So... okay... if you want to talk about animation bugs and stuff like that - I have a whole list of reasons why the entire Empire Class Line-Up needs to be nerfed yesterday. Animation bugs are not the problem. Should your Escape make you immediately jump to your feet? Absolutely! Should Bioware try fixing that before they try nerfing the class? ABSOLUTELY! But guess what? The nerf to my class is happening anyway. And what I am offering is a lot less, "Screw you! You are now broken beyond repair!" than what is currently on the real table. Unfortunately, you aren't dying because of an animation bug. You're dying because I can produce insane amounts of damage in very little time. The stun has nothing to do with it. I really wish it were that simple, friend. I really, really do. Thanks for your comment!

Thanks for taking the time to copy my post and then inserting it into a word counter. I appreciate that you appreciate that I took the time to write out something in great detail that I care about. I appreciate that you think I am maybe a "little crazy" because I care that I express my thoughts very clearly so that when you offer me your rebuttle and you have clearly misunderstood everything I had written - it was not because I failed to write them, but because you failed to read or you simply have no idea what you are talking about. I'm also glad that you care about this issue, too. Did you happen to read any of those words by chance? Would you care to explain how Bioware's solution is better, or did you just want to ignore your responsibility as a contributor to this thread completely? Either way, thank you for your comment!

Here's the thing, though man. If they do this nerf - no one is going to use KO or Flechette Round - which are the abilities this thread is all about. We're already talking about strategies to make up for the loss. The best we have is to make a hybrid with Sawbones/Medicine. It's not right for any class to HAVE to make a hybrid in order to function. I'm not saying that for just Smuggler/Op - I'm saying that for the sake of all Classes. Since we won't be using Flechette Round - we aren't getting the Armor Penetration we need... which basically means we won't be doing damage anyway. The KO is what allows us to get through our Burst Rotation. Without it - we won't be doing damage anyway. Sentinels obliterate us anyway lol. The ONLY thing we have going is the fact that we kill you before we give you the chance. And... that's just simply not right. By nerfing our Critical Damage, at best, we will put a ding in you, and it'll be one epic fight to see who gets the killing blow. It might actually make us clinch our sphincter in fear for a change! Wouldn't THAT be fun? I think the entire class needs an overhaul, honestly. But, in all truth of the matter - this thread would be talking about an entirely different "problem" if I thought it would matter. The "really real" problem has nothing to do with anything I've written here. But what "really really" needs to happen... isn't going to. This is the best I can do. Thanks for your comments! I'm glad there are people who can listen to reason and see that we Smugglers/Ops aren't all laughing at your corpses. We see the issue. We don't like it either. We know how important the bigger picture is. I just don't want to see my class nerfed to the point that it is no longer fun to play. These were the concessions I was personally willing to make, and I think they are reasonable. Once people realize that with these changes, we aren't hitting them 4-5 times in a row with 6k Critical Damage each in 3-7s... they will see the light I think.

Reducing the base damage will in effect reduce the Critical Damage, but later on, base damage is somewhat irrelevant. You are owning face because no one has the Health to withstand your attacks anyway. On top of that, the stuff you are doing in 10-49 WZs is actually on par with what everyone else is doing. I know this because I've played them too. I am never ALWAYS the top player. Other classes outperform me in Kills and Damage all the time. Am I ever on top? Sure. But so are they. At 50 when people have gear... this is a completely different ordeal.

It was hardly half, but either way, it was all Critical Damage. Reducing the Critical Damage from Underdog would have made this irrelevant. Thank you for your comments!

How do I do that? I don't know where those are.

It hurts you, because the class you chose to play is going to be the next victim. Nerfs run on flames man... FOTM is born from it. You are looking at your own bias when you say these things. Thanks for your comment.

So you're saying that my 4-5k Critical Hit will equate to the Assassin 700-800 Critical Hit if you remove the Knockdown? Look - if you want to balance that out: REDUCE THE CRITICAL DAMAGE We do not have a single ability that does over 1.8k Damage in a single shot - considering we have to be in Stealth, behind the Target to use it.... I think that's a good number. It's the Critical Damage applied to it that makes it 4-6k. The Knock Down has nothing to do with it.

The KO duration is only 3s. This is a fairly short Stun duration considering what else is out there. It seems like it's too much, because we do so much damage to you in those 3s. Reduce our Critical Damage (which is what makes us so powerful) and this 3s duration will be a cakewalk for you. You guys have to start seeing this: 3s Stun is standard - every class can do this (probably longer.) The Critical Damage is not standard - no other class can do the Crit Damage we do in such a short amount of time to one target. The current play state of Scrapper/Concealment vaires. Our rotation is relatively easy. What isn't easy is when we aren't doing the rotation. This DOES happen, you know? When we aren't in Rotation - it's pretty difficult. We are doing a lot. I'm trying to show that when you reduce our Critical Damage - our Rotation will not devastate you, and we will be forced into a situation where it is much more difficult for us. You have to look at the big picture here. You ARE correct about Resolve, however. It is totally FUBARed.

Acid Blade does internal Damage because it is a Bleed that does comparable damage to the other Bleed we have - Vital Shot/Corrosive Dart. The Armor Penetration was there so we could apply damage to Heavier Armor with our other attacks. Whether we were meant to be able to fight them well or not is irrelevent. The point is we have to be able to do something - AP provides us with that ability. Was 50% too much? With the current Critical Damage we do - yes. Nerf the Critical Damage? No. None of our Damaging Abilities are Spammable, and all of them require some sort of circumstance - Behind Target/Stealth/Bleeding/etc. You are either lying, or you simply do not know. They are Instant Casts - but they do have CD's. The only "spammable" attacks we have do damage below 500. These are not the attacks that kill you. Our base Damage is non-existent. If it were so great, we wouldn't need Critical Hits and our Sustained Damage would be.... present. All of our Damage is based on Critical Hits. Because our our Critical Damage is so low, all of our big attacks require circumstances - Behind Target/Stealth/Bleeding/etc. The problem is NOT that we can knock you down. The problem is that we can do so much Critical Damage before you get back up - I clearly said that in my post... which you did not read. If our Knockdown were such a big deal - don't you think they would have taken all of our stuns away? Think. If they take that away, we'd just do the same thing with another Stun, and you'd have the same problem you have now - except it would be worse, because we could stun you a second time as soon as that first one wore off. The reason the KO fills up your Resolve is precisely so we cannot stun you again. I am over the fact that I got a nerf. I made that perfectly clear in my post. I was never arguing that we shouldn't be nerfed. You should really read things before you respond. Thank you for your comment.

You die before you can react because of the Critical Damage we are able to apply before the Stun wears off. If it's not that stun, then we would just use a different stun. We won't be able to take 40% of your life if they take away the Critical Damage. You have to look at this in GCD's. We use 3-4 Attacks to do this. That's roughly 6-7.5s - we cannot attack faster than the GCD's will let us. These 6-7s deaths occur because of the Critical Damage we apply. I understand what you WANT to happen. But you aren't looking at this from a "betterment of the game" standpoint. You're taking it personally, and you're allowing your bias to compromise your Reason. I totally understand how you feel. I went through the same ordeal for the past 2 days when I saw the Patch Notes, and I wasn't looking at that correctly, either. Regardless, our biased opinions aren't doing anything but clouding our judgement. I am trying to meet you in the middle. You don't want me to kill you so easily? Okay. I am happy to oblige. I offered something that will drastically effect my ability to do that. But breaking the class is not the answer. Thanks for your comments!

That would be great to see those numbers! Thank you. I thought the "displacement" from KO was a glitch? Reducing Underdog is essentially what I was saying would make the most out of the nerf. I disagree with the Armor Penetration being touched at all, but it might not be too bad at 20%. We'll just have to wait and see. Thanks for the feedback!

You didn't even read a word of what I wrote - did you? It's okay. I'm not mad at you. Thank you for your comments.

If you play Scrapper/Concealment and you haven't read this, then you haven't done your part to support your Class. Read this and inform yourself before you do any more complaining. TL;DR Version: By popular demand Solve this problem by addressing the problem: If Scrapper/Concealment is "killing faster than intended" because of the 6k Critical Damage, then reduce the Critical Damage of Underdog/Meticulous Blades which gives us a +30% Buff to our Primary Burst Rotation abilities (the ones that kill you.) It will be better for everyone because you aren't dying in 3s, and wouldn't compromise Scrapper/Concealment to the point that we would have to abandon the top tier Skills in these trees altogether - which is fair and balanced design. If you want to understand how this works - read on. Personally, I would be a lot happier with this. Why? Because you aren't being killed in 3s, and my class isn't broken. It's a win/win. The Post Proper: I created this thread, here, in the PvP forums, and then I remade it in the Public Test Sever Forums. The Public Test Server Forums thread has been moved to the Suggestion Box Forums. I have gotten substantial attention from both. I think this is a very important issue, and I would like to be addressed here, as well. I'll provide the link to the Suggestion Box thread if anyone is interested in giving it a read-through, however, it says the same thing here. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=227273 EDIT:: I have revised this to be an easier read, while also making a few minor corrections in grammar and flow. Preface: Skip down to "The better solution:" if you want the gist of this. This is a long read. There is some good stuff in here if you bother - please do. I sincerely would like some feedback on this. However, before I get into this, I just want to say that (as a Scrapper) I acknowledge that we're getting nerfed. We can argue all day long about whether it's the right thing to do or not - but that's not what this thread is about. The fact of the matter is, one way or another, Scrapper/Concealment is getting nerfed - period. Let's look at this issue differently, shall we? Please, no name calling or ridiculous remarks about which Class can do more than your Class's momma. I'm trying to make a legitimate thread here, where we can all meet in the middle and find a compromise that will actually work. Leave Biochem, Gear, Relics, and whatever else out of this, since those arguments aren't going to stop these classes from being nerfed. The argument: So, I've been thinking about this nerf quite a bit. And I know it isn't written in stone, but for the moment it is all we have to go on for what's coming up. I have some simple questions that I sincerely just need some more clarity on, and I would like to know what you guys think. If the big deal about Scrapper is the Critical Hit Damage that we're doing (6k and all that jazz) - why would we need to nerf 2 abilities that have nothing to do with the actual Critical Damage? Flechette Round: If they mess with the Armor Penetration on Flechette Round, then we have basically been cut off to attacking people in Heavy Armor. I mean - these guys can be tough anyway. I realize someone is going to say, "Awe... u mad u can't kill me in one shot?" But that is really not what I am saying, and that is not an intelligent conversation point. So let's move forward. Ideally speaking, all classes should conceiveably be able to kill every other class. However it is done - it should be possible. Locking Scrapper/Concealment out of a Class that wears Heavy Armor (that is hard for us to kill anyway) is not a solution - which is exactly what will happen when our Armor Penetration is reduced. The Armor Penetration is there specifically to allow our Base Damage to bypass armor to a certain degree. This is important for us - we HAVE to be able to penetrate the armor. Otherwise, there is no way we can do any amount of damage - because of how Shield Rating and Absorption works (which all Tanks have.) I don't care how mad you are at this class... you have to listen to reason on that. You have to. You cannot say the solution to the problem is to castrate us from doing the Burst Critical Damage the Tree was designed to do. If you design a class to perform a function, and do not also design the circumstance to be built into the class to create the condition for it to perform it's function - then you do not have a functional class. This applies to any class. ADDITION:: More on this later. K.O.: By reducing the Stun to 1.5s on KO, you have effectively provided any class it is used on, a free Escape. Let's look at this logistically while considering the nerf to KO's 3s Stun: The standard GCD is 1.5s, if you have 0 Alacrity. By applying Alacrity you can reduce your GCD, however the lowest you will ever get is 1.3s. This, by all intents and purposes, is a relatively, non-existent difference. Now, if a player has not used their Escape when they are hit with KO, then they can immediately use it. How long is the standard Player Reaction time to this circumstance? .3/.7s - more - less? Looking at this situation in this way, it's not too much unlike a situation that occurs now. We hit them with KO, they use Escape, and the battle wages on. This outcome would be the same whether the Knockdown was 1.5s, 3s, 10s, whatever. Using Escape would break the Stun immediately. Regardless of popular Myth - I am here to confirm for you that we cannot use a second Stun on you. If we can - then it IS a glitch, and shouldn't be considered when looking at class balance. Regardless, I promise you - we cannot do this legitimately, just like no other Class can do this legitimately. Other classes CAN do this - but these circumstances are well known Gltiches. Now, Suppose that in the heat of battle, the target of the Scoundrel has just used an attack at the exact moment we hit them with Shoot First, thereby - Proc KO - they are Knocked Down for 1.5s. That might be a rare coincidence to happen... but realistically... it's not that hard to imagine considering everything that is going on in PvP. In this situation, the player would have to wait an entire GCD (1.5s) to use their Escape, because they JUST activated an ability. That means that they cannot use their Escape until 1.5s after they were Knocked Down, by which time, the Knock Down would be completed, anyway. So they wouldn't HAVE to use the Escape in the first place. Now, suppose their Escape isn't on a 1.5s GCD. Suppose the above scenario were the same - they used an ability right before the Knock Down. Now, they can immediately use Escape if they want to, because it does not respect GCD. The standard reaction time is .3/.7s. That means they only have to wait roughly, 1s (or less) longer, before the Stun will lapse anyway. No one is going to waste an Escape on a 1.5s stun, especially since it fills up their Resolve, and the Scrapper/Concealer cannot apply another stun. You cannot balance a class based on the probability of someone doing something completely stupid. Let me rephrase that - the only way this nerf will work, is if someone does something stupid. This is broken design. Suppose they are hit with a KO and they are knocked down for 1.5s. Suppose they reduce the Resolve that KO produces so that it no longer fills up their meter. I've already shown how they won't bother with the escape, since they have to wait a minimal amount of time. It's not worth it. Suppose we use Dirty Kick on them (a 4s Stun.) Upon hitting them with our second stun, and since they did not use Escape the first time around - they use Escape on the second stun. Now they are running free - they have a full Resolve; we have used 2 Stuns on them to generate a possible 5.5s Stun (2 Stuns to generate the average Stun time available to all other Classes in 1 Stun that does NOT fill Resolve) - that did absolutely nothing for us. This is BROKEN. What this nerf will do to KO, is effectively allow the Scrapper/Concealer to spend 2 Skill Points on a Skill that gives their Target a free Mechanical Passive Escape, and a full Resolve - locking us out of using another Stun. If they Reduce the Resolve, it's even worse for us, since they will have an available, unused Escape for our second stun, and we are locked out of a third stun. Re-read this: 2 Stuns, 5.5s worth of Stun, produces a full Resolve - and there is nothing we can do about it - neither of these Stuns will work - which renders yet another Skill of ours useless. I don't care how mad you are about the Scapper/Concealer... you cannot agree that this is functional class balance. ADDITION:: More on this later. 1.1.1 sucks for everyone: This nerf does more harm than you think it does. Yes - it will drastically reduce the Scrapper/Concealer's ability to "win". But in all the wrong ways. Do we need a nerf? I personally say "no", but I won't be going into "why". Regardless, the fact is, I'm getting a nerf anyway. I can live with that. But let's be smart and fair about this. If you shut an "op" Class down, the only thing it will do is move the hate from one Class to another. You know it. And I know it. We've seen this happen too many times on too many games to think otherwise. Today, Scappers and Concealers are the root of everyone's rage. After this patch, that rage will then be transferred onto another Class, and we as a community are down an entire Tree in a class we may one day want to play. This is not functional. The better solution: Now, I hope (I really do) that given this examination, we can all see that this nerf is not doing anything productive for the purposes of Class Balance - which is what we all really want, right? I want you to really try to not focus on the rage of your past experiences, and look at this reasonably and without bias. If I have to live with a nerf - you can look at this with a clear head on your shoulders. I ask that we find better solutions that will not break the Scrapper/Concealment trees. And rest assured, this nerf will break them. It won't balance anything. It will break them. You have to see that. Fortunately, I have a better solution, and I encourage you to examine this, tell me what you think, and give feedback. I don't know that this will work, but I do know it will be a LOT better than what 1.11 currently provides. Addressing the problem: What is the real problem? It doesn't matter what the real problem is. We all know what the real problem is, but Bioware seems to think Scrapper/Concealment is the real problem and is nerfing it instead of what we all know is the real problem. So let's move on to the problem with Scrapper/Concealment. Critical Damage. We do too much of it in too short of a time. If you have read this far, you will see that you cannot nerf the time in which it takes us to produce our Critical Damage, because it will destroy the functionality of the Tree. What's left? Addressing the Critical Damage.[/size] Nerf Underdog/Meticulous Blades instead: Here is what Underdog/Meticulous Blades does: +1.5 Energy for each tick of Pugnacity/Stim Boost. +30% Critical Damage to: Back Blast/Back Stab Flechette Round/Acid Blade Shoot First/Hidden Strike Tendon Blast/Sever Tendon The way I understand this: we get a +30% to Critical Damage whether Pugnacity is running or not. Now, here's the deal: 3 of the 4 abilities listed are basically what make up the bulk of our Critical Damage in our Burst. They are the most important abilities to our Burst Rotation, specifically because of what this Skill does to them. Nerf it. Nerf it all day long. Nerf it until you're giddy in the face! Underdog/Meticulous Blades has a lot of functionality for 1 Skill/3 Skill Points - even I would admit that. It is, by and large, ridiculous. Why are we doing so much Critical Damage? Because of Underdog/Meticulous Blades. This is why you die so fast: 1. It's not the 3s Knockdown - 3s Stuns (and longer) happen all day long from other classes and people aren't dying. 2. It's not the Armor Penetration - there are attacks in other classes that bypass Armor completely - no one is dying to that. 3. It's not the applied DoT - don't even get me started. 4. It's the amount of Critical Damage we can apply to you in very little time. The fact that all of our Burst attacks are Instant Casts is proof of how fast we can do this. But like I said, you cannot nerf the time it takes us to do it - you can only nerf the output: the amount of Critical Damage. 5. It's not the base damage that is the problem - the base damage is nothing. 6. It's not one attack that kills you. It's 3-5 attacks, that all crit for roughly 4-6k - that's 14-30k (give or take) damage in a matter of seconds, people. Even if you could respond to the 3s stun, or it didn't exist - we would hurt you, and likely kill you. Even if the AP were reduced - we would hurt you (unless you're wearing Heavy Armor.) Even without the DoT - you would still be hit for 12-18k. 7. It's the Critical Damage that kills you! Reduce our Critical Damage and the most you would ever get out of us, the very most - if the stars and planets aligned perfectly, and someone sacrificed a virgin to Khali, and you were afk, and we Crit EVERY SINGLE TIME - the most you would ever get from us is 17.5k - that's a lot less than 30k. 8. Put into perspective... we would average around 10-12k, and you could stop it all by simply using your Escape, that we cannot counter because your Resolve is filled up. This is the reality of Scrapper/Concealment if all that was done was a reduction in Critical Damage - plain and simple. It's the Critical Damage. We do more of it than everyone else - because we are designed to do just that. What's the problem? It's too much Critical Damage being applied at once. We don't need this much Critical Damage happening, because we already do more than everyone else. Solve this problem by addressing the problem: If Scrapper/Concealment is "killing faster than intended" because of Critical Damage, then reduce the Critical Damage of Underdog/Meticulous Blades. It will be better for everyone, and wouldn't compromise Scrapper/Concealment to the point that we would have to abandon the top tier Skills in these trees altogether. Personally, I would be a lot happier with this. Why? Because you aren't being killed in 3s, and my class isn't broken. It's a win/win. [/size] Discussing The Better Solution:: Kyrandis brought up a good point in the other thread: Paraphrased "If you reduce the Critical Damage, then the class would never be able to make up for it after the Stun, because you don't have enough damage outside of the Burst Rotation." This is somewhat true, I think, which is why we always tell you how terrible we are outside of the Burst. We weren't kidding. But, I think that our ability to just flat out kill you is... it's just wrong. I think, really, since Underdog is only applied to 3 specific attacks, and we reduce that Critical Damage Output.... it'll work itself out. However, like I said - this might not be the best solution. But it's a lot better than what we've been given. In the event our out of Burst Damage is indeed too low to make up the difference, I have an alternative: Kyrandis's suggestion in response to this would be to make Underdog give a base 5/10/15% bonus to Critical Damage that applies to everything, instead of a 10/20/30% bonus to our 3 biggest attacks. I support this. I think it would work better than what we currently have in Live, at any rate. Just remember - the only thing that really matters is the amount of Critical Damage we can do in the 3-5 second window of our Burst Rotation. The Stun, the AP, the Bleed... none of that is the actual problem. FACTS:: Since the forums have been offline, I've been doing some research and some math. I'm going to skip around a little here, so bear with me. I'm honestly tired of holding your hands through this, so I'm going to take it easy on myself, since I know 90% of you aren't going to read this far anyway... KO: My friend Kyrandis (who helped me make some sense of things in the other thread) was kind enough to link us to some facts and figures about Resolve, Stuns, Mezes, and Knock Backs (which is what KO does.) I'll let you skim over that and study it while I show you the math of what is happening with KO as it is now, compared to the Nerf in 1.11. I won't explain this - it's pretty simple if you're not dumb. Go to the link Kyrandis provided below; read it; and then figure it out for yourself. I'm not holding your hand on this one. http://taugrim.com/2012/01/04/understanding-swtors-resolve-mechanic/ 1200 - 3s KB +50% = 2000 18s Stun Immunity 600 = 1.5s KB 800 = 4s Stun (Applied Dirty kick) +50% =1800 18s Stun Immunity What? What's that you say? "You mean to tell me after all of that, the 3s Stun is actually DOING THE SAME THING?" Yes.... that's exactly what I am saying.... except that I have to do it in 2 Abilities instead of one - and neither of them will work. So essentially, when they nerf KO, you will still keep your 18s of Stun Immunity from EVERYONE. My 3s Stun gives YOU a buff to your Resolve. By the way - you're welcome. You may think that's not a big deal though since you will be able to survive my Burst Rotation now that my stun has been reduced by 1.5s. Okay... let's continue... EDIT:: This section has been corrected for typos. Flechette Round: Armor 75% (Maximum possible Armor Rating Percentage possible in game. Look it up if you don't believe me.) 50% AP = 37.5% 30% AP = 52.5% (Nerf 1.11) Shoot First Stock 2043-2230 (Shoot First Damage Range) = 2137 (Average) 2137 + 641 (30% Crit Damage) = 2778 - 37.5% AP = 1737 Nerf 1.11 1635-1784 (Shoot First Damage Range -20% Damage) = 1710 (Average -20% Damage) 1710 + 513 (30% Crit Damage) = 2223 - 52.5% AP = 1056 Proposed Fix (Reduced Crit Percentage) 2043-2230 (Shoot First Damage Range) = 2137 (Average) 2137 + 320 (15% Crit Damage) = 2457 - 37.5% AP = 1536 You may notice that Nerf 1.11 significantly reduces the damage output of Shoot First. Well, the AP reduction and the Damage Reduction do a lot.... on this one attack. Remember - we don't kill you with 1 attack; we kill you with 5. You'll survive this - you won't survive the others (unless you wear Heavy Armor, which means we will never be able to kill you, which is a design flaw by the way), because they do not incur the 20% Reduced Damage. Moving on... Back Blast Stock 1067-1083 (Back Blast Damage Range) = 1075 (Average) 1075 + 322.5 (30% Crit Damage) = 1397.5 - 37.5% AP = 873.5 Nerf 1.11 (Remember, this doesn't receive a -20% Damage Reduction - the Range and Average stays the same.) 1075 + 322 (30% Crit) = 1397 - 52.5% AP = 664 Proposed Fix 1075 + 161 (15% Crit) = 1236 - 37.5% AP = 772 Now you may be thinking a few things. 1. I seem to be pulling numbers out of thin air. I am not. Look them up. Do the math yourself. Fortunately for you, I spent the past 3 hours doing it so you wouldn't have to. But don't take my word for it. 2. My proposed fix actually produces more damage than the nerf. You know what? You're right. But we can always nerf the Crit Damage more. It's a lot easier than nerfing 2 of our most important abilities. I never said my solution was perfect - I said it was better. We can nerf it to 10%. I'll let you do the math on that to your hearts' desire. But... I'll give you this one anyway since.... 3. The results from Back Blast don't seem to show as much of a difference as Shoot First. How astute of you to notice! The differences are minimal. What does this mean? You're going to die anyway! YAY FOR ME! Why? Because Shoot First is not what kills you. It's a series of attacks. Right now, it takes 2 GCD's for us to use Shoot First and Back Blast. That's 3s. That's equal to the stun KO applies. Which means you aren't dying in 3s, because we have 2-3 more attacks in our Burst Rotation before we are finished - and by extention... before you die. I don't even have to get into the math in those, because the results would reflect the same as the Back Blast Results since the -20% Damage Reduction doesn't apply to them either. So the overall damage we will be doing to you... for all intents and purposes... is going to be roughly the same. A little less... but a little less than a max of 30k in this respect is approximately 22k.... which means you're going to die anyway. The 1.5s Stun is not going to save you. 4. You might also notice that none of these figures are representative of the actual damage we do to you - 600-800 is NOT 5-6k. Keep in mind... I'm just using stock values with what the Abilities do and how they react to these few Skills. So you might want to ask me: "But Raice - my brotha! Where is all the extra damage coming from?" Which leads me to my final point: THE GEAR THE RELICS BIOCHEM THE BUFFS FROM DAY 1 WE'VE TOLD YOU THE SAME THING - IT'S NOT THE CLASS[/size] But since THOSE aren't what are being nerfed - and Smuggler/Op is.... I am giving you my better solution. NOT because I think Smuggler/Op needs to be nerfed... but because I am trying to save my class and because I am tired of everyone whining and complaining about the NON-ISSUE - which is why we're being nerfed in the first place; unnecessarily so. If only you guys would listen to us next time! By the way... did you really think that this nerf was going to suddenly force us to play more strategically than we already were? I know my class - and I just defended it against all of your BS. That is the very definition of Tactical. More FACTS:: A lot of people are confused as to what Armor Penetration actually means, and this is because they do not understand how Damage Mitigation actually works. They seem to think it produces MORE damage. This is false. The total amount of damage produced is based on the Base Damage Range, Power, and Surge vs various aspects. Power increases SOME Base Damage. Surge increases the Critical Damage which automatically starts at Base Damage +50%, which is applied on TOP of the Base Damage. If you aren't stacking Surge... your Critical Damage will not be astronomical. Guess which Secondary Stat Scoundrels/Ops are most concerned with? Can you guess why? No - the answer is not because "Everyone says to do it..." Here's why. Armor Penetration vs Defense:: Defense is a value derived from your Level, total Armor Rating, and a few other things. Defense determines whether or not you are hit by more than the Base Attack. Nothing about Defense determines whether or not you are actually hit. You are always hit by Base Damage, regardless (you never see MISS pop up on your screen.) Accuracy is built into your Primary Stat - for Smugglers/IA it's Cunning; Trooper/BH is Aim; so forth and so on. My Accuracy is pitted against your Defense. If I win, I get to have a chance at producing Critical Damage. If I lose, your Defense won, and all that is applied is Base Damage. This is where Armor Value and Armor Penetration come into play. Armor Value reduces the amount of Base Damage applied. If your Armor Value is 50% and my Base Damage is 50, then you receive 25 Points of Base Damage. Armor Penetration reduces your Armor Value. If your Armor Value is 50% and my Armor Penetration is 50%, then you have 25% Armor Value which means my 50 Damage is 37.5 Points of Damage that directly reduces your Hit Points. All of this takes place regardless if I won the Accuracy vs Defense roll or not. Critical Damage: If I won the Acc vs Def roll, then it goes into Phase 2. Critical Chance and Critical Rating mean the same thing. My Critical Rating goes against your Shield Rating. If I win - I bypass your Shield altogether. You receive all of the damage my Critical Hit can produce... on TOP of whatever the result was that your Armor Value vs my Base Damage produced. If your Shield Rating roll beats my Critical Rating roll, then your Absorption Rating kicks in and reduces my Critical Damage, exactly like your Armor Value reduces my Base Damage. Armor Penetration has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with my Critical Hit in any shape, form, or fashion. So, what's the big deal with Armor Penetration and how did 1.11 cut me off from Heavy Armor Classes? Shield Rating and Absorption:: All the Heavy Armor classes can utilize a Shield Generator. A Shield Generator, more or less, gives them an added layer of Defense specifically against Critical Damage. It does absolutely nothing more than that, functionally speaking. That's why they use it. On top of this, this is the very reason WHY they stack Shield Rating and Absorption Rating - so that my Critical Damage is non-existent and I MUST rely on my non-existent Base Damage... and by extension - SUSTAINED DAMAGE. This is the very item that makes them a Tank. Without it, Absorption Rating would not even be a factor, just like Classes without a Shield Generator (like me for instance) don't even utilize Absorption. Any time we are hit with a Critical... we take it all... Like a man, I might add. Shield Rating mitigates Critical Damage - nothing else. This is why "Tanks" have them. Theoretically speaking, if the Absorption Rating were high enough, then my Critical Damage would more or less be reduced by around half, and I would have to rely on my Base Damage to make up for it. Well... it doesn't do that. Why not? Because it's already being mitigated by the Armor Value - which is why I have Armor Penetration - which... by the way... my AP only lasts for 15 seconds and is only triggered by 2 attacks, which both have to be used behind the target, and one of which MUST be used in Stealth.... which is WHY..... they have AoE abilities that specifically draw Stealth dudes from OUT OF STEALTH! Either way - I would still die. This is why I RELY on the element of surprise, and WHY I HAVE to have an opener with a Stun that allows me to perform my Burst Rotation. Without them... I will die. It's an observable fact. You cannot lock me out of killing an entire genre of Class. That's the very reason 1.1.1 is even being proposed in the first place. For Heavy Armor guys.... their Absorption Rating works anyway. Without the momentary pause in in their damage to me... I simply would not kill them - period. Reducing my AP will render my Base Damage even MORE worthless than it already is. And without the Stun... their Base Damage - which is phenomenal by the way, thanks to whatever Power they MIGHT have, which is usually conveniently tagged along with Absorption Rating also, by the way - on top of whatever Critical Damage they do (which I cannot mitigate at ALL) - I would be dead with no way to respond. Wait a minute - THAT sounds familiar! Remember when I said the "hate" would transfer to a new class? Did you think I was kidding? "Tanks":: All you "Tanks" out there complaining about Scrapper/Concealment owning you.... you're probably dying because you are stacking Crit Rating and Surge and NOT the very thing that will protect you from us - OR if you're a BH or a Trooper, you are using a Power Generator and all that it implies (which, again, effects your Base Damage - which, also again, is all you need to kill me since I have no Armor Value to protect me against it in comparison to yours.) You are NOT specced to do what your Class was designed to do (Protection), because you're too worried about Kills and Damage ratios. You are complaining about me doing what MY Class was designed to do, and trying to compete with my designm instead of owning face at what YOU'RE designed to do. Now, why would ANYONE want to do this? Because "Everyone said to do it..." and you do not understand how it works to know otherwise. I'd be willing to bet the guy who started that rumor was a misinformed Scrapper/Op. "Dude, check out my Critical Hits! They're OVER 9,000!" Then again... it might have been a Juggernaught.... Whatever - don't worry. Raice is your friend. He's got your back! I am here to inform you with CORRECT information. This is about the bigger picture, after all. "But Raice! My brotha! I play a Sorc/Sage.... I want you to own me in the face with your knowledge of this game and how it works too!" Don't worry - you're next. Sages and Sorcerers:: Sorc's Sages.... you'll notice that you don't have the ability to protect against my Critical Damage like the Heavy Armor guys. Here's why: I'M BUILT SPECIFICALLY TO DESTROY YOU! Just like, you'll notice, the Heavies are built to destroy me... and each other. Actually... they're built to lay waste to everything that moves - but that's a different discussion. Did you ever wonder why you have so many abilities that have to do with CC and all these neat tricks that let you get away with stuff other people, generally speaking, can't? It's because you don't have Stealth and you don't have Armor. Did you ever wonder why we always pester you? Because you're always on the outskirts of where the action is taking place. Why does your placement on the battle-map matter? Because we hang out on the outskirts too. We usually have a juice bar going - you should come... bring a friend! You think we wanna get in on all that action where all those brutes are beating each other up? HECK NO! WE'LL DIE! And we know it! We're much more sophisticated than that. Nothing's worse than ruining a good shirt, you know? So we hang out in the back, even further out than you, really. We bypass our Sniper and Gunslinger pals completely, because... pff... screw that... plus there's sort of this "Honor Amongst Thieves" thing going. And... I mean I can't even FIND the other Stealth dudes, and even when I do - it's basically a matter of who hit who first... unless there is an obvious difference in gear. So... by order of elimination - all that's left is YOU! See... you're taking this all wrong. You think I hate you... but I actually LOVE you the MOST! And since there are more of you in this game than every other class (probably combined).... it's like Christmas every WZ! Which brings me to a good point: Why are WE being nerfed? Because YOU said so - because you don't understand the game. I know this by virtue of the fact that I literally just explained how everyone is SUPPOSED to happen, and it works perfectly when it is done correctly. And since it ISN'T working, and I know WE are not getting this wrong... someone MUST be playing incorrectly. There are more of you who don't understand the game, than there are of us, by virtue of the fact that there are simply more OF you. To be fair, half of US are misinformed, too... Not anymore. Conlusion:: So the question still remains. Is it really the 3s Stun or the AP that kill you? Maybe.... *sniff* Maybe... Then again, maybe we just do a little too much Critical Damage? Maybe YOU need a buff? Now I KNOW you thought of THAT solution - am I right? At any rate, that's on YOU to figure out. Just make sure it makes sense. If you don't know how to do that - read my thread again. It doesn't just teach you how this nerf is wrong, or how the Scoundrel/Op works, or how Tanks should spec, or how Sorcs should play. It also teaches you how to make sense. And that's a life lesson you can carry with you outside of even the game! Again - you're welcome. I did my part for MY Class. I challenge someone else to figure out what is wrong with their own Class. All I know is - Nerf 1.11 for Scoundrel/Op is pointless, and I've covered it from every single angle that I can think of, which is far more than anyone should ever need to when speaking to grown human beings. I literally spent 3 days writing and adding to this big ooole' thread to explain to anyone who reads it WHY this Nerf is the wrong decision. This IS the better solution. The End

When? What nerf? What game? Sincerely, I would like to know. This is news to me. I have never played a game where they un-nerfed a nerf. At least not while I was playing it.

I hear ya man. That sucks just as bad. What would solve this? Equal gear on both Vendors. Just put the same crap on both. It's not a big deal to do this. The problem had absolutely nothing to do with what kind of gear who got. It was all about access to gear. They really screwed the pooch on this one. They had a perfectly viable solution to the issue, and they overdeveloped it.

The thing about Expertise and stuff is basically this. PvP players don't want to HAVE to grind PvE to be viable in PvP. That's what the whole debate was all about from the beginning. They were tired of being forced to grind PvE to get gear, when all they wanted to do was PvP. I completely understand their woes, and I think concessions should be made to facilitate their as equally important as mine - dollar spent. Personally... I sort of figured the whole Comms Vendors would have solved that problem, alone. It gives them a way to get gear without setting a foot in the PvE environment. The Expertise is just as you say - ridiculous since they're going to be better anyway, by virtue of the fact that they play more. Do you know what it takes to be an Expert at something? 10,000 hours of practice. This is a researchable fact. You can look it up. What makes an Expert better than a Novice? 10,000 hours of practice - not a handicap.

I'm sure you're right - but by then the damage is already done. Empire get's decent Tier 3 Relics sooner, which gives an obvious advantage in WZ's. Which means they get the Comms faster, which means they get the Gear faster, which means they own face on the Republic when they're just starting to get the decent Relic. It goes into the Sith Dogma perfectly, story-wise, even. They take the short route to Power instead of the long road to Wisdom. That right there is the sole reason why I think the obvious favoritism to the Class Balance goes to Empire. I wouldn't put it past them. I'm sure I'm over-simplifying all of that... but there is some truth in there that cannot be denied.

Well... for the most part, they are mirrors. But there seems to be an awful lot of "bugs" that seem to work in the Empire's favor, that everyone knows exists yet pretend they don't matter. Well... they add up. My favorite one is how 1 Sorcerer can stun lock you. Their lightning bypasses the Resolve completely. You can have a full Resolve, it doesn't matter - they can get you. Yeah... it's a "bug". It's well known. You don't see THAT fix in the 1.11 update, though, do you? Nope. Incidentally, guess which Class has the most players throughout all servers? SORCERERS! Followed by SAGE. Guess what though? The "mirrored" Class that Sage is to Sorcerer.... this bug doesn't exist. You'd think it would be a simple copy/paste job. Strange much?

This might be a minor thing, but I think it's worth mentioning: Light Side/Dark Side Points. Dark Side Points are far easier and far more frequent to obtain than LS Points - even for Empire. Why is this a big deal? Relics. The DS ones are better and they are easier to get, sooner. Fits right into the min/max mentality.

Other classes dominate too. I play with my bro a lot who is a Vanguard. I don't know what his spec is, but he usually tops the charts in Kills, Damage, Protection, and Objective. I mean to say, he is usually in 1-3 place overall. He's not even geared, and he's not using Biochem, and we're rolling against Geared 50's who probably use Biochem. Out of 16 players, I'd say that's more than impressive. I'm usually not far behind, but sometimes it's the other way around. I'm topping the charts, and he's not far behind. We get a lot of kills, yes. But don't be fooled into thinking we're the only ones.

The roll of the Scrapper in PvE is to help with the Adds. Boss fights are rarely just 1 dude. They usually have 3-5 cronies running about, and sometimes the Boss summons more periodically throughout the fight. If your guildies/friends don't recognize that your being there makes their life easier to the point that they don't have to worry about grief from the Adds, then they are severely warped in the mind. There is more to FPs and Ops than killing the Boss. If the Boss takes a little longer to kill - so what? He's going down. Why? Because you killed the Adds. Imagine if you weren't there and everyone was specced to do focus fire on the Boss. Now imagine how much of a nuisance it would be if 3 of the cronies ran over to the Healer. Now imagine he isn't healing the Tank because he's dealing with the cronies. Now the Tank is in dire straits. You have a place - let them worry about their job. Don't let them give you $hit for you doing yours.

I have made a couple of threads that explain my thoughts on 1.1.1 in great detail. I will not write it out here, however, as I'd much rather have your thoughts posted in those threads. since they are already so large. I made 1 thread in the PvP forums, and then another in the Public Test Server forums which was then unexplainably and unnecessarily moved to the Suggestion Box forums. I'm looking into why this happened without notification or explanation, since it was not breaking the rules of the forum and was 100% on topic. Both threads have generated roughly 15-18 pages worth of discussion. That's roughly 30-36 pages of feedback where people are either agreeing 100%, or being completely destroyed and shut down by common sense backed up with fact - by either myself or the people who agree with me. More or less, the general feedback has been that anyone who has played the Class agrees 100%, and anyone who is mad they got owned by Scrapper/Concealment, disagrees 100%. However, not a single person has offered a singular sound rebuttle based on facts. They're just mad they got owned, which is, sorry to say, an irrelevant argument. I think it is worth your time to read. I won't kid you - it's long. But 100% worthy of your time. If you enjoy this game, or enjoy game theory at all, or you think 1.1.1 is doing some really ridiculous and unnecessary crap to Scrapper/Concelament... you'll love it! Here are the links: PvP Thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=223056 Suggestion Box Thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=227273 Don't worry about reading them both - they say the same thing. All I ask is you spare 10-15 minutes of your time to ascertain the content. Thank you! ADDITION: Don't forget to respond to the thread you read, and this one. We want them at the top of the page so everyone can read it.

People always blame their shortcomings on other things: 1. My mom/dad abused me. 2. My dog ate my homework. 3. My boss just doesn't understand what I go through. 4. My teacher is being a jerk. 5. I'm sick. 6. I'm tired. 7. I'm sick and tired. 8. My car wouldn't start. 9. My car had a flat tire. 10. My uncle died. 11. I'm having a bad day. 12. It's my time of the month. 13. Everyone else was doing it. 14. Everyone pressured me into it. 15. Everyone made fun of me. 16. Everyone hates me. 17. People are stupid. 18. People are inconsiderate. 19. People are greedy. 20. Society says. All of this in response so they can justify one little sentence: "It's not my fault." I can go on and on and on with this "list of excuses." We all do it - I've used almost every single one of those excuses for some reason or another in my lifetime - just like you - which is why I could think of so many in the first place. Very rarely are these "excuses" actually true. You know it. And I know it. Blaming something else instead of taking responsibility is always the first reaction to any problem. Not that I have anything else to add to the Scoundrel discussion, but I would just like to point out that complaining about it isn't going to solve anything. They will never un-nerf a nerf. It has never happened in any MMO. Just do your best to take responsibility of the situation, and move on. It's amazing how clearly you can think about things once you've gotten past the moment of rant.

While the logistics of what you are saying are accurate - I'm pretty sure this guy wasn't using it to be exploitive. Not everyone who "exploits" knows that what they are doing is an exploit. I don't see this as a complaint really. If Smuggle had some other functionality to it, then that would be one thing. But he was just using it the only way you COULD use it. It literally had no purpose other than that. And now, just like KO will be after this next patch, it's a function in Scoundrel that exists only to benefit the enemy. He has a right to question it by virtue of the fact that we have a skill that does absolutely nothing useful. It might as well be a Social Ability. This was, yet again, an example of Scoundrel getting a nerf without adding any sort of functionality to the contrary. Don't blame him for using a skill that allowed you to do something, and when it was nerfed, had no use. It was a bug. All you had to say was it was a bug. You don't have to crucify him.