit and get the damage in before you get destroyed, etc. =)

 

I wasn't really talking about power vs crit. Like I said I'm still up in the air on that one, the math is a lot more complicated there. I know a lot of crit comes with surge, so obviously if you have a choice of crit + surge vs power then things change. The only thing I can confidently say at this point is that if you get a choice of power or surge, I would take the power.

[SinDantes]

All good info here, and it seems there isn't a huge consensus on what to concentrate on, which I view as a plus for this game.

 

It seems almost every combination is viable for PvE.

[Phated]

I did a little more thinking and a little more math on the power vs crit argument. Again, this is very basic math, just to get an idea.

 

Example: 1000 base damage over 100 hits. 25% power vs 25% crit

 

25% power - Total dmg = 125,000

1250 dmg * 1.00 * 100 = 125000 dmg over 100 hits (assuming 0 crit)

 

25% crit - Total dmg = 112,500

1000 dmg * 1.00 * 75 = 75000

1000 dmg * 1.50 * 25 = 37500

75000 + 37500 = 112500 dmg over 100 hits (assuming 0 power and 0 surge)

 

So over the long term 25% power is going to do more damage than 25% crit. There's a difference of 12,500, which averages to an extra 125 dmg per swing in this example. In PvE, this is a pretty big difference. Obviously for PvP the burst damage of crit is going to weigh a little higher since you're rarely going to stand there and slug it out for 100 hits on another player.

 

(I didn't calculate how many points of power you have to have to get 25%, nor did I calculate it for crit. I also didn't throw surge into the mix because that further complicates things. You have to start somewhere simple before you throw in a bunch of extra variables.)

Edited January 4, 2012 by Phated

[SinDantes]

Awesome calcs, Phated. This thread has really turned into a good discussion!

[Trevock]

Good stuff Phated.

 

It would appear that in PvE raiding, power seems to prove better. In PvP whether it be open world PvP or in WZ's, I would probably say that crit would be better.

 

The real question here now (for PvP) is, which is better? Crit + Power vs Crit + Surge? =)

 

Can you continue processing numbers on this? I failed basic math.

[Zerikin_Loukbel]

I did some basic numbers on this myself and it seems that once you have a "reasonable" crit rate that power and surge are best for healing. It looks like surge points are worth slightly more than power if you average everything out.

[Phated]

I did the math on surge and posted it earlier in the thread. Power will give you higher crits than an equal % of surge. In addition it will make your non crits hit harder, so power > surge in ANY situation.

 

Also, I plugged that formula from my last post into a quick spreadsheet so I could easily put in different numbers and I could not find a single combination of crit + surge + power that would yield more sustained dps than purely stacking power.

 

So it's looking like power is going to be what we're stacking for PvE dps and either full crit or crit+power for burst in PvP.

 

*Still not claiming to be an expert theorycrafter. This is just what my limited math skills are coming up with, if somebody with more experience comes up with a different formula to prove me wrong I'll gladly take back what I've said.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Phated

[SinDantes]

I did the math on surge and posted it earlier in the thread. Power will give you higher crits than an equal % of surge. In addition it will make your non crits hit harder, so power > surge in ANY situation.

 

Also, I plugged that formula from my last post into a quick spreadsheet so I could easily put in different numbers and I could not find a single combination of crit + surge + power that would yield more sustained dps than purely stacking power.

 

So it's looking like power is going to be what we're stacking for PvE dps and either full crit or crit+power for burst in PvP.

 

*Still not claiming to be an expert theorycrafter. This is just what my limited math skills are coming up with, if somebody with more experience comes up with a different formula to prove me wrong I'll gladly take back what I've said.

 

This makes sense to me.

 

What you're saying is this:

 

• Power = Increases base damage, which concurrently increases Crit damage
  
• Critical Rating = Increases chance to hit crits
  
• Surge = Increases Crit damage
  

 

That right there makes it pretty obvious which to stack up. Why put points into Crit Rating, when it does not guarantee a Crit every hit, thereby making Surge pointless as well.

 

I like where this is going. The more information the better! Please correct me if I'm retarded.

Edited January 4, 2012 by SinDantes

[Frosten]

This makes sense to me.

 

What you're saying is this:

 

• Power = Increases base damage, which concurrently increases Crit damage
  
• Critical Rating = Increases chance to hit crits
  
• Surge = Increases Crit damage
  

 

That right there makes it pretty obvious which to stack up. Why put points into Crit Rating, when it does not guarantee a Crit every hit, thereby making Surge pointless as well.

 

I like where this is going. The more information the better! Please correct me if I'm retarded.

 

It all comes down to one thing...

 

PvE or PvP?

 

For PvP you want to get that high RNG chance and you want to hope for some RNG to do some hard burst as operative, because let's face it our focus should not be sustained damage in PvP.

 

In PvE however it seems that power is much more valuable, if the math done earlier in this thread is correct. It's easy to see that basically it's correct, but with different valuables, diminishing returns and what not, the math could be improved - but it will be very advanced.

 

So yeah PvP = Crit + Surge (Can't leave one of them out, because it neglects the reason for the other).

 

PvE = Power.

[epixhints]

I'm going to post this so there isn't any misinformation going around: what Phated has posted is absolutely accurate (that is, 1% Power Bonus is more valuable than 1% Crit Bonus or 1% Surge Bonus), this DOES NOT MEAN 1 Power Rating > 1 Crit Rating > 1 Surge Rating.

 

Ratings are converted into percentages through some wacky formulas. And since Power Rating does not grant +x% damage, but a flat bonus damage -- gaining a 1% Power Bonus requires more and more power rating as the stat increases.

 

Basically, Power is a linear increase in DPS (every point adds a flat +X dps). Crit and Surge are exponential increases in DPS (every point adds a variable, decreasing +X dps).

 

Incoming some basics of theorycrafting:

 

TLDR; Math is hard. 1 point of Power may or may not be more valuable than 1 point of Crit depending on gear level. The more Crit/Surge you have, the less valuable it is. Power is a fairly linear DPS increase.

 

Power gives you a flat +0.23 damage and +0.17 healing bonus per point

 

Crit is a bit different. The formula for bonus crit chance from crit rating is:

30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( CritRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.45 ) )

 

This gives us some valuable information such as:

The maximum bonus from critical rating is +30% crit.

There is a gradual diminishing return, going from 0 to 1 crit rating grants more +crit than going from 100 to 101.

 

 

Surge Rating is similar to Crit:

50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( SurgeRating / max(Level,20) ) / 0.1 )

 

The same information can be derived from that as well. This time, you cap out at +50% crit damage from surge rating.

 

The goal is to find some number where the bonus crit or surge ratings give less overall damage (or healing) than power rating.

 

The short answer is, it depends!

 

The long answer is.. it depends on your itemization budgets -- certain tiers of items will be pretty well balanced between choices. In the simplest case, you will have X Rating Points spread around your various stats. So if a full set of Tier A has 500 Rating Points spread between Accuracy, Surge, Power, and Crit, there is some optimal point of A Accuracy, S Surge, P Power, and C Crit such that A+S+P+C=500 that provides more damage than any other values of A,S,P and C. When you upgrade to Tier B which hass 600 Rating Points, the ratios of stats may change.

 

Finding out these values of A,S,P and C is a bit of spreadsheeting i wish i had the patience to do.

 

Damage is calculated a bit roundabout as well. It is based on spell coefficients and some constants based on skill level.

 

TLDR; Math is hard. 1 point of Power may or may not be more valuable than 1 point of Crit depending on gear level. The more Crit/Surge you have, the less valuable it is. Power is fairly linear.

Edited January 4, 2012 by epixhints