Shhh... don't ruin their delusions. They actually didn't work hard at all *snicker*. Half of them exploited, and the other half benefited from their loose change.

You know... before we Scrappers/Concealers got nerfed... this whole "Healing is OP" business was never an issue. Can ya guess why? You don't have to say it... You're welcome. Now, if they would just put us back to where we were, and then Buff the Heavies a little bit (or even better, teach them how to gear themselves properly for Absorption and Shield Rating) like I said to do in the first place - all of this would fix itself. But noOOOOoo... everyone had to get us nerfed. Everyone wants to NERF! Don't try buffing stuff... NERF IT! Transfer of hate... it went from Scrappers/Concealment... and not a week later - right on to Healers. Good job community! Way to think things through.

Those guys estimated about 5,500 damage per kill. That's not that much, dude. If you have a healer on you, any class could do the same thing. The problem is, Healers don't waste the heals on Classes like... Scoundrels.... or... well... Scoundrels. But if they did - whoa man!

To be honest with you - if they were just going to make this gear so easy to get (which... isn't THAT much easier) then they should just take it out of the game to begin with. Why? Let's look at why they're making it easier. HAVING IT GIVES YOU A 100% CHANCE AT WINNING.... AT EVERYTHING. There. That about sums it up. Removing this garbage from the game will do a lot of things. 1. Classes won't have to be nerfed.... ever. 2. Classes won't be OP... ever. 3. Classes won't be UP... ever. 4. PvP can be about having fun... not grinding. For those of you who don't get it... Expertise is essentially, a soft Gear-Score rating. Remember that? Remember all the crap it caused? Someone of you hardcore folk love it... but it's pointless. It does nothing for anyone. Tell me if you've heard this one in SWTOR... "You really need to get Gear if you expect to roll with us in the REAL WZ competitions/Ops/Flashpoints." Sound familiar? It should. Because that's exactly what it is...

Congratulations on having Expertise Gear! What does that have to do with Scoundrel being OP? Don't answer - I'll tell you. It has everything to do with it. Next?

We weren't OP. The other classes (which were the ones claiming we were OP in the first place) were UNDER-powered in some respects. How do we know this? Because they got buffed. Problem solved. Next?

Look - I don't dislike the class. I love it. I love playing it. But that doesn't mean I don't see the holes in its design, and it doesn't mean I can't talk about them. I also love red-meat. I love to eat Rib-Eye steak. But that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge the health risks involved with eating too much of it. What I don't like is the behavior toward the class, and I don't like how it has been mistreated and mishandled. And I don't like the passive emasculated behavior of defending such treatment. Rolling something else is not the answer. Debunking the myth that it is "fine" and QQing like everyone did to get it nerfed in the first place - is. At least for me. Will it resolve anything? Probably not... but at some point in time, they're going to have to buff it in some manner or another. They'll have to. And when that comes - at least I'll be able to say "I told you so." So no... I won't reroll, and I won't shut-up. Thanks attempting to imply that my point of view doesn't matter. Since we are both equally valid - I presume you acknowledge that yours doesn't either. Or maybe you don't... which technically means you're an elitist... which means you don't matter in a rational sense, anyway.

I see... So... we are one trick ponies? Great! At least you admit it. Our one trick was working too well? Fine. But now our one trick is equalized to everyone else's. Cool - I'm fine with that. The difference is... they have three or four tricks - all of them eqaully normalized - all of them, we have no way to counter. Our one trick worked well to make up for the fact that we had nothing to fall back on. Our problem isn't that our trick was nerfed. Our problem is it's the only thing we had/have. We were so powerful because that's all we had. It wasn't hard to exploit it even then. The holes we have now in our offense, were present even then. The difference is, we could produce results then, whereas now... we can finish a fight that's already won? People used to fear us because they knew we could devastate them if they weren't careful. They were careful - BECAUSE of us. They had a right to fear us - because they were also afraid of the other classes just the same. Now... they just laugh at us. They do. They laugh, because our rotation strategy is easily broken (just as easy as it has always been), and once it is broken, they know we don't have a leg to stand on. All they have to do is lean. Now - I admit... you have lots of options if you do a hybrid build... but that sort of undermines the reason to even bother investing into a whole tree... don't you think? Of course, this doesn't even get into the differential that Gear provides. This exacerbates things to a phenomenal degree. I don't know about you, but I don't enjoy the fact that I play a class that my team could do without. I don't enjoy the fact that my team would rather have any other class than mine, simply because it can do anything I can do, better, and then some. I don't understand why anyone would think this is "cool" and "fun" and "balanced". It doesn't make sense. Don't mistake what I am saying... I love the class. I love the mechanics of it. But I don't love the fact that BW gutted my one trick, and then expected me to "deal with it." It's like they want the other classes to get revenge or something. Like we had anything to do with how well their sloppy design was "working better than intended." We played the class they gave us. Then they suddenly change it after months and months of Beta Testing? No. We are not and never were a "fight finisher." We were a Rogue... in the sense that we did things that changed the tide of the battle. We did the one thing that no one else could do - which is why that was ALL we could do. Now, because that function is gone, WZ's and Ilum boil down to "who has the most heals." This is the very fact of how a Trinity works. A trinity works because it supposes that all classes can die - even if they are tanks. You win, because they can die, dictated by the fact that there must be a victory achievement. And to kill the class, you need to apply a certain amount of DPS. However, in defense of that, you have Heals. We counter-balanced that. Suddenly, that is gone - and now you have an over-abundance of heals. We don't matter now, because our function has "changed" to be something that already exists and is performed better by everyone else. We achieved similar results compared to every other class before the nerf. As a group we achieved similar results to any other group. We were nerfed because people who were new to the game, didn't have the know-how and the experience to deal with it. The nerf happened in 5 weeks of research which stated the complete opposite of years of testing. Our class passed through years of design, years of alpha testing, months/years of beta testing... and suddenly, when there is a surge of over-whelming numbers of a particular class that is our design's primary target... we're broken? Please. Stop defending this bogus crap that we're supposed to be "fight finishers." If we were supposed to do that - we would have been that from the word go. We were designed to be "game changers" which facilitates and defines the word "Rogue." We did things that helped the team win in ways contrary to any other class. We were the Queens on a chess board designed to kill everything else if used correctly, so that the Knights, Rooks, Pawns, and Bishopss, could take out the King. But we could be defeated very easily if we weren't careful. We were important because of our power. Now we are unimportant, because of our lack thereof.

Ummm..... no... Moving on... These changes sound awesome. It will never happen. I would love it if they did... but they simply won't. And, as far as Flechette Round being passive... ehhh... for the class' sake I would agree... but ONLY if the Flechette Round Animation got moved over to something else. I mean come on - it's the most bad@ss animation in the game. Can't get rid of it. I'd almost pass on the Passive idea for that reason alone. Seriously - keep everything you just said... but make it not work on GCD. I love that shotgun flip too much In all honesty... it's the only reason why I still have FR still in my build.

Funny... I said the same thing when Sorcs rage-quit and demanded a nerf on me (Scrapper.) I even wrote a thread about how this whole "Hate Machine" will eventually turn around and be placed on another class. Just my luck... Sorcs were the first ones on that $hit list. Of course, I agree with the other guy - they'll never be touched. If BW had the mindset to buff Sorcs with 1.1.2... they clearly have no idea what is in the best interest of game balance. Sorcs/Sages didn't need a buff to begin with. The only class that could make them settle down was Scrapper... and they got hit hard in 1.1.1. Because... "Sorcs came to the forums and cried for a class nerf." I tried to be reasonable before the nerfs even started going around. But... guys like you weren't interested in listening to reason. I have no sympathy for you. And... of course you don't care - because you're winning. I think it's great that the only reason you could beat us was because we got nerfed. That lightning button works really well now, doesn't it? I don't blame BW for this game falling apart. Well.. I do... but I blame Sorcs/Sages too.

I play a Scrapper. I came to check these boards to see what the Ops were saying on the nerf. This guy right here pretty much nails it. It was a nerf that had zero thought put into the notion of larger consequences. They "fixed" our "faster than intended kills" issue... but they ignored the probability of creating 2 more issues "Scrapper/Concealer dies faster than intended" and "Scrapper/Concealment kills slower than intended." The fact that Sage/Sorc got buffed right after this sealed the deal. My question is - if these were the classes that complained the most... why not just buff them and leave us alone? They were going to do it anyway.... Since we're on the subject, we can't kill "faster than intended" without the buffs and the gear in the first place. Why wouldn't they just fix THAT crap? You other guys can argue all day long about "but if you do this... or if you have that..." But those are conditional arguments that exist inside of a vacuum. They aren't pointing out the bigger picture. This whole thing has become a huge mess....

There is a lot of omission and misinformation flying around in this thread. I don't care to get into it, really... but anyone who says there is nothing wrong with Scrapper is not being honest about something. You might be able to fool someone else, but you don't fool me. Since the nerf, I noticed I was not working exactly like I should be. Maybe we were too strong... I don't know - I honestly don't think so. Either way, we got nerfed, and so I had to adapt. I went into a build that seemed to help make up the difference - at least one non-heavy armor classes. I had to do a little more complicated playing than I am conditioned to, but on the whole - I was doing about how I expected considering the changes I figured I would have to make according to the nerf. Overall... I came to grips that I was just going to have to bite my lip about tackling Heavy Armors... but there were other targets I could go after. Now, 1.1.2... this has really made a huge difference in things. I've found myself in a situation where I really can't do anything effectively against anyone. I honestly don't know what I am supposed to do. I've tried several builds already, but I can't figure how I'm not supposed to just abandon Scrapper altogether. It's not because I don't understand tactics. It's not that I don't understand how to interrupt and stun. Simply put... I can't do enough damage to kill anyone, and I can't stay alive long enough to do it anyway. Once my burst is over... whatever their health was at... is about as low as it will go. It pretty much boils down to whenever they are about to die... a few things might happen depending on what I am fighting. 1. They Force Run away, which means I don't kill them. 2. They stealth and run away. Since I really can't "detect" stealth with a trap or something, and it seems to me that DoT's don't break stealth... they're just gone. 3. They push me back, snare me, heal (which I would love to interrupt, but I can't because I used that on their stupid Tracer Missile/Sniper crap that two shots me) and... well I'm just dead. My play experience has felt a lot like trying my hardest to do everything right... for nothing, because I'm going to lose anyway. Meanwhile... I sit and watch other classes 2-3 shot me... while my Dodge/Shield both are up. Even if they weren't up - how does that make sense? Weren't WE just nerfed for doing the very same thing to them? Why is it "balanced" for them to do it, and not for us? I know people like to speak in absolutes on these forums. They like to make it sound like killing people with a Scrapper build is just routine for them, and they never have any problems, and anyone who can't do it - sucks. But... I'm a good player. I know how to play this game. I'm observant. I'm really good at using LoS and all that stuff. But the fact of the matter is, Scrapper has some seriously bad gaping holes in it that are easily exploitable by every class. And once they get their teeth into those holes... there's really nothing we can do to get away from it. And really... just going into the battle - it's not hard for them to turn the tables around. All it takes is ONE heal.... it could come from ANYWHERE. All it takes is ONE Knockback. All it takes is ONE stun. And suddenly... we're already losing. To me... being forced to play a "Hybrid" or another tree entirely, is not a very good solution. And that's what it appears to me is the only way to be an effective Scoundrel anymore. It's not a PvP-only issue either. Scrapper is WAY underperforming in PvE as well - it did even before the nerf. I'm just not sure what BW expects us to do, exactly. And I'm not sure why people on these boards are trying to make others feel like they "suck" or they are "stupid" if they can't figure it out. Shouldn't you be trying to help? As far as I can see... you're just exacerbating the problem. I'm glad you rock. I'm happy for you. But I am also not dumb enough to believe that there isn't something you aren't explaining.

This thread is rich... Look - we got boned because Sorcs/Sages were complaining - and they got what they wanted because for ever Scrapper/Concealer out there, there are at least 10 Sorcs/Sages... probably more. We weren't OP - we never were. In the 1-49 range, we topped the charts if we played well... EVERY class does that on a regular basis. In the 50 bracket, if we had gear, we could own people who didn't. If we didn't have gear - we got owned, just like everyone else. The nerf was totally uncalled for. Why would we need to be nerfed, if these classes were going to be buffed anyway? I realize people like to come onto these boards and pretend like nothing is wrong, and pretend like they're just the best Players of any particular class ever, and anyone who has problems doesn't know how to play - but that just isn't the case. The fact of the matter is - we were nerfed because we were killing an obviously "underpowered" class ,which got a buff not one week later, too quickly. They should have just buffed those classes, and left the nerfs alone.

Dude - get off this BS. Everyone knows the Sage is a better healer. We don't need metrics and video proof of evidence. You don't hear people asking for Sawbones in the Ops and Flashpoints. You don't see Sawbones NOT dying in PvP.

I dunno... I find that people have their CC-Breaker a lot more often than we give them credit. Either that or they're doing something I don't know about. I was after this one Sorc - I swear he was breaking every CC I threw on him. It's like he had 3 escapes or something. I was very irritated.

Except I also spoke about that very thing. I go into great detail about how Resolve works and how it works both before and after 1.1.1. Tendon Blast is irrelevant - it would have worked either way. You can't say that "It's okay, since we have Tendon Blast." We already had Tendon Blast. It already worked. It's not making up for anything because it already did what it was supposed to do. The point is, no one is going to use an Escape on a 1.5s Knockdown. I go into great detail about this. When factoring in reaction time and the fact that 1.5s is a standard GCD... they'll never even know it happened. Throw on top of that ANY of our other Stuns, and they suddenly have an Escape afforded to them, which would have worked the same even before the nerf. My point is this, KO now provides you enough time to use Back Blast immediately after Shoot First, where it used to provide you with enough time to get through half of your Burst Rotation - which included Back Blast. Currently, without KO, you still have the ability to use Back Blast - which effectively renders it equal to speccing into KO. I've tested this - I never miss the Back Blast. The target simply does not react in time. If nothing else, I use Tendon Blast, which does a decent amount of damage, it lasts longer than KO, doesn't fill up their Resolve at all, and gives me enough time to get behind them to hit them with Back Blast. I'm spending an extra GCD to do this, sure, but I'm also applying more damage than I would if I used KO, and I'm achieving a longer Stun. Speccing KO is an option. Unfortunately, it's an option that costs more than it is worth. Thus... it is worthless. Look - don't get mad at me. I didn't design this to behave this way. I'm just providing you with the facts, and telling you how I chose to deal with it. Losing KO in your build is not going to "break" you. You'll actually be more effective.

Well... you could always completely avoid the objective and then go around killing everyone like we Scraps/Concealers did. How do you think people got so mad at us all the time? Because while they were busy playing catch, we were blowing them up. However... personally, I wouldn't even bother with that. Sorcs and Sages will just complain and you'll end up being NUBAR'd.

A 1.5s Stun is worthless. I don't have time to educate you in the logistics of this, but it's as useful as not even speccing it - which is "not at all." If you understood how Resolve worked (which I'm sure you don't) then you would understand why a 1.5s Knockdown is by and large as useful as nothing at all, and is in fact, worse. As you can see, I didn't spec it, and I find that I am performing roughly the same as speccing it - except my 2 SP are somewhere else now that helps me with solid results. 2 Skill Points for a 1.5s Stun that creates more than half of the Resolve Bar is worthless. Feel free to waste these Talents if you want... but don't say I didn't try to warn you. Here, read this. I dare you: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=227273

This was my spec before the nerf: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#701McbZGIMRdkMbfzZh.1 It was pretty decent. You might hear some people nit-pick it for one reason or another, but it worked very well. Now, since the nerf... I realized I had to make some changes. Not want to... have to. This is what I have come up with: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#7010cZGhuRdkMfczZhr.1 Give this a go. I just specced to it earlier tonight, and I've run quite a few WZ's with it with some relatively great success. You're going to immediately notice one thing: Shoot First is not knocking people down. It will be alarming at first. Don't worry. Pick your targets, and you'll get Back Blast off all the same. Once you get used to it, you'll never miss KO. Well... you will.... but you sure as h3ll won't miss a worthless 1.5s KO... You'll also notice that Tendon Blast is your friend. Learn to love it. It hardly does anything to their Resolve, and it's practically spammable (not quite, but it's nice.) The reduced timer on Dirty Kick is also a breath of fresh air. I know a lot of people swear by Round Two... I honestly just don't see a need for it. Yes, I know getting UH back is useful... but it's not going to win the fight by itself. Doing anything solo with this build isn't going to be easy. Despite popular believe by other classes it wasn't easy in the first place. Now... you're just going to have to come to terms - there are some classes you have no chance at defeating 1v1. Everything else will be tough. I found that this build allowed me to keep the flow of Scrapper in tact, while still being viable to some degree. Whatever you do - DO NOT waste points on KO. I might even say avoid Flechette Round altogether but... even though it isn't really going to give you the edge we actually NEED as a Scrapper.... investing so much into the Tree and not getting it is just dumb. It's a shame, too. It was the one skill that made the whole Tree work.

I made two threads, personally, and both threads got over 20 pages worth of response. One of the threads (the whole thing was about Scrapper 1.1.1) which I created in the Public Test Server Forums BEFORE it went live, was REMOVED and placed inside the Suggestion Box Forums (again, a week before it went live.) That alone showed me that they had absolutely zero interest in our feedback on this issue. The original post I made has turned out to be 100% correct in everything that it stated. They totally screwed this class up completely, and the fact that they are buffing Sorcs/Sages next patch on TOP of this nerf, shows me that they have absolutely no intention on dealing with the real problems. I honestly don't know what to think about all of this. I really don't. I really like this game, but I've been down this road before. If they keep doing this, they'll end up with the biggest flop of a game since WAR and AoC before it. The fact that I can respec to something else and be viable is completely beside the point. There was a working class with three totally working trees. One was working very well in PvP. Was it working too well? I honestly don't know. I never encountered a situation where I was face-rolling people in a few GCD's, but evidently, this sort of thing DID happen, and it happened way too often. Personally... I just don't buy it - but whatever. They had plenty of other options to nerf Scrap/Conceal in better ways... and they did the absolute worst thing they could do. They FORCED a respec into completely different trees. Not to "make up for the damage done" but simply "to do ANYTHING."

At the very least, they need to have increased CD's on these abilities. They are completely ridiculous to say the least. I remember Smugglers had ONE stealth ability that could help with Objectives - Smuggle. You could hide your teammate for 15 sec while they got the cap. Guess what? They nerfed the $hit out of that on day 1! "It's not fair! We can't even see them! Wah!" Jeez... those guys should see the crap every other class pulls from MY perspective. It would blow your mind.

I just don't understand why these classes get to Force Jump, Force Run, Harpoon, and all kinds of crap with the Huttball, bypassing traps altogether, not to mention insane AOE Knockbacks.... yet my class's "nifty ability" equivilant as stealth... isn't allowed? This game is borked.

The reason I am slowly but surely not liking this game is the fact that Bioware keeps messing everything up. They had a really, really, really great game at launch. It was so good... it was probably the best MMO I had played in years. Then they started nerfing stuff.... They have done nothing but nerf after nerf after nerf. If the game was so borked - these sorts of nerfs would have been caught in Beta. They're messing with stuff without really looking into better solutions to whatever problems arise. And what will come out of this - is a completely different game. There was a difference between the Design Team and the Live Team. They aren't the same guys. So far, the Live Team has done a pretty great job of breaking EVERYTHING. They're doing stuff that doesn't need to be done, and completely avoiding things that do. This is SWG all over again. This is why I am starting to hate this game. It's even worse, now, because it was not less than a month ago that I saw how great this game was. And it's not that it has gotten to the point that it is completely different (yet). It's that this game-plan of "fixes" is going to produce that sort of result - probably before Summer.

Wrong. I tested this: I took an Armor Mod out of my Medium Armor Chest Piece and put it into a Social Armor Chest Piece - it resulted as less Armor because the Social Armor Piece was Light Armor. The Armor Mod does not change an Armor Piece from Light/Medium/Heavy. The Armor Piece dictates how effective the Armor Mod is. A level 40 Armor Mod does not yield the same Armor Value when placed inside a Light/Medium/Heavy Armor Piece - it yields different results. The point of this is not that we can't use the Social Armors. The point is that the only ones who don't suffer for using them are Consulars/Inquisitors.

I actually think what they are doing is the smartest thing. 1. Reducing the costs to make Blues is going to significantly reduce the cost on the GTN. It may not immediately, but people will come around. 2. Making the Reusable adrenals tradeable and not require Biochem is the worst solution possible. This has to exist. The advantage of the Rakata Stims is that for your own use as the crafter - you don't have to waste money. This is why they reduced their effectiveness down to be equal to the rest of the stims - it's a great advantage. It's a crafting profession - which means that for personal use, the cost should be minimal, and the items sold should bring you profits. 3. If you wanted this to be fair for the other classes, then the solution would be (for example) to make it so that at 400 Armormech (and other such Professions) - the crafter no longer has to pay repair costs on the armor that THEY made. As soon as the Battlemaster and such mods can be removed and place onto Orange crafted gear... this sort of advantage will be INCREDIBLY desireable. But that is only half the solution. 4. Now, for WZ's, this isn't a big problem. But everywhere else - especially in the later levels, repairs can be quite costly. And really... I should say that if you lose the WZ, your team should have all armor durability reduced by 45%, just to ensure the viability of this sort of change. People whose gameplay consists of nothing but WZ's have pretty much been afforded a free-ride in this game. This needs to stop. 5. Assuming all of this comes into play as it should - this might mean that there could be a major cash-flow problem for people who only want WZ's and not contribute to the bigger game. This is why Slicing did not need to be nerfed.