Even more of a necroing, but I think it’s more fitting to drop it here than start a new thread https://archiveofourown.org/works/49132651 Ongoing and post-Echoes of Oblivion with present Vaylin/Sith Warrior romance, continuing on from the Syl plot thread. I’m not sure how applicable the word redemption is, I don’t think Vaylin(or Arcann) really deserve a traditional redemption and she wouldn’t be interested in one, but there are certainly themes of healing and becoming a better person.

I mean, yeah, that kind of trauma can't ever be undone completely, I didn't say it was, but it doesn't mean that no healing or change is possible. You're right, that was quite a low blow and wasn't really thought out of me, I apologize. I read significant chunks of both this and that thread and Arcann is regularly discussed there, and Vaylin is discussed here. I am not interrupting any ongoing discussion of this thread and I'm directly responding to a point made/question asked by another person to elaborate on the perspective they mention(as old as the mention).

Well, reading various major forum threads and how they evolved over multiple years in the last few years has certainly been fun, it’s always interesting and enlightening to see other people’s perspective. I’m very far from being a fan of Arcann or Senya so I won’t talk about them in a fan thread but I do like Vaylin and I think @witchglove brought a very interesting point of discussion(quoted above) which I’d love to answer to, as old as it is by this point. She’s still here unlike many other posters so she’ll probably see it. I feel like I’m qualified to talk about that, I’ve been obsessed with Vaylin during KOT expansions and got back into that obsession just a few months ago after a long break, I have a lot of thoughts on it which I’d love to share! Sorry if it’s a bit rambly. I feel like I’m qualified to talk about that, I’ve been obsessed with Vaylin during KOT expansions and got back into that obsession just a few months ago after a long break, I have a lot of thoughts on it which I’d love to share! Sorry if it’s a bit rambly. I think equating “change” with “redeem” and “save” isn’t correct in this case. Like Arcann, she has committed many atrocities, and I think that once she enters a clearer state of mind, she’ll come to realize that they were wrong and even regret them, but she will never follow the same path as Arcann did(using the rest of his life to seek atonement and right her wrongs), she will see it as a waste of time and as another restriction on her freedom, which is a big no in her book, and as you said, changing against her will for the sake of others won’t go work with Vaylin either. However, I also disagree that Vaylin we see in KOTFE and especially KOTET is her authentic self. She is a product of coping mechanisms and conditioning that Valkorion put on her. The sadistic glee, for example, ties back to some of the experiments back on Nathema which were specifically designed to burn out her empathy, “the beasts feared young man apart and Vaylin made no move to help”. The traces of her glee are also shown there when Jarak describes her laughter as the “sound of her spirit breaking”. She was turbulent and had violent tendencies even before Nathema, but they were not nearly as bad or destructive as what Nathema made her. So, I interpret this as a mechanism to hide her pain and submerge herself in this monster persona that was imposed upon her. She doesn’t care about becoming selfless or helping others, and if you asked her if she wants to change, she would say no. But it’s not very different to KOTFE Arcann, he wouldn’t admit to his inner desires either. I think what Vaylin needs most is a human connection and someone she can trust and relate to, and I think there is a lot to suggest in the game that she does want that, the problem is that the three people from the alliance who even make an attempt to reach out are Senya who Vaylin despises for giving her away, redeemed Arcann who she deposes for betraying her and choosing Senya over her, and the outlander who is a vessel for her main abuser(and who follows his intrusions because that stupid KOTET expansion forced your char to use the code phrase). She doesn’t want any help or connection with them, but that does not mean she doesn’t want any at all. I could bring three examples. Thexan: Perhaps the most obvious one, Vaylin cared about Thexan. He visited her on Nathema and they had quite a strong sibling bond. She always speaks of him favorably in KOTFE and in KOTET even a fake image of Thexan is enough for her to show her vulnerable side. I think Vaylin would’ve been much open to reason bad Thexan survived. Arcann: This one is a bit more complicated, she wasn’t as close with him as she was with Thexan and their relationship was tense at once. However, even thought he killed Thexan and didn’t visit her on Nathema, Vaylin remained loyal to him and never once challenged him despite her having superior force powers. When Arcann betrays her in KOTFE, Vaylin is incredibly hurt and this pushes her over the edge. Side point, this is also why I think it’s not fair to say that violence is Vaylin’s authentic self, she amps that up after Arcann’s betrayal, showing that it’s a trauma response and if she receives proper healing and care, she will become less violent naturally without anyone changing her forcefully. A side point about Senya: Another reason why she wasn’t the right person to reach out to Vaylin is shown in the way she talks about her about her “About Vaylin’s death” email and “A Mother’s hope” short story. She emphasizes that she hoped that there was a part of the girl she once knew in the “violent creature” before her and says that she hoped for a miracle and that Vaylin would return to her “as the daughter she once knew”. This is pretty delusional and dismissive on Senya’s part in my opinion, as she doesn’t accept who Vaylin becomes and still separates the woman she’s now and the girl she was. Rather than hoping for a miracle, she should seek to reconcile with whoever Vaylin is now, no matter how dark and violent she is. And finally. Scorpio: This is a bit controversial and I think this relationship was a victim to the way KOTET was trimmed down and ended up rushed, but I believe Vaylin and SCORPIO’s relationship, while subtle, gives a lot of insight into the former. First of all, the ending of KOTFE. Vaylin can easily try and torture SCORPIO into giving her control of the Gemini droids back and then just dispose of her, but that’s not what she does. Instead she decides to work together with her and allows Scorpio to teach her mentors. I don’t think Vaylin does it out of pragmatism at that point since she’s not very pragmatic by nature. She kills her own people on a whim for minuscule reasons and I think from her point of view, killing Scorpio and forcing her to give the control over would be easier, not to mention that she was a,ready in Ana emotional and angry state after Arcann’s betrayal, she wouldn’t play a long game like that. However, she seems intrigued by Scorpio speaking of both of them being repressed by lesser beings and that to be more powerful, the Gemini have to be free. Scorpio manipulates Vaylin for her own gains here as she admits later, but I think Vaylin’s reaction is genuine. She years for a new connection after loss of Arcann. In KOTET they split up almost immediately, but the short time they spend together there is some insight. In chapters one and two, Vaylin bickers with Scorpio and gets annoyed at her but always holds herself back. She could squash Scorpio like a bug at any point but she still never does. She even accepts Scorpio’s advice and admits that she was right on a couple of occasions. Chapter 3 is the most revealing one. Vaylin speaks about Scorpio with respect, “you can fix everything”, “Scorpio said you’d come, I owe her a credit” which shows that she didn’t see her as a mere underling. Moreso, if the player chooses the option that tells Vaylin that Scorpio betrayed her(not the vague ‘she’s manipulating you’ but the one where you straight up say that she gave away Vaylin’s location and wants her dead) her reaction is an outburst where she shouts “Liar!”. It hurts her, not as much as with her brother, but still way more than you would expect from someone you see as a temporary tool. This continues when Vaylin brings this pain out to Scorpio herself, “Is this all I am to you? Another organic being that you can’t wait to get rid of? You betrayed me, like all the rest”. This also gives a small insight into Vaylin’s psyche and that she is crumbling because of the few people she felt a connection to betraying her. Senya, Arcann, and now Scorpio. So, in the short time they spent together, Vaylin shows respect for Scorpio, some degree of emotional connection and genuinely listening and taking her advice. Imagine if Scorpio was genuine on her side too and would slowly build on this connection? I think this could change Vaylin for the better. So, coming back to the question of what kind of ‘redemption’ arc I see for Vaylin, I’d say it all begins with a connection to someone. This person should not be a part of her family or otherwise someone who hurt her in the past like Scorpio or the Outlander. This person should be firm and have a moral compass different from Vaylin’s, unafraid to criticize her actions but also don’t make those demeaning and seem like they are somehow invalidating her, rather than providing a counterpoint. They should tread Vaylin as an equal rather than writing her off as deranged or cower in fear before her. Also, ideally, they should be strong enough to survive if she does end up having an outburst. That’s just a few people in total, but I think if those people could build a surface relationship with Vaylin much like Scorpio did and then build up on it, showing some compassion towards her as well as hatred towards her abusers, they can make Vaylin reach a healthier state of mind. At the very least, she’d regress to her KOTFE state where she wasn’t as psychotic and destructive. From there on, if Vaylin sees the value of giving the other person’s values and lifestyle a try, she can find an alternative to violence, which will be easier with a supportive person at her side. I am currently writing a fanfic about Vaylin(I think our obsession is of quite similar levels lol, just with the opposite siblings), I paired her up with a Sith Warrior who is very pragmatic. He dislikes pointless cruelty but has no qualms with using it when the situation calls for it. He also empathizes with Vaylin deeply and wants to help out of genuine kindness. He doesn’t want her to redeem herself or become worse or enforce any change, all he wants is to provide this connection Vaylin longs for and allow her to figure it out on her own while she is slowly able to heal and grow more rational. He treats her as an equal, which means both appreciating her personality when it’s appropriate and criticizing them when it’s not, as well as providing an outlet for her sense of humor and being able to share a laugh. However, he is also unquestionably sympathetic and won’t hesitate to try(he’s not that good at it, Sith Lord and all) and provide her emotional support whenever she needs it. But that’s all wishful fantasies and Fanfiction. Realistically, Vaylin won’t trust the outlander after the command phrase stunt, so when it comes to in game timeline, they seem to pair her(Syl) up with Satele and this is a very good call imo. Satele is strong, wise, compassionate and moral, but also not self-righteous. I think she can give Vaylin guidance, patience, and acceptance and slowly steer her towards another path. Both of them also have mirroring estranged relationships with their parent/child, would be interesting to see them compare their situation and perhaps learning another perspective from each other. All of this is why I believe Vaylin can and will change naturally if given proper incentive. It’s hard, but not impossible. Perhaps she’ll become an anti hero when she comes back as Syl and I think it’s a very fitting niche for her. P.S: Shout out to @Nefla and @Damask_Rose, shame they aren't on forum anymore. I saw a lot of hateful comments towards Vaylin from them both in this thread and elsewhere, but a lot of it can be disproven by citing in-game sources

I hope he returns to become the next primary antagonist, the guy is a badass.

Thank you, that's exactly the thing I was getting at. A lot of it depends on what you headcanon for your character in that situation, it can range from an LS character who wants to bring Arcann to justice aand is forced to kill Senya by circumstance to a DS character that just wants to kill them both because red triangle, but the fact of the matter is that even the most ruthless dialogue options aren't about killing Senya there. I spared them a couple of times, but most of the time not. The moment Senya gave up on Vaylin in chapter 8 and said "my daughter is broken" killed any sympathy I had for her.

That's the thing though, as I said she has her reasons for attacking the PC, but that's still manslaughter cause there's no intent to kill Senya. Indirect provocation isn't the same as murder. Killing Arcann would be murder in this scenario but Senya wasn't unconscious and attacked first. That's not what happens with her though, she receives a mortal wound while still on her feet and then dies after her last words without any additional actions from the PC.

Still, it is her choice to attack though, intent to kill is what defines murder, her death is manslaughter/self-defence

Sorry if this seems like disrupting an appreciation thread, it's not my intention but I just checked it out and the murder part just doesn't make much sense. Senya attacks your character first, it's self-defense. Murder implies intent to kill and even if you pick the meanest dialogue option in that sequence your character doesn't say that they want to kill Senya at any point. Sure, she has her reasons validity of which can be debated and they are certainly sympathetic but she is still the one who attacks your char with the intent to kill. There's no way to frame it as murder.

Also, this is one hell of an old post of course but sorry, I didn't check the forums back then lmao. There is a 'word of god' on whether Vaylin was evil or not. Vaylin's Conditioning – Codex entries – Jedipedia.net's SWTOR Database This is the latest released codex entry on her and it says pretty explicitly that it was Valkorion who turned her into a monster. It also says that she was mentally unstable and had violent tendencies before conditioning, and that is sometimes used to signal some "demon child" trope in media, but this isn't the case here. Putting those two together seems like she had issues that could be helped with proper care and guidance, which she sadly didn't receive because of Valkorion. This makes her a complex person, not the evil from birth caricature.

Genuine question, why so opposed to people having the option? It's true that the writers more likely set up for Vaylin to be tragic but ultimately someone you can't help while Arcann still has a chance if you let him. But for starters, boxing a character into a single outcome that remains the same no matter what you choose is a design choice that isn't fitting for an RPG, it's much more interesting to write various paths for players to pick and to have choices that matter. And we know people have a lot of issues about how both Vaylin and Arcann were written(not their concepts themselves, but more related to execution). There are many suggestions people were giving in regards to how Vaylin's story could go other than death, you may not think they're realistic, but there are a lot of choices that are readily available in the game where people would say the same. Yes, I think it can make for an interesting and nuanced story. I think the most realistic outcome would be an eventual switch to her being an anti-hero of some sort, someone who's ruthless and cares about herself the most, but is not actively malicious and can at times support noble causes when she feels like it. Maybe she'll play a part in whatever happens to Zakuul? Koth went there to stop Exchange if he's alive and it seems like it really went downhill since Nathema Conspiracy. Hopefully they sent him off to set up a future arc and not just to explain away his absence if he's still in the Alliance but you never know with this game.

There are a lot of obvious hints at her resurrection in echoes of oblivion.

So, now that date nights are upon SWTOR, I've been thinking about how a hypothetical date night with Vaylin would go. Who knows if it will ever happen but it's fun to think about. I think it should definitely take place on Alderaan as she had some pictures of it and this can be an opportunity for her to spend some time there. I could imagine it being different whether she's on the path to redemption or her dark side self. Could be some sight-seeing and practicing force powers in the forest or causing chaos among the people if she's still evil. At any rate, Alderaan would be a nice place for her to heal.

Hm, I can see that. The moment that makes me doubt is that he doesn't say "no" in the light version even though Vaylin's question was whether he knew about it. Surely he'd understand that trying to avoid the answer would only irritate her further? He could've said "I didn't know, but now that I do, I want to help you break free" or something along those lines.

That should definitely be an option, but if they are bringing her back at all, then why deny the fans who wanted to have an option to keep her alive in some way?

Also on this part specifically, I don't think I addressed it in my post. I don't think it was malicious per se, but I think it's implied that he knew about her code phrase, and that's due to the reaction he gives her in chapter 6. She asks him if he knew about the phrase, and if it's dark Arcann, he says "he never shared his secrets". If it's light Arcann, the response is, as you outlined, in your post, is to evade answering altogether. If he didn't know, then why not say so? He does so in the timeline where he dies. The Dark version doesn't have much of a moral code, so he casually lies to her, while the Light version isn't willing to lie but also doesn't have the courage to say it outright(which I think is perfectly understandable at that moment, if he admits it, she'd attack him immediately, but they could've addressed it in chapter 8 where he finally admits and apologizes). It's admittedly speculation on my part, but I can't see any other reasoning as to why they would give those specific reactions to both of his versions. I don't think he kept it away with any malicious intent. On one side, he probably thought that Vaylin knowing the truth would make her feel enraged, inadequate, and maybe push her further towards chaos. On the other side, if one day she decides to challenge him, this can be the trick up his sleeve, and that's the only circumstance he'd use it in.

The problem with chapter 1 line is that it immediately goes to "killing him won't heal your scars", and lecturing her on how she shouldn't want to kill someone who did all those horrible things to her isn't a good way to try and be sympathetic. It should've focused more on the fact that killing the character will not help defeat Valkorion(there is a line like that in chapter 3 and that's a better one). As for Arcann, I wouldn't have a problem with him if he indicated that betraying her in KOTFE wasn't an easy choice(not that he wouldn't have done it, just that it hurt to betray her) and that he regrets keeping details about her conditioning from her. There was a very clear moment of downtime, actually, the one where Vaylin says "Any last words..." before she attacks. This was the perfect opportunity for Senya to say the words that she did in Echoes. She would likely still reject them, but the attempt makes all the difference here. Vaylin showing hesitation should've been enough for Senya to continue trying to reach out. It would be harder than with Arcann and would require more effort, but out of all people in the galaxy, she's the one that's most obliged to try and help her whatever it takes, as she is part of the reason why she was locked away in the first place. Senya hearing Vaylin describing how she'll torture her is nothing compared to Vaylin actually going through such torture for a decade. Senya giving up on her daughter while she's still alive just doesn't sit right with me and honestly makes Senya downright irredeemable as a mother. There are some cut lines from chapter 8 where you can ask Vaylin to surrender and she says that Valkorion won't let her live if she does. There is also an uncut line in chapter 4 where your character says that they're willing to give themselves up if Vaylin spares their friends and her response is "we both know father won't let it happen". She's also far more reasonable with SCORPIO and seems to have forged some kind of friendship with her, she seems to tolerate her despite their disagreements and even admits that she's right on a couple of occasions, and she's far too angry and hurt when SCORPIO betrays her for it just to be an alliance of convenience(that is why I'm interested to see her relationship with Satele, a lot of potential there). She just hates her family and sees the Outlander as nothing more than Valkorion's new body, hence the dismissal of them. If there was a scene where the Outlander visibly resists Valk in front of her, this might cause some doubt in her mind and possibly read to a situation which is like with Arcann in KOTFE on Asylum, where he's willing to negotiate and Valkorion has to intervene personally to mess it up. She and Outlander can have a fresh start now that the Emperor isn't here to intervene, with or without Arcann and Senya alive. That said, I like the anti-hero suggestion as well. There would be people who would complain if they don't make her a comp and romance but I personally wouldn't be one of them. I have fanfic for that :).

The problem with "refuses every offer of mercy" is that the offers themselves are very weak. Arcann refused those too until he was on the brink of death and had his mother pout out her heart before him. There are very few dialogue options that can even count as an attempt, and literally all of them are in chapters 3 and 4 aboard the Gravestone. Even then, you aren't allowed to call out Valkorion on her conditioning in front of her, which is fair, our character was probably in a state of shock and events were going way too quickly to process it immediately. But what about next encounters? In chapter 6 your characters uses conditioning and mocks her in front of the entire galaxy(literally forced by the game). They make no attempt to reason with her before, no option to try and reach out to her and only use the conditioning when necessary. You can offer her to surrender peacefully after that, but no one would accept that offer, evil or not. Then chapter 8, after the player learn all she's been through on Nathema. An option to mention it and sympathize? To acknowledge her as a victim and try to convince her to fight Valkorion with you instead of treating her like a villain who needs redemption(which she is, but that isn't really how you get through to someone like her)? Nah, only lines like "Now I will make you suffer before you die" and "You can't be saved". Senya and Arcann are bad, too, in Chapter 6 it's implied that he knew about her conditioning and kept it from her, but he never has the gall to acknowledge it and either evades the question or lies depending on what Arcann you have there. In the fight in chapter 8 instead of finally admitting to it all he has is a self-righteous "We...Aren't afraid". Same for Senya. "My daughter is broken", "My daughter brought it on herself"? All those lines she says while her daughter is still alive and after she was ready to sacrifice everything for her son. Where is the apology, where is the begging for forgiveness? She does that in Echoes and Vaylin doesn't have a snarky comeback and doesn't talk back. She has a moment close to that on Arcann's flagship and Vaylin hesitates. You can't help someone who doesn't want help, true, but you also can't say you tried when all of your attempts to reach out to a deeply damaged person amounted to "Oh well, if you stop what you're doing rn I won't kill you". I get that they had an intention for the story, but they executed it horribly and this is one of the major reasons I liked that they overturned it and gave Vaylin another chance. I agree with you that her arc should be different from Arcann's, and I think it wouldn't be a straight redemption arc, more like an evolution from a villain to an antihero. Would be a shame if they don't make her romanceable or a permanent comp but as long as she gets a good story, I'm fine with that.

Agreed, I think both Arcann and Vaylin were supposed to be recruitable initially though perhaps they would be mutually exclusive, something like either you help Senya redeem Arcann and are forced to kill Vaylin, or help Vaylin kill both of them. The ending to the Eternal Throne saga was very rushed and while not entirely anticlimactic, it was a massive waste of opportunity. I know people are tired of old characters coming back, but at least it allows some glimpse into what could've been and in Vaylin's case, allow people who wanted her have her(in about 10 irl years I guess...Whenever they bring her into the story). Echoes in general has been an attempt to remake their vision of the finale with Revan, Meetra, Scourge, and all those other characters involved. And it's not like the alternatives are some masterful story either. It's either rando mando gang wars or Malgus, yet another resurrected character.

It was a waste to kill her without an option in the first place, they could do much more with her. Unlikely, considering all the Syl hints.

While we're at it, can we also have a token that allows to replay that chapter without killing Vaylin? I'd pay a lot for that.

I'm really grateful for what the writing team did with Vaylin in Echoes of Oblivion as it adressed a lot of issues around her KOTET writing but they also gave a huge hint about her coming back in the body of Syl, she got a short appearance in a short story for 6.3, but after that, there hasn't been anything. I'd really love to see more of her in the story and I'm sure a sizeable portion of the fanbase feels the same way(otherwise I doubt she'd get brought back in the first place), and if anyone from the writing team is reading the forums, I hope you remember Vaylin and have plans for her. It would be great to see her in 8.0! And as for my general thoughts on Vaylin's future, I think most people can agree that now that they(likely) brought her back, killing her off without giving a choice to spare her and potentially a romance option is stupid, as it was one of the major missed opportunities in KOT expansions. She could be a good dark side companion but given that they paired her up with Satele, it seems they're planning some sort of change arc for her(I don't want to use the term redemtpion since it might imply her becoming 100% good which doesn't suit her). We have hints that Satele knows the truth about Syl's new identity and i think this relationship can make for an interesting narrative. Vaylin and Satele have some thematic parallels with other characters, Satele is a mother who gave away her son, Theron away and therefore strained his relationship with him. On the other hand, Vaylin is a child who was also given away by her mother and now deeply resents her for it. They are on the opposites side of this abandonment dynamic and perhaps them forging a bond can alter their outlook on those relationships? Satele is exactly the kind of person Vaylin needs, strong and empathetic, she can offer Vaylin guidance and handle whatever stunts she decides to pull, there's a lot of potential there. What do people think about their future? How could it change depending on how player dealt with Senya, Arcann, and Theron? One thing I hope they don't do is make Vaylin recruitable only if you spare her family in KOTET, she's more than just an accesory to them and her arc shouldn't revolve around them. Not saying there can't be interactions if they're alive, but it shouldn't be the core of it. And one thing I really hope does happen is that Vaylin gets help and support that she really needs after all the trauma of her life.

It is! She's done a good job with it.

Oh it's not by me haha, It's the artist I linked in that post, I only commissioned it. Drawing isn't my strong side lol.

Some cute art by https://instagram.com/blakex_art A commission of my Sith Warrior(one of them) with Vaylin. An AU where after certain chaotic events, he stepped down as a leader of the Alliance and now lives a remote life with Vaylin on Alderaan, helping her heal.

This is something I haven't though of, but it's a great idea. Perhaps some development for Satele as she has to deal with a conflict of whether to contain her hatred towards the commander or holding it back and staying true to the Jedi code. I wonder how Vaylin would feel about the player character too, she doesn't seem to hate them as much as her family. Also, I hope whatever story they do with her, they don't lock any major choices into KOTET choice with healing Arcann. She should be recruitable and killable in both paths. Some interactions will change, but I hope they don't make her an accessory to her other family members. While they didn't do it out of malice, they still hurt her, and if the devs want to tell a mature and realistic story, it would be nice to show that she's not obligated to make up or forgive them to become better and have a happier ending.