Another indication that competitive PvP will never exist in SWTOR. So much potential wasted by extremely poor leadership and project management decisions. I think about the dozens of competitive PvPers I've played with over the years who would have pumped hundreds of euros into the Cartel Market every month but instead have gone back to playing WoW or DotA because BioWare relied blindly on their metrics instead of actually gathering feedback or thinking through the issues.

We're actually 19-7 against DRAMA since 2.0. We've won at least once on each map; but you guys won the vast majority of Voidstars without much trouble. In fact if I discount all our Voidstar matches against you guys we would be 18-2 or something. It's no surprise to me that you guys did well in arenas since that was always your strength; but irrespective of whether you dislike some of our current members it's quite disappointing that you don't even mention us as being a competitive team. Personally I'm disappointed that Coral members spend their time posting crap on these or other forums; but I don't control them and there's only so much you can expect people to ignore before it becomes difficult to not say something. As for Warmongers it's not very difficult to be a big fish in a pond of small fish; but to me it's quite telling that they left the game as soon as the other fish started getting bigger. They lost several times to Coral in quick succession after we lost probably 20 in a row to them; but we learned and adapted as they stagnated and failed to improve. Pretty much any of the "top" teams from the past year or so would have been beating the old Warmonger team; maybe if they kept playing it would have been a different story but it's hard to predict how they may have evolved... especially considering the egos in there probably couldn't survive without winning every game. Anyway, arenas are a completely different game type. I expect different people to do well there; for example the Cody Two guys who couldn't win a normal warzone to save their lives but are excellent at deathmatching. Some of the "lesser" teams who have a strong 3/4 players but were dragged down in RWZs by 3/4 poor ones. It just depends who keeps playing and who comes back. Some of you guys really need to find better things to do with your time, though. Just saying.

It's essentially a self fulfilling prophecy. They say they'll reinstate 8v8 RWZs while at the same time alienating a large population of skilled and experienced PvPers by removing them in the first place. These players and guilds won't be around to queue for arenas; and therefore it's highly unlikely the number of people queueing for arenas would be enough to somehow nullify their initial reasoning for its removal.

The key point here is that many people were having fun playing 8v8 RWZs in SWTOR. Guilds built up around this core fact. Guilds attract social players and friends of members. BioWare removes 8v8 RWZs, guilds fall apart, social players and friends are also affected, the overall community on a given Server is affected. If every decision and action by BioWare results in people becoming unhappy and no longer finding the game fun; the game won't remain healthy for very long. People who take the attitude "oh just quit already if you don't like it" don't seem to realise that paying customers are leaving, and people aren't exactly flocking to take their place. Nor do they seem to realise that people are on here fighting for a part of the game they enjoy precisely because they don't want to quit; they want to continue playing the same game they've been enjoying since launch.

Good job adding something constructive to the thread; or even answering my question or addressing any of the points I raised. I'm pretty sure none of us 'incessantly' complain about anything other than the fact 8v8 RWZs is being removed and BioWare are killing PvP in their own game. I guess from your tone you don't agree with that sentiment nor care; however it's a pretty big deal for Coral as it's going to kill our Guild. If you don't like hearing about it; I suggest you stick to the PvE or class forums.

It should be pretty clear I meant three teams to submit to this event/tournament/whatever; i.e. 8-12 people. We're not refusing to make teams to make some sort of point; we simply don't have anyone interested in playing since they've removed 8v8 RWZs and failed to introduce anything substantial for PvP.

Link: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6704996&postcount=1 Is anyone actually putting together a submission for this? I love how they kill 8v8 RWZs and then try to promote 4v4s on Twitch; when the more successful Twitch Streams have streamed 8v8 RWZs for months. Indeed the vast majority of viewers on Twitch who watched SWTOR were watching it for 8v8s... apart from the first week after a new Operation comes out at least. I also love how they invite Guilds to participate; when in reality the replacement of 8v8 RWZs with arenas has done more to kill PvP Guilds in SWTOR than any other decision or patch or change since the release of this game. If 8v8s were still being supported; my Guild would probably have at least two or three teams interested in this. As it is we probably won't even make one team.

I was incredibly active until they announced the removal of RWZs; and now I barely log on. When I do login to Tomb of Freedon Nadd I see empty friends lists, one or two people online in a Guild which usually saw 10-12 online during the evenings even when we weren't playing RWZs, and whenever the queue pops I see a lot of inexperienced PvPers who I notice play very irregularly and I see no real familiar faces. I guess when the patch actually hits live that there'll be a renewed interest for a little while; but I don't see arenas keeping anyone entertained for long. Anyone coming back hoping arenas will provide anything in the way of competition or satisfaction will be sorely disappointed I feel.

People have been calling for even just a duelling area on the fleet; but BioWare has little love for its PvPers. For what it's worth I wish they'd do something like this.

Pretty much agree with everything you've said; but the point I've highlighted above is the most important I think. The PvPers in SWTOR have stuck around not for 1v1s or 4v4s, not for Open World PvP.... they've stuck around to play objective based 8v8 Warzones since that was the only option they had. That has been the only option for well over a year now... and suddenly it is being removed. I've watched my Guild and many others die a fairly rapid death over the past two weeks.... the PvP Community on Tomb of Freedon Nadd appears to be a shell of what it once was, although to be fair I've barely logged in much myself either. As you alluded to in your post; nobody is saying RWZs were perfect, or that arenas are an awful idea.... but arenas being the ONLY form of competitive PvP in a game which has provided only objective based 8v8 for over a year seems to be one of the worst decisions I've seen BioWare make since release. As every day goes by without further comment from BioWare, as I watch my Guild's forums and TS die... I despair a little more and at the same time get angrier and angrier. And now today they announce a publicity stunt centered around 4v4 Arenas and Guilds; and it makes me even angrier... don't they realise that the majority of competitive PvP based Guilds are already dead due to their own actions?

That assumes perfect balance is somehow achievable and exists in the game as it stands; but nothing could be further from the truth. I suggest you play some arenas against three Knights/Warriors and a Smuggler/Agent and see how many times they use AoE CCs to prevent and/or achieve a kill. To further highlight the impact of this change I suggest you queue without a Knight/Warrior or Smuggler/Agent and see how drastically it affects your survivability and effectiveness if you do not use grenades. The simple fact of the matter is that these disparities between classes and the amount of control they possess are glaring and even more apparent in arenas; but grenades glossed over this disparity by giving the teams without so much control a mechanism to mitigate that disadvantage. By no means am I suggesting they should homogenise class abilities entirely; but achieve a better balance between the classes before removing something that has been essential for competitive PvP since day one.

The point is that Knight/Warrior and Smuggler/Agent stacking now gives a slightly bigger payoff; especially in an arena setting. They have zero diminishing returns or immunities to worry about apart from those which are class abilities or the resolve system. Conversely teams which could rely on grenades to make up for some of their utility shortfalls are hit even harder by this nerf. Some other downsides: Idiots in normals or arenas who spam grenades for no reason will punish the rest of the team disproportionately. A bad grenade with the best of intentions in any setting will punish the rest of the team disproportionately; either in normals or arenas. Further highlights and compounds utility disparities between classes and specs; for example if I'm healing on my Commando I basically have no way to slow, root, or stun outside of my single target 4 second stun (which every class has, some with a shorter cooldown) or my cast-time single target 8 second mezz.

Good idea; let's tip the scales even more in favour of Smugglers/Agents and Knights/Warriors.

Here since Early Access, spent a metric **** ton on the Cartel Market to support the game I enjoyed playing; but the only thing I enjoyed was 8v8 RWZs with my Guild. Suffice it to say my playtime over the past week or two has been at an all time low; I tried arenas but it won't be enough to keep me playing, nor my Guild. I've tried really hard to support this game, give feedback to the PvP team; and I feel pretty cheated by their decisions lately.

Stop bringing Coral into this; it's a dick waving contest between Evolixe and Gerikke... and it seems you're trying hard to get into the dick waving game yourself. Evo said nothing to you people in the games we played, and your glorious leader decided to spam us with utter rubbish regardless. You should take a look at the people you're defending before you open your big mouth.

So just because you won't miss them; it means mostly everyone else won't? There is plenty of evidence indicating the contrary. As for B-dick and his tripe; this thread is about a Guild and Guilds being destroyed by the removal of 8v8 RWZs. Nobody cares which is the more competitive or otherwise; there's no such thing as a widely agreed standard for what constitutes "hardcore" or otherwise, and quite frankly it has no relevance to this topic. BioWare are removing content. This removal of content is causing Guilds, teams, and players to become deeply unhappy with the game and leave. The collapse of Guilds and teams is causing a knock-on effect which is poisoning the PvP Communities that currently exist in the game.

Of course they had reason to quit; Ranked 8v8 is being removed. I'm not sure what part of BioWare's announcement seems to be confusing you. The reality is that this announcement and the decision to abolish 8v8 RWZs has done a number of things: Tipped a few players over the edge and forced them to quit; people who enjoyed 8v8 RWZs exclusively and didn't spend much time in the game apart from that, for example. Confirmed once and for all where BioWare's priorities lie with respect to PvP and how much time and effort they're going to expend on it. Removed any incentive for Guilds to discuss tactics and strategies, recruit new players, try new set-ups, or actively try to improve from game to game and day to day. Fragmented whatever PvP Community was left between those who desperately want 8v8 RWZs to stay and who want to keep playing them right until the end; and those who are desperate to find some glimmer of hope by playing Arenas on PTS. Reduced the number of teams and people actively queueing; due to players losing interest for those reasons detailed above. Forced a number of Guilds to disband and other players to quit; Guilds and players held together and kept playing by the group of people they play with, and the collective enjoyment they got from 8v8 RWZs. If you or anyone else think that's somehow a good thing for this game, this community, or that we should welcome the precedent it sets in terms of a development strategy that includes removing content which is being actively played and enjoyed by many paying and loyal subscribers... I'm not sure how to respond to that.

Nobody is queueing precisely because BioWare is removing it; plenty of people were queueing beforehand. It's clear you're one of those people who tried to put a team together for RWZs and got completely annihilated; and are somehow bitter you can't get into a better team. Nobody is arguing that the barrier for entry was too high, or that RWZs are somehow perfect; people are simply saying add new options to PvP but don't remove something that people and more important entire Guilds currently enjoy.

Players and Guild play SWTOR for 8v8 RWZs and you're saying those people quitting because BioWare are removing 8v8 RWZs is somehow a "childish dummy spit"? 8v8 RWZs have been in the game for over a year, Guilds and Communities formed and evolved specifically to play 8v8 RWZs, Guilds and players paid money to centralise the 8v8 RWZ community mere weeks before BioWare announce they're removing it... in what universe is it unreasonable for those people to be deeply unhappy?

And another thing; 8v8 Warzones were the "unique" thing about PvP in SWTOR... especially Huttball. Other games do Arenas and do them a lot better than SWTOR; so why remove the ability to play the one thing SWTOR did well in terms of PvP? Arenas are nice, sure... but Arenas by themselves aren't going to do this game any favours.

I guess it kinda shows how much of a blow this is to some people who still enjoy the game mostly for 8v8.

8v8 Warzones. 8v8 provides an opportunity for the less well balanced classes to play competitively. For example Coral's 8v8 team currently consists of one of each class; whereas Arenas at the top level will likely not be so inclusive. 8v8 adds a layer of complexity and possibilities on top of simple deathmatch; it allows teams to turn matches around with clever team-play even though they may be out-gunned in damage or healing. For example stealth capping a side node in Civil War or a door in Voidstar even though you might be severely behind on kills. 8v8 fosters Community and togetherness; it promotes the forming of PvP centric Guilds which require some kind of organisation and leadership. Something which keeps people playing even when aspects of a game become stale; for example throughout all the time PvP was ignored by BioWare. Conversely there's no reason for PvP communities or Guilds to exist at all for Arenas, you just find your three buddies and queue whenever you want.

The problem is that they're removing the only way for two teams of 8 people to play objective-based Warzones against each other. Rating is a secondary concern for most of the people who are affected by this decision; although for 8v8 to be more inclusive it should just use the same match-making system as Arenas.

They're surely not "impossible", but BioWare clearly don't want to invest the resources necessary to implement them. Based on their comments in the past; they made a strategic decision to go for a reduced number of larger servers to make the need for cross-server less obvious and/or immediate. Nothing I've seen makes me believe they've changed that stance.

This is worth a listen; just play it in the background while you do your usual PvP thing. Some interesting points, and it's awesome to hear the passion some of these guys have for the game and the community. TL;DW: Absolutely everyone wants 8v8 to stay, most people also like the idea of having Arenas but certainly not at the expense of 8v8. Many people will leave the game and many Guilds will be broken up by the actions of BioWare.