PvP Brackets is a BAD Idea

[Areoss]

Nice long avoidance of what I said. It's ok because you can't counter it and you know it.

 

Avoidance of what?

 

"Your wrong and Im right" ?

 

I got that part.

[Gwal]

OP, you kind of missed one thing. We already effectively have level 50 twinks running around with the level 10s.

 

I know when playing a lvl 10-20 alt I would rather fight against a level 30 twink than a level 50 twink.

 

1-39

 

40-50

 

Thats all you would need for the brackets to really even the playing field without completely screwing the qeue times.

[RamataKahn]

Avoidance of what?

 

"Your wrong and Im right" ?

 

I got that part.

 

The fact that there is no low level twinking in this game, which was the whole basis for your argument against brackets.

[CapuchinSeven]

I had to do a bit of research to back up what I thought existed in the game and it does. It wasn't a feature from launch but if you look up "Ascended Courage" you will find that it is a buff that increases the stats of characters who are in the first 7 levels of a bracket.

 

And it meant nothing once players started getting PVP gear, Warriors running around the map two shooting anyone two levels below them. It was no different there.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, modern MMO gamers just can't play for the sake of playing, they have to get a cookie. PVP cookies just let bad PVPers feel better about their skills and create huge gaps between those have have grinded PVP gear and those that didn't. The only change I'd make to TOR PVP is to move the level 50s away from everyone else.

[Safgril]

I COMPLETELY Disagree with this post.

 

Why?

 

Because I can actually take on level 50s on my own, and have been since at least level 25. I don't need to prove it because I have done it.

 

How I do this?

 

Most people who rush to max level don't really know the ins and outs of their character. They are easy to push out of their comfort zone. You do something wild that they don't expect and they stop mashing their face into their keyboard to win and start thinking "what do I do now?".

 

I've had level 50's stood still turning around on the spot and running away (melee classes too).

 

Simply because they are clueless on what they are supposed to do in a new situation.

 

Use initiative instead of tunnel vision "LEVEL 50?! I CANT BEAT THAT!"

 

No I am not referring to 2+ attacking them. No i'm not talking about jumping them when they are weak. I am generally talking about the ability to take them on head to head and win at a lower level.

 

No one can do this at level 10 though. Any one who believes otherwise is either an idiot or a moron. You dont have the abilities to take them on. But when you start getting some you can really mess them up.

 

 

come to The Fatman server and you will feel the GEAR GAP.... i face 50s who KNOW how to play their characters and its just one of those things that there is nothing you can do but just do as much damage to help your team before you die.

 

guys are already decked out in champion gear and up already after a few weeks.

[Beeteel]

I havent read the whole thing but I guess its about the brackets and expertise at lower lvls issue.

 

For me PVP would really be killed if we kept the bolstering system and intested of brackets implemented gear with exxpertise at low lvls. Reason is that I think gear SHOULD matter, I like the feeling of putting on a better pvp piece for the first time. The lvl gap SOULD feel like a lvl gap because u worked for it.

 

And for u who will jump me with the "says the 50 BM", I only have a 25 scoundrel yet. Christmas travels u know

[Areoss]

I havent read the whole thing but I guess its about the brackets and expertise at lower lvls issue.

 

For me PVP would really be killed if we kept the bolstering system and intested of brackets implemented gear with exxpertise at low lvls. Reason is that I think gear SHOULD matter, I like the feeling of putting on a better pvp piece for the first time. The lvl gap SOULD feel like a lvl gap because u worked for it.

 

And for u who will jump me with the "says the 50 BM", I only have a 25 scoundrel yet. Christmas travels u know

 

I reached level 40 last night.

 

Its not about the whole expertise thing. You'll actually see my point if you read it all if you take the time.

[Areoss]

The fact that there is no low level twinking in this game, which was the whole basis for your argument against brackets.

 

Read my post fully, not the first few lines. Then come back to me.

[Amythiel]

I COMPLETELY Disagree with this post.

 

Because I can actually take on level 50s on my own, and have been since at least level 25. I don't need to prove it because I have done it.

 

I've had level 50's stood still turning around on the spot and running away (melee classes too)

 

Sorry mate but there are 50's and there are 50's. A fresh 50 with no PvP gear is no better than a 30 (you're still missing vital abilities on some classes when lower), they do have the talent point advantage but that is negligible. I'm inclined to think those are the 50's you were lucky enough to beat. Try doing that against a 50 in PvP gear, good luck.

 

As to the brackets idea and people who are against it because of twinking. No one suggested removing the bolster buff so where did the twink idea come from? A bolstered twink is still as good as a bolstered average Joe when it comes to HP and damage. That said a 10-49 and a 50 only bracket is all that's needed.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Amythiel

[BDutch]

1 bracket, 10-50, no expertise stat, problem solved.

[Feds]

I COMPLETELY Disagree with this post.

 

Why?

 

Because I can actually take on level 50s on my own, and have been since at least level 25. I don't need to prove it because I have done it.

 

How I do this?

 

Most people who rush to max level don't really know the ins and outs of their character. They are easy to push out of their comfort zone. You do something wild that they don't expect and they stop mashing their face into their keyboard to win and start thinking "what do I do now?".

 

I've had level 50's stood still turning around on the spot and running away (melee classes too).

 

Simply because they are clueless on what they are supposed to do in a new situation.

 

Use initiative instead of tunnel vision "LEVEL 50?! I CANT BEAT THAT!"

 

No I am not referring to 2+ attacking them. No i'm not talking about jumping them when they are weak. I am generally talking about the ability to take them on head to head and win at a lower level.

 

No one can do this at level 10 though. Any one who believes otherwise is either an idiot or a moron. You dont have the abilities to take them on. But when you start getting some you can really mess them up.

 

Wow you beat bad 50s... grats on that.

 

How about all the other 50s in full pvp gear that take you down in 2-3 hits, how exactly do you strategize beating them?

[Neo-Metalsonic]

Did you even play the game?

 

It's obvious already that sith inquisitors and jedi consulars are overpowered because PvP is currently Hutt Ball.

 

Only Hutt Ball Hutt Ball and even more Hutt Ball...

 

In Hutt Ball they can do the massive speed boost to capture the ball very quickly and there is nothing you can do about it really. They have very good CC and are the best 1 vs 1 classes to from what I've seen.

 

Although I think it's more because Hutt Ball is just a terrible unbalanced crap warzone.

[Benodach]

Twinking is an invalid argument against lower level brackets. Twinking in lower level brackets does not and could not exist. Why?

 

1) Bolster buff at lower levels (10-20 level gap) does equalize things tangibly

 

2) As others have pointed out, blue and purple gear is easily obtained

 

3) Most importantly, a player automagically levels out of a bracket BY GAINING XP

 

Lowbie twinks only exist in an environment where you do NOT gain xp for pvp. They can then sit at the top of a bracket indefinitely and farm those who are newly entering the bracket.

 

Earning xp for pvp and thus leveling out of brackets removes the concept of twinks as they will always, ALWAYS be pushed into the next higher bracket after winning some rounds.

 

---

 

There needs to be some sort of bracketed system. It need not be as rigid as WoW or Rift with 10 level increments. There's nothing wrong with doing things differently, for example, 10-29 and 30-49. But 50s should only ever be allowed to pvp in warzones with other 50s.

 

You never, ever turn the level cap population with their end gear upon the lowbies of the game unless we're talking about world pvp.

 

Warzones, arenas and the like are meant to be competitive in the spirit of good sportsmanship and allowing players with end game gear to prey upon lowbies is just poor development strategy. The excuse that 50s would have no one to queue with in the short term is irrelevant.

 

An MMO with a hopeful lifespan of several years should NEVER cater to the minority who wishes to powerlevel through the game with no respect for its content.

[Areoss]

I like how people instantly assume that when I say I beat 50's that they are instantly terribad.

 

Sure half wont know their class... others were geared and i've taken them down with a good fight.

 

Don't instantly assume because you cant, that no one else can.

[YooJaeSuk]

There are 2 kinds of lvl 50s...

 

Fresh ones that end up with even lower or equal stats to a bolstered lvl 10, and probably hasn't pvp'ed much. I could kill them too with my lowbie, but they r just like any other lowbies almost, nothing to be proud of.

 

Then there are those with quite a bit of pvp gear (pretty common now). At worst, they are still OK players because they've probably played at least 100 warzones, unless they botted. Combined with the gear, talents, abilities, I don't think even the best lvl 10 pvp'er in the world can beat these people, at a decent success rate.

[CapuchinSeven]

1 bracket, 10-50, no expertise stat, problem solved.

 

AH! So true, I HATE PVP stats and gear, it's just a crutch for bad PVPers so they can feel like they are "owning".

 

That's why these posts are getting on my nerves, I killed level 50s and level 25 and I'm bothered and even killed by level 25's at 50. Put on expertise armour though and the fun is gone for both sides (for me anyway, I don't enjoy 4 shooting new players).

 

If I had my way, rubbish PVP stats would be gone from MMOs.

[RamataKahn]

I like how people instantly assume that when I say I beat 50's that they are instantly terribad.

 

Sure half wont know their class... others were geared and i've taken them down with a good fight.

 

Don't instantly assume because you cant, that no one else can.

 

You won't take down a 50 that knows how to play and has expertise, end of story, period.

[Kopassu]

^^ What he said

 

I can actually take on level 50s on my own, and have been since at least level 25,

 

Areoss never beat any 50s at level 25 and honestly you would have to be ignorant to the game to believe that it would even be possible 1 time out of 100,000,000. Any game where a level 25 who knows the game well in full pvp gear COULD beat a level 50 who knows the game well in NO pvp gear would be a broken game. Too bad its not an achievement you could potentially link in chat to prove it...

 

I don't need to prove it because I have done it.

 

Oh, more evidence you are full of garbage. I don't need to prove I shot down 76239 Nazi planes in world war 2, swam across the entire atlantic and pacific oceans back to back nude or bedded your mom while your Dad watched and cheered me on either, because I have done them

 

50's with expertise = the new twink and brackets will save this games busted warzones, period

[AmagonofBloodfin]

come to The Fatman server and you will feel the GEAR GAP.... i face 50s who KNOW how to play their characters and its just one of those things that there is nothing you can do but just do as much damage to help your team before you die.

 

guys are already decked out in champion gear and up already after a few weeks.

 

that would be me!

 

and I thank you for your valor!

 

cmn

[KURLS]

this is a typical knee jerk reaction from bioware to cover up what's turning out to be some pretty lame pvp content.

[clocknane]

Queue the rage before people read my post since they only read my title.

 

 

 

 

 

Quite finished?

 

Ok good. Now to those who want to hear me out.

 

 

PvP Brackets is generally an accepted idea, because of Warcraft. People think its the godsend... but what did that bring to the table? Twinks.

 

These are the main issues

 

*****Skip if you know this part*****

Description of Twinks: Someone who collects the best possible gear at a given level range to have the best advantage over most people so they can 1 shot anyone.

*******************************

 

Now why would that be bad in this game you might ask?

 

Well the gear may not make a huge difference in this game currently, because of the bolster system thats in place.

 

Now... for brackets to be implemented, they would have to make a huge overhaul of everyone, and the system.

There are several things people are not considering when suggesting the idea of PvP Brackets, simply because they got beat down at level 10 because of a level 50...

 

*****Most important example*****

 

The rate classes get their abilities.

 

Everyone knows that the Inquisitors and Consular's get their abilities such as their CC. They have been given these abilities to help increase their survivability while leveling... Now this does give them the advantage at PvP but this works fine because of fighting people who are of different levels.

 

Now if you change the PvP system so they have brackets, Classes like this that gain the advantage early, would completely dominate the Warzones and the forums would be in fits of rage even more so that classes are over powered.

 

Put in a level 50 only bracket? This would be possible. But this also isn't a good idea for launch, since most people aren't 50 yet. There are people who have power leveled all the way up and got there first. Well done... but who would you fight against then?

 

Later down the line a level 50 bracket would be fantastic. I'm sure this will come about too.

 

****World PvP****

 

This needs sorting. Simple as that. It works fine mechanically. I've come across the other side while leveling and had my fair share of scraps.

 

But there is no rewards for it. A simple fix really.

 

******TL;DR******

 

Go Rage somewhere else.

 

While you bring up some valid points, I do not agree with the main basis of your post, brackets being a bad idea. There is one MAIN reason why, there is too much of a difference in skill trees, top end dmg (if you are fighting someone 20 levels lower you are gonna hit them for max dmg, if you are not you wont) The bolster mechanic just doesn't work properly with the level diff and skill point spent vy a level 49 or 50 vs a level 25, 30, or even 35. Brackets give people a better chance of fighting a even matched foe.

 

For example, I am a level 37 commando and also have a level 39 jedi sent. When I fight people my own level or a 2-3 levels above or below, I win some and I lose some. Anything over 7-8 levels, I struggle bad, and if they are 10+ levels, forget it. There is a HUGE difference even with the bolster mechanic in place, therefore, I think brackets are a good idea. There is one major concern I have though and that is queue times for warzones since the amount of people will be cut majorly due to level limitations.

[clocknane]

AH! So true, I HATE PVP stats and gear, it's just a crutch for bad PVPers so they can feel like they are "owning".

 

That's why these posts are getting on my nerves, I killed level 50s and level 25 and I'm bothered and even killed by level 25's at 50. Put on expertise armour though and the fun is gone for both sides (for me anyway, I don't enjoy 4 shooting new players).

 

If I had my way, rubbish PVP stats would be gone from MMOs.

 

I was one of the people among TONS of others before this game came out that said leave pvp based gear or gear with a resilience based stat out of the game for this reason, and low and behold, they are already having to make changes already. However, with that said, I am not sure taking expertise out would completely solve the problem. Fighting someone 20 levels higher than you is almost a moot cause because of the skill tree difference. The bolster mechanic helps, but not enough to account for the difference in skill tree points spent.

[Uuhwee]

Well the gear may not make a huge difference in this game currently, because of the bolster system thats in place.

 

 

Stopped reading after that.......................

[djvapid]

You have a good argument, OP, for support of keeping 50's in the same bracket as everyone else. You even reason away the whole "50 stomping lowbie" thing that /everyone/ except you seems to be having a problem with.

 

Let's assume you're right and the rushed 50 doesn't know how to play his class. So his inexperience makes up for his decked out expertise.

 

Let's backtrack a little: What does expertise do? Maxed out, it provides you with a 20% damage buff against players who do not have any expertise. (This percentage goes down with the more expertise your target has.) It also causes players attacking you to hit you for 20% less damage. Thus, giving you a 40% advantage over anyone without the stat.

 

Now, let's return to your example: "The level 50 doesn't know how to use his class yet."

 

What happens when they learn how to play their class properly? All the sudden, that hefty advantage is glaringly obvious as they begin to curbstomp anyone and everyone who doesn't have an equal amount of expertise.

 

This is all assuming none of them are any good at PvP and the stat is just a crutch. Eventually, they'll learn. And when this problem, which seems isolated right now, becomes an epidemic, what will be your argument to support it then, OP?

[MonsAlpha]

I agree with the world PVP thing. If you're on a PVP server, you're sort of expecting good, world PVP but meh, needs a lot of work. Edited January 6, 2012 by MonsAlpha