Is vanguard a ranged class?

[origional]

This is an mmo, so when talking class design/playstyle you have to take into account that when you'r gimping yourself you'r also gimping your group. Something that becomes painfull once bossees start having enrage timers. No one's saying that the vanguard can't fight at range, just that it's not what the class is designed to do.

 

Which is why I said you play with the right tactics for the right situation and that the vanguard allows a variety of tactics to be used, not just close in fighting.

 

Maybe its because i've been forced to play in a certain way that i've learnt to use the vanguard at range effectively. I broke my arm over christmas and it hurts to go round button mashing, so i've bound Hammer shot and Explosive charge to my mouse and pretty much just use those two abilities on everything.

 

Clearly though there are some people on here who just cant get it through their heads that you dont have to be doing the maximum amount of damage every second of a fight. I blame wow for making stoopid troopers.

[NrOneHero]

They can be dps but they won't deal as much damage as the commando advanced class does. Most of the time its up close and sometimes ranged but if you want to be a ranged damage dealer then I would go with the commando advanced class.

 

Wrong! This is a misconception!

 

Commando has 1 healing tree and two dps trees, Vanguard has 1 tank tree and 2 dps trees.

 

The difference between the two is in their strenghts and weaknesses as I see it.

 

Vanguard has greater mobility wich is a strenght but also need to be in melee/short range to maximise their dps wich is a weakness as you will have to move more (potential loss in dps) if it is a mobile fight AND you will put more stress on the healers as you will generally take more aoe damage then a ranged class will.

 

Commando are a ranged class wich mean they dont have to move around as much in mobile fights wich is a strenght and can more easily avoid incoming aoe damage putting less stress on the healers wich is ofc also a strenght. The weakness of Commando is that they dont have the great mobility of a Vanguard.

 

Point is they both have their strenghts and weaknesses and they play totally different. But there is absolutely no reason to why the Commande "should" do more dps then the Vanguard! Bioware agrees on this whatever class it is ;P

 

Bioware has stated that their ultimate goal is that ALL dps speccs will do equally much dps.

[NrOneHero]

Which is why I said you play with the right tactics for the right situation and that the vanguard allows a variety of tactics to be used, not just close in fighting.

 

Maybe its because i've been forced to play in a certain way that i've learnt to use the vanguard at range effectively. I broke my arm over christmas and it hurts to go round button mashing, so i've bound Hammer shot and Explosive charge to my mouse and pretty much just use those two abilities on everything.

 

Clearly though there are some people on here who just cant get it through their heads that you dont have to be doing the maximum amount of damage every second of a fight. I blame wow for making stoopid troopers.

 

That depends on what your intentions with the game is! I

f you want to be able to be a high endgame lvl Operation player as dps you pretty damn well have to do the most damage you can possible muster every damn seccond of the fight, because if your not it could very much mean that you will be wiping your raid!

 

And if all the dps:ers were thinking like you to themselves "I dont have to be doing the maximum amount of damage every second of a fight" you will have a VERY gimped raid that wont make it very far into high endgame and also SHOULDNT do so.

 

You can call us "stoopid troopers" all you want but only by listening to that sentence alone "dont have to be doing the maximum amount of damage every second of a fight" tells me that you havnt been doing any high endgame content in wow or any other decent mmorpg whatsoever.

And by high endgame I mean killing the hardest endbosses BEFORE they are nerfed to oblivion (no, killing f.e Lichking normal mode 2 months after the first guilds killed him is NOT high endgame content! Killing him on hardmode not too long after the topguilds is high endgame content!

To do this you have to make damn sure you are "doing the maximum amount of damage every second of a fight"!

Edited January 3, 2012 by NrOneHero

[origional]

You can call us "stoopid troopers" all you want but only by listening to that sentence alone "dont have to be doing the maximum amount of damage every second of a fight" tells me that you havnt been doing any high endgame content in wow or any other decent mmorpg whatsoever.

 

Thankfully this isnt wow and I dont want people like yourself turning into a gear score fest and telling people they cant play the game the way they want to because you dont think they are good enough.

 

Whats the point of playing with other people if you are just going to demand they all be exactly the same?

[va_wanderer]

Thankfully this isnt wow and I dont want people like yourself turning into a gear score fest and telling people they cant play the game the way they want to because you dont think they are good enough.

 

Whats the point of playing with other people if you are just going to demand they all be exactly the same?

 

If the game demands maximum ability to do top-end content, then people will demand that out of their party. At which point, you will find yourself out in the cold if you aren't a cookie-cutter. That's just humans being humans and wanting success, not a unique snowflake that fails because the game makes it "do this or wipe".

 

And yes, this game is, at the core very WoW-like and unless the devs deliberately set it up that "optimal" isn't always so (tough that), you'll be looking at a lot of endgame instances from the outside.

[origional]

If the game demands maximum ability to do top-end content, then people will demand that out of their party. At which point, you will find yourself out in the cold if you aren't a cookie-cutter. That's just humans being humans and wanting success, not a unique snowflake that fails because the game makes it "do this or wipe".

 

And yes, this game is, at the core very WoW-like and unless the devs deliberately set it up that "optimal" isn't always so (tough that), you'll be looking at a lot of endgame instances from the outside.

 

At which point i'll move on to another game. I'm not going to change my style of play that I enjoy to suit some basement dweller getting his nerd rage on over vent because I dont have x amount of points in a certain tree spec.

 

If people like wow so much let them stay there.

[Guurzak]

All games are designed to reward some playstyles more than others. If your level 1 Bounty Hunter is a pacifist and refuses to kill anything, instead preferring to traipse around Ord Mantell enjoying the scenery and smelling the flowers, that's fine but you'll never make it to 50. If you want to be successful in the game by any measure other than personal idiosyncratic satisfaction, you are forced, to some extent, to play the game the way the developers expect you to play it.

 

Optimal playstyle means playing in a way which will overcome the challenges the designers have chosen to set in front of you. If you do not play in a way that successfully overcomes those challenges, you are not playing optimally. There is no requirement that you play optimally but the consequence of choosing to play suboptimally is that you suck and you don't get to experience all the content.

 

To argue that a knowingly suboptimal playstyle should be equally successful as a carefully optimized playstyle is to take the stance that a pacifist bounty hunter has a place in a raid. The simple truth is that he does not: either you play to defeat the content, or you will fail to defeat the content.

[Raggok]

A Vanguard not using Stockstrike on Cooldown will ruin his damage output by A LOT.

 

First of all, there is a big difference between PvP and PvE. Some people are talking PvE in this thread while others are talking PvP.

 

As for the above quote, it's a PvE quote. Often times it's not safe to close on a person to Stockstrike them in a zerg situation. Dying reduces your damage output by A LOT.

 

The good thing about a Vanguard who has put some points into assault is that you have options.

[Alpoc]

Just a reminder, the OP was asking a simple question, is the Vanguard a ranged class. The answer to that, if you want to play it effectively and optimally, is "no".

 

He was not asking about the alternative lifestyle choices of a Vanguard.

[Raggok]

Just a reminder, the OP was asking a simple question, is the Vanguard a ranged class. The answer to that, if you want to play it effectively and optimally, is "no".

 

He was not asking about the alternative lifestyle choices of a Vanguard.

 

In PvP, to play it "effectively" and "optimally" you range melee and you melee ranged.

[Krabcakes]

Im not doing it wrong because im not playing it like a stat obsessed geek.

 

 

You're a baddy. Got it. At least you can admit it.

 

 

 

First of all, there is a big difference between PvP and PvE. Some people are talking PvE in this thread while others are talking PvP.

 

As for the above quote, it's a PvE quote. Often times it's not safe to close on a person to Stockstrike them in a zerg situation. Dying reduces your damage output by A LOT.

 

The good thing about a Vanguard who has put some points into assault is that you have options.

 

None of this makes Vanguard a ranged class though. Just because it might somehow be advantageous for a Gunslinger/Sniper to close in and use a melee attack does not make them a melee class.

[KLGChaos]

All games are designed to reward some playstyles more than others. If your level 1 Bounty Hunter is a pacifist and refuses to kill anything, instead preferring to traipse around Ord Mantell enjoying the scenery and smelling the flowers, that's fine but you'll never make it to 50. If you want to be successful in the game by any measure other than personal idiosyncratic satisfaction, you are forced, to some extent, to play the game the way the developers expect you to play it.

 

Optimal playstyle means playing in a way which will overcome the challenges the designers have chosen to set in front of you. If you do not play in a way that successfully overcomes those challenges, you are not playing optimally. There is no requirement that you play optimally but the consequence of choosing to play suboptimally is that you suck and you don't get to experience all the content.

 

To argue that a knowingly suboptimal playstyle should be equally successful as a carefully optimized playstyle is to take the stance that a pacifist bounty hunter has a place in a raid. The simple truth is that he does not: either you play to defeat the content, or you will fail to defeat the content.

 

Except the big difference is that the Bounty Hunter in question is doing NOTHING to help the raid. Even someone with a sub-optimal spec can get through content. It's the elitest attitude that pretty much ruined WoW's endgame for an extremely long time and is what lead to the classes becoming homogenized messes (along with the focus on PvP balance).

 

It's a game. We pay money to enjoy it. People shouldn't be forced to play a certain way just to have fun. You might as well start paying us then and call it a part time job. On that note, I do research my class and find ways to make it better. I keep up on my gear and learn my role in the group. But if some guy wants to comes in and wants to start blasting away with his rifle from afar and keeping his melee attacks out of it, that's fine by me, as long as he's doing enough DPS to get us through.

 

I don't want to see this game turn into another WoW where all people are forced into one certain role, where bosses can one shot tanks unless the healers are doing nothing but spamming heals from the back and where hybrids are useless. Been there, done that. Want to have fun instead of constant arguing over who borked the raid because they weren't doing they're "job".

Edited January 3, 2012 by KLGChaos

[va_wanderer]

At which point i'll move on to another game. I'm not going to change my style of play that I enjoy to suit some basement dweller getting his nerd rage on over vent because I dont have x amount of points in a certain tree spec.

 

If people like wow so much let them stay there.

 

It's not just WoW. It was EQ, FFXI, and a host of other games before it and after it. The only thing between you and said nerd rager is if the devs fail to pander to said "hardcore" players, whereupon they'll call the game "easy mode" and still sit atop a throne of ego, only look dumber doing it and the rest of us can play happily in the sandbox with the l33tfilters in place.

[Krabcakes]

 

People shouldn't be forced to play a certain way just to have fun.

 

No one forces you to do anything. If you want to beat challenging content then don't suck

[BronzeD]

The simplest breakdown:

 

A. vanguard crucial abilities are tailored for 10m range to point blank.

B. they CAN do some damage at 30m max range but the dps is pitiful.

 

Vanguard needs to be at 10m range at least or closer in order for most of their ammo generation mechanism or their strongest dps ability rotation to work.

 

You are free to play vanguard as a ranged character firing from 30m just like scoundrel can keep shooting from 30m with their blaster pistol if they desire till their target is dead.

 

however do so with full expectation that your dps is incredibly poor because that is not the range in which vanguard is built for, nothing stops u from playing it that way... but do not be surprised if you cannot function properly or if your peers seems to completely outmatch you by playing at the correct range and style.

 

if ur a tank, expect to lose aggro and constantly taunting to force them back, if ur in PvP expect to lose against any ranged based advanced class in a shootout.

 

If you played vanguard because you liked blaster rifles (and hate assault cannon) and the trooper's overall armor style like me that's fine, that doesn't change the fact though that the class is NOT built around ranged engagement. You have tools to do some damage at range, but you are NOT designed to function at range properly.

Edited January 4, 2012 by BronzeD

[Inzil]

Thankfully this isnt wow and I dont want people like yourself turning into a gear score fest and telling people they cant play the game the way they want to because you dont think they are good enough.

 

Whats the point of playing with other people if you are just going to demand they all be exactly the same?

 

You can play the game anyway you want, just don't expect to be carried while in groups. That's all.

[KLGChaos]

No one forces you to do anything. If you want to beat challenging content then don't suck

 

A person can easily not have optimal spec and still not suck. While I agree that if they want to play a ranged rifle user, they'd probably be better off taking Commando, but if they're able to do enough DPS to get the instance done, then I'm happy. Personally, I'd love to see a ranged tank in the game, but it could probably cause some balance issues.

 

And frankly, I can't put much faith into answers that state "don't suck" or "don't be a baddie". All it shows is arrogance and adds nothing to the discussion. As for challenging content, I'd rather not see this turn into WoW where the small hardcore percentage determines the way people should play. Again, it just leads to every class becoming the same or being pigeon-holed into certain specs and roles. I play to have fun, like many others do, not listen to people complain about me not doing enough DPS when content is getting cleared just fine. And if the game ever turns into one of those games where the bosses are so hard that you're forced into certain set specs, it will be the day the game starts to die as the few things that make it better than WoW will have disappeared.

Edited January 4, 2012 by KLGChaos

[Lemmy_DB]

Interesting thread.

 

And I totally agree that the differing viewpoints here are pvp vs pve views. Just rolled a Trooper, after playing the BH(Merc - ie commando mirror) up to the late 20s.

 

The reason I re-rolled? Sick of hutball so the change in faction, and wanting a mobile rdps class for pvp. My BH was specced in the dot line (which is almost exactly the same as the Assault line) - because the gunnery line was simply too static. It was all cast-times or channels - so hopeless for kiting. Also, without speccing high in the heal tree, all the heals had cast times too - again, bad for kiting. So it only left me with the one line - the one that's shared with the powertech(vanguard mirror).

 

Played a lot of warfronts with this, playing at 30m range - and finished top dmg in 90% of them. As mentioned earlier, death reduces your DPS by a lot. For PVP, trooper can be one of the best rdps classes when not supported by a premade. And looking at all the trees/abilities etc. Vanguard seems to have a lot more useful stuff in its other trees to support the assault line - making it probably one of the best classes to allow you to keep dealing damage at all times (whether moving or standing) - and you get to add some burst by moving in close (or pulling a weakened enemy in close)

 

That being said, to dps in pve group/raid situations, you need to maximise dps and let your tank worry about survivability) - so for that, you either go commando for static ranged, or as a vanguard, you need to get in close.

 

So all parties are correct - in their own environments

[BronzeD]

u'll have to be careful though when considering the viability of vanguard in ranged department for PvP.

 

in warzones where pressumably u'd be among the group this works fine where u can lob ur mortar, sticky, and generally dispense some munitions into the fray and duck out if necessary while waiting for cooldown. If they focus on you, then it's not a bad trade since you are fairly robust and the rest of the team should pull their weight meanwhile.

 

if you are engaged directly however in smaller scale or worse one vs one by any ranged classes, attempting to fight them at range as vanguard is effectively suicide unless you have a usable location advantage (showing only for throwing munitions out then ducking back to obstacle to break LOS for instance).

 

do NOT expect to be able to fight against equivalent player with similar or equivalent level class of ranged spec beyond 10m range and to be able to win reliably because you will not.

[Lemmy_DB]

That depends. If they rely on standing still to cast, it's an easy win dropping an insta dot, moving out of range (forcing them to abandon their cast), nip back in range, insta, move etc. And if this suckers them to follow you out of cover, harpoon and use your melee stuff.

 

Not the best strategy to have a stand-and-shoot fight if you're built as a kiting class

 

You can't always win vs everyone, but I found the kiting setup gives the best chance vs most. Most of my deaths seem to come from CC (sorcs mainly) with others doing the dmg while I can't move. But most classes/builds would probably drop from that too (without support).

[Krabcakes]

And frankly, I can't put much faith into answers that state "don't suck" or "don't be a baddie". All it shows is arrogance and adds nothing to the discussion. As for challenging content, I'd rather not see this turn into WoW where the small hardcore percentage determines the way people should play. Again, it just leads to every class becoming the same or being pigeon-holed into certain specs and roles. I play to have fun, like many others do, not listen to people complain about me not doing enough DPS when content is getting cleared just fine. And if the game ever turns into one of those games where the bosses are so hard that you're forced into certain set specs, it will be the day the game starts to die as the few things that make it better than WoW will have disappeared.

 

 

First. I have had the casual vs hardcore argument plenty of times. In my experience when a game swings too far in either direction it starts to lose appeal. I happen to believe there is room for both. Games can be negatively impacted just as much by becoming too easy. No one wants to play tic-tac-toe for 4 hours straight. Going for as many subscription numbers does not mean a game is good. McDonalds sells a lot of burgers. Are you going to tell me they have the best food?

 

Second. Anytime someone says a game will die because of "X" It immediately signals that they have a very weak argument.

 

Third. I really don't care if you play with people that don't mind carrying you. I don't care if you want easy content. Not everyone does. Others have every right to exclude you for not pulling your weight. Plenty of people enjoy challenging content. There are a lot of people who fall in the middle ground of following the hardcore theory-crafters to know which way to spec and how to beat difficult content. Most people prefer to feel as if they earned their rewards.

 

Fourth. I don't understand how you can complain about classes becoming homogenized and then desire to not have any particular spec be needed for a role in pve. It makes zero sense. So it's not fair that you should have to spec like a tank to be able to fill that role, and yet you don't want classes to be the same? Please explain how content is supposed to be design around such a system? Zerg it down?

 

Finally. Don't ever talk about fun in such a manner. Fun is subjective. People find all kinds of different things fun. This is another hallmark of a terrible argument. I'm not all that hardcore but I do enjoy some level of challenge. I accept that there are people that are better than me at this game. I also accept that there are people who just want to play a few hours a week and not be challenged in any way. Neither one is right or wrong.

 

If you are a casual player then just accept that you do not deserve the same rewards as people that put in more effort. Enjoy your game. And stop being jealous.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Krabcakes

[Krijgsheer]

Vanguard is officially described as 'mid-range' if I'm not mistaken. Primary skills are within 10meters, some melee, few afar.

 

I don't feel like a melee class though, i usually find myself a few meters away from my target, except when using stockstrike once in a while for the talented debuff.

[Raggok]

Yes.

 

Your opponent and the enviroment dictates whether you are melee, mid-range, or ranged. Trying to pigeonhole the playstyle for PvP will lead to you not getting the most out of the class.

 

As far as PvE, well of course you should be up on your target as much as possible since ranged attacks can be used from point blank range anyway. Just don't stand in the fire, amirite?

Edited January 4, 2012 by Raggok

[LaManoNera]

But you won't do any damage at long range.

 

Basic Attack, Full Auto, Sticky Grenade (or Aussault Plastique) and High Impact Bolt are all your ranged abilities.

What do the later 3 have in Common? A 15 sec cooldown. So you'll basically be spmming your standard for the most time if you fight at range.

 

 

The hardest hitting Vanguard Ability is Stockstrike, followed by High Impact Bolt (ignoring Assault Plastique).

 

Both Tactics and Aussault Spec have more than 1 talent improving or proccing from Stockstrike (again, your highest hitting ability), and which improve your 2nd highest hitting ability.

 

A Vanguard not using Stockstrike on Cooldown will ruin his damage output by A LOT.

 

I was talking about fighting opponents who can think and actually fight back (PvP). The Vanguard's strongest advantage is versatility. And the most effective way to use a Vangaurd in PvP is to kite, protect, and distract. Which can be done at any range.

[KLGChaos]

First. I have had the casual vs hardcore argument plenty of times. In my experience when a game swings too far in either direction it starts to lose appeal. I happen to believe there is room for both. Games can be negatively impacted just as much by becoming too easy. No one wants to play tic-tac-toe for 4 hours straight. Going for as many subscription numbers does not mean a game is good. McDonalds sells a lot of burgers. Are you going to tell me they have the best food?

 

Second. Anytime someone says a game will die because of "X" It immediately signals that they have a very weak argument.

 

Third. I really don't care if you play with people that don't mind carrying you. I don't care if you want easy content. Not everyone does. Others have every right to exclude you for not pulling your weight. Plenty of people enjoy challenging content. There are a lot of people who fall in the middle ground of following the hardcore theory-crafters to know which way to spec and how to beat difficult content. Most people prefer to feel as if they earned their rewards.

 

Fourth. I don't understand how you can complain about classes becoming homogenized and then desire to not have any particular spec be needed for a role in pve. It makes zero sense. So it's not fair that you should have to spec like a tank to be able to fill that role, and yet you don't want classes to be the same? Please explain how content is supposed to be design around such a system? Zerg it down?

 

Finally. Don't ever talk about fun in such a manner. Fun is subjective. People find all kinds of different things fun. This is another hallmark of a terrible argument. I'm not all that hardcore but I do enjoy some level of challenge. I accept that there are people that are better than me at this game. I also accept that there are people who just want to play a few hours a week and not be challenged in any way. Neither one is right or wrong.

 

If you are a casual player then just accept that you do not deserve the same rewards as people that put in more effort. Enjoy your game. And stop being jealous.

 

I'm not jealous at all, actually. I could honestly care less if some dude wants to sit in front of his computer all day long and do nothing but play a video game for virtual gear. I was quite happy with raiding Heroic Dungeons and normal Raids in WoW, until I grew bored with the same old grind every expansion. I'm actually one of those people who studies his class, tries to find the best spec I can and learns the encounters, who falls in the "middle ground" that you spoke of. I'm not saying people should be able to run around willy-nilly and do whatever they want, tanking in dps gear with a dps spec and dancing the raid boss to death. I'm saying they shouldn't be forced into one spec for one role. There should be options, among the tanking tree. Otherwise, everyone ends up exactly the same. I want the tank classes to be unique, each bringing something to the table that's different, but equally effective, unlike the way the classes have become in WoW.

 

I also want to see Hybrids have a place. There's something wrong when Paladins, wearing shields and full plate armor, are sitting in the back with the cloth wearers spamming similar healing spells with just a couple unique abilities to separate the two. They should be in the front, beating things up, possibly taking a little damage, and doing some healing. Shamans should be casting damaging spells to power up their heals. Unfortunately, WoW's design sort of killed that possibility. It's why I like the smaller groups in TOR. Hybrids can have a bigger role. For example, was doing an Flashpoint the other day with a Commando healer. It was nice seeing him doing more than standing in the back and just doing nothing by spamming heals on me. He got to do at least some dps to the mobs as well, which in my mind really fits the whole "Combat Medic" feel.

 

I don't really fall on either line of the hardcore or casual debate. I'm just against the hardcore players who say that any person who doesn't play the game the way they believe it should be played is bad, because someone sat around crunching numbers and determined that spec X does 1% more damage than spec Y. They sit around acting like they can dictate how the game should be designed and played, and that they're the only ones who matter, despite the fact that everyone pays the same subscription fee. I personally find most casual vs. hardcore debates idiotic myself. I don't believe casuals should be handed free loot like many want, but I also don't think the game should be made so difficult that most people won't even get to see the endgame (like WoW used to be before it started down the road to Pandacraft).

 

People should be able to have choices, within reason, that don't severely punish them for experimenting a little bit. As much as I've gotten away from WoW, I feel their decision to get rid of most of the talents is a good thing. It allows players more freedom of choice. And if I have to carry someone a little bit, I have no problems with it, as long as what they're doing isn't constantly causing wipes. I carried quite a few people in WoW and sometimes people carried me. It happens.

 

As for the fun argument, you're right, it's subjective, and it wasn't really part of my argument, but more of a statement. I don't see where the problem is in stating that I play the game to have fun and not have to worry about someone going off on me because I'm putting out a little less dps than him, as long as the content is getting done. Yeah, if I was causing constant wipes because I wasn't even trying, that's fine, but if I'm in there doing my best and still able to do enough DPS to get us through, then I see no reason why people should get all up in arms like they do because you're not doing exactly what they think you should be.

 

And please don't say anything about a flawed argument when a response you gave basically told someone "not to suck". That doesn't even attempt to contribute anything constructive to the debate and only serves to ridicule people. If someone is having difficulty, I'd much rather give them advice and help them learn than be derisive.

Edited January 5, 2012 by KLGChaos