FerkWork
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Huh? We have Dxun gear, no?
I assume they would tune NiM to 306 at 75 so we couldn’t just over gear it. Also, if we get future gear it would make it a joke again.
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Of course it wouldn’t satisfy everyone. On the other hand, we would have more control over our stats, could trade one for another in certain encounters, wouldn’t be forced to use ****** relics, etc. Nim crystals would be a thing (I’m not sure if they work in scaled content and haven’t seen any reports about it). Or people would just wait for new augments and tiers of gear knowing that it’ll help them to clear content they couldn’t handle before.
Yeah, I wouldn’t mind nims having stack and no-stack options. Raids with stacks could become a good training ground since the gap between hms and nims is now bigger than ever. Removing stacks from hms won't solve the problem because in 5.x. the difference was huge as well. They can gate chievos and shinies behind the harder option, or add new ones for completing it.
It would just be the same relative difficulty as stats control doesn’t matter since we gear the same and just the relative numbers would go up. Same people would pass and same people would fail so from a dev perspective probable not going to. Still would have to equal the difficulty as it is now. NiM crystals already work and override downscaling aspect if anyone needing a boost. Personally I don’t mind if it not scaled as that means I don’t have to buy the newest augments. And another key point is I think as you mentioned people want it scaled up so we can eventually over gear it just like 248, new augments, and 258 gear to trivialize the content again. I’m personally fine leaving as is or make it 75 but no new gear tiers to cheap it out. So I don’t see the fascination with making it 75 other than wanting to wait for new gear tiers to make it a joke again.
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If they did bump to 75, I hope everyone bought new augments for all their toons as they will be needed. Also, if they did raise to 75 and make it as hard as without stacks, will people still complain or will they accept like they are saying if it’s raised to 75? Cause ironically it will be at the very least more expensive to do the legacy raids.
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yeah, just that the devs only were considering it after beeing asked by some borred players.
but hey, it took these players a whole week to reclear that stuff. #worth
anyway, lets make it harder again so 20 guys can have some fun for another week.
It can be more people if people spent all the time complaining about loss of stacks to improve their gameplay and rise to the challenge even if it’s just like doing it in 248 more or less. Not a huge mountain but not just a flat road. If people don’t want to there’s always vm or sm and if they are bored of content then there is always other MMO’s with more frequent updates for their level of difficulty. Making NiM super faceroll to generate content for people it’s not intended for was a mistake the Dev’s fixed. But as it is those are the options.
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When you say pug... Some select group from a select discord? Or some regular Joe's from fleet...
Pug= pick up group. People from various discords of course as you said. NiM was never meant to be pugged by just regular joes/ anyone from random from fleets with zero coordination and little skill, that would be silly and defeat the purpose of NiM as that’s what Group finder is for those groups. You don’t see Mythic raids pugged by randoms in Boralus and those fail epically so why should it be different here. My point is If a competent group of people who normally don’t play together can coordinate to kill a bosses then yes it’s doable, and my point is that people saying NiM TFB especially DG is an impossible heal check are just wrong. What your average Joe can do is be on a team of average Joe’s and if they decide they want to be better put it in the work like we all did to improve. It’s going to take a lot more effort than experienced people but if they keep grinding at it’s doable if they are serious about NiM raiding and the dedication needed to understanding it.
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Did 4/5 TFB with a pug today. Still had an hour on the timer at Terror but had to stop do to people having to go for other raids. Still found plenty of time to meme on bosses. So whoever was claiming TFB without stacks was impossible that was very cute.
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While they are at it they should tune Rav and ToS to their original levels of difficulty. Plz and thanks.
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So you think its fine leaving both sides of the argument just escalating things like it is happening now ?
Im not asking for a change right now - as you so eloquently pointed out that is unrealistic.
The only change I think possible on such short notice would be reenabling the stacks completely which will piss off one side.
A reaction that I would expect would be something like:
"We see this change caused a lot of friction within the community. Please post suggestions for a compromise only in this thread (link to new thread) along with a brief reasoning. This is not the place to discuss or flame each other. if you dont post a suggestion, do not post at all at this point.
In 7 days the suggestion thread will close. Then a community vote will take place and the most popular 5 options will be brought to the dev team to look into. We will come back to you after a couple of days with an answer on whether and how quickly the top 5 selections can be implemented."
Being proactive with a statement like that, offering a clear path ahead beats letting issues like this fester.
If you expect BW to do any of that I don’t know where you’ve been for past 9 years as that has never happened before for any change. Plus as an aside letting popularity decide on exclusive content is asinine if in some wild delusion they entertained it. BW Devs have decided as that the stacks in MM was excessive trivialization and removed them.
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There's so much grade-A trolling and BS in this thread, it's hard to know where to begin. But begin I shall.
"NIM is meant to be hard, it was so EASY with VE stacks."
So, our guild easily clears HM TFB, one-shotting all bosses while casually chatting about whatever. Meanwhile, in NIM, we had been progressing on the Dread Guard for over a month. It took us a while to properly do all the mechanics correctly, but we got there eventually. In every pull, everyone was 100% focused and the only things spoken were call-outs for mechanics and other fight-related things. This content is SIGNIFICANTLY harder than HM, and just because you and your 1337 friends have had it on farm since it came out doesn't mean it isn't hard for the rest of us.
Correct it is not meant to be easy, I think that might speak towards the ease of VM but in any case that’s what it is MM is suppose to be a big jump from Veteran very hard for a select few as it’s the highest difficulty. VE stacks just turned it into being whatever meme around and easy kills with no cordination. It’s not super hard but it’s a bigger challenge now. One should always welcome a challenge.
"NIM is so easy, casuals could do it."
While VE stacks did make it a joke, NiM isn’t intended for casuals or mid tier raiders only the upper 1%. This is well known by dev standards
Yeah, OK. Have you seen the casuals in this game? I have. I've seen casuals fail numerous times to the first boss in MM Hammer Station. 99% of the population of this game wouldn't even dare to set foot in a NIM. The people that are even attempting NIM are a select few.
"You should be able to solo-heal NIM content!"
You shouldn’t be able to and the fact people were with Vm stacks shows how undertuned they are
OK there buddy, you come and do that for us then. Any repair bills will be sent to you, but that shouldn't be a worry because your heals are so great, right?!? What an asinine thing to say.
"You should really be only bringing specific classes into this fight."
While any class can is more than capable, fights aren’t meant to be designed to be fair they are meant to be punishing. If that means some classes are punished more than others so be it. It was always intended to optimize your comp for highest difficulty. You can clear with any comp but it will be harder. And unlike WoW where I will never get BiS on a single toon you can have it on any and all very quickly making it super easier to gear more so than needed. In any case, it’s intended for players at NiM level to multi class for optimum efficiency.
Why? People should be able to play whatever classes they want to play without that guaranteeing failure to progress. If the classes aren't balanced properly, that's not the players problems, that's BWs problem. And if BW fails to do anything about it, the only way to get there attention is to cancel subscriptions and hurt BW the only way they can: withholding their money.
I've yet to see a single video of any group clearing NIM TFB without VE stacks. If it's so "easy" as you claim, then put up or shut up.
Answers in quotes. People have killed Gods and Brontes without stacks among others and parses for NiM Terror have already without vm stacks.
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I never said every fight is balanced to be fair to every spec. Certain ones have significant challenges to overcome, and that's part of the fun of raiding anti-meta setups. If you think I was saying anything else, you should re-read. The problem is when the game is severely unbalanced on top of that. Currently, not only is PT the meta DD for nearly every encounter so because of its utility, but also because of the insane damage output coming from its broken tactical and set bonus, leaving everything else in the dust. Some others are optimal when self-cleanse is required, but that's it and it's always a noticeable DPS loss.
At the very least they need to get all classes to within the target range on the single-target dummy based on melee/range and dot/burst +/- 5% each that they claimed after the last major round of balancing in 5.x. If they can do that, I have no problem with stacks going away. They just made changes in the wrong order, leaving the raiding community reeling in the meantime.
Not only is it not nearly as easy to gear a ton of classes as you claim unless you're insanely rich or buy credits (in which case it is really fast, granted), it's completely beside the point. You're more than welcome to keep playing meta setups and changing with the wind, but I'll stick to playing with good players who actually stick with their main class through good and bad times. While I'll never quit over balance concerns and will continue to largely ignore current balance in my choice of class and raiding companions - that's the whole fun of it, and is a test of skill unlike just playing meta all the time - if the community dies out because of the current state of things, which it's very quickly doing, I just can't see continuing to enjoy the game for much longer. NiM pugs (actually random people, not just a select group over some Discord) were most of the fun I had in SWTOR, and they're all but dead right now.
Tbf most of the dps classes are balanced. Granted Bolster is doing some weird things with Force/Tech damage making those classes shine more in downscale content something that should be fixed in 70 content. I don’t think anyone disputes that Pyro could use some more nerfs but the Devs have been giving classes more options to increase their burst or sustained. That said dps is pretty balanced compared to previous expacs. As for Meta classes, you are more than welcome to continue to play the classes you like to play as the Ops are still more than clearable as them, my point being sometimes certain comps are just stronger and nothing wrong with playing that comp to maximize chances of clearing, granted when it’s on farm no one really cares as long as the person knows how to play the class. As for hearing this game pretty much just hands you tech frags for set bonus and mods to easily make a set. I have 5 characters geared despite only casually playing fps for a few hours at beginning of expac and raid logging for helping manage a team that is working on Gods right now. This is the easiest it’s ever been gearwise, and nothing compared other MMO’s gearing system like WoW in terms of ease. All and all all classes are more than capable of clearing and to be honest it’s the hardest difficulty it’s not meant to just be pugged with little coordination. That’s what Groupfinder is for.
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Mathematically, a duo of Sorc healers are more than capable to pump out raw HPS needed to clear a fight if you want to insist on that comp but at NiM level you should always play for the benefit of the team not yourself. There will always be a class that is better and they’ve already said they are looking into essentially buffing Sorc healer down the road. As for meta classes, well some classes are better at some fights vs others and the way fights work it goes to there advantage. I will let you in on a stated fact that NiM isn’t suppose to be balanced around being fair to all specs and some classes will do better and have an advantage. It’s incredible easy to level, gear up classes for alts in this game and alt effectively in this game so having any class and all classes for anyone wanting to raid NiM is pretty easy.
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I think one thing that needs to be said and I sympathize with is that due to the lack of content, the only thing VM level of guilds have other than waiting years for the next op is try their hand at NiM. So I can understand why people would be upset if they can no longer progress on it, but the fact is that the Devs want it to be current content so it has to be challenging. Usually this was done by having gear checks as a form of a gradual soft nerf mechanic like WoW has since only being able to get better gear was by doing the harder content. Now that for the last 3 expacs we have been able to get easy BiS (minus the rng debacle of early 5.x) before even stepping foot in NiM means that they have to keep the tuning of NiM somewhat a challenge especially now with the bolster to 70. The difficulty is still easier than it was in some updates but it’s no longer just complete face roll. I think the biggest issue is that this is caused by lack of content for all tiers of raiders since it leads to using higher tiers as new content and leads to situations like these. That said the choice to remove stacks was the right one.
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Everyone loves to say that 248 gear was overgeared for nim but everyone loves to conveniently forget that when 5.0 dropped Shadow dps and tanks had double stance bug allowing shadow dps to parse nearly 12k dps and tanks to take literally no damage at all due to having like 80% shield, so yea nim in 242 was doable because of things like that, when they fixed that, and nerfed a lot of other DPS specs, nim was doable but it was very very hard, and so they released 248s and 236 augs to compensate for the dps nerfs. Then they nerfed everything again when 252 and 258 came out, so I would say 258s was slightly overgeared for NIMs, but not drastically.
Either way, I was clearing nim in 2.0, 3.0, 4.0, 5.0 in 240s, 242s, 248s, 252s, 258s, and now all of a sudden I am big struggling to clear stuff, it should be harder then it was but not THIS hard its dumb right now how hard some of the checks are.
It’s still easier than doing it in 230 gear after the stances were fixed. If that’s the case then that’s perplexing to be struggling now if what you say is true. Like I said to the other person, check your logs and see where the problem and breakdown is occurring and take steps to correct it. If a group does that it may take a bit to put it back on farm but you will if you are good enough. I mostly play WoW now and killing current content may take a bit till it’s on farm granted if BW has Blizzard level resources it would have been hot fixed the day of but still no one would take a serious request as made here to make Mythic tuned to Heroic.
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OK there, Mr. Elitist D-Bag. Most of the raiders on my team have been raiding since 1.0 or 2.0. They did the content back then, same as you, but often ended up being unable to complete content due to 1-2 crappier/mediocre players on the team. Those crappy/mediocre players have since been replaced, and we've been doing pretty good, but again there are some of us that are new to NIM, and of course there's the issue of team coordination. We've actually made great strides on both of those two things, and as I've said, have been getting closer and closer in our progression. Our DPS isn't the problem, but the massive heals check on the Dread Guard fight was holding us back.
Also, saying we're voer-geared/over-powered, when our stats are being arbitrarily lowered, with no control over things like power and mastery, I'd say you're full of crap. "Back in your day" your stats mattered and you had control over it, we don't have that now.
Check logs see what’s happening. Are you failing the heal check or are you taking too much damage due to lower dps casing phases to last longer, tanks cleaving each other, improper use of dcds, etc... You’ll find much work for improvement by doing that and going from there.
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Finally some new content, salt.
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NGL, the amount of salt and tears over stack removal has provided more content for me than this game has in years. Community generated content is the best.
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I just absolutely disagree with this idea that only 1% of raiders should be able to do NiM content. I’m not arguing that we should turn NiM into hello kitty island adventure but it’s stupid to make content for 1% of people. 5%? Maybe that’s more sensible.
But NiM content should absolutely not just be doable by like 5 teams globally (like gods is right now, for example).
It’s already was glorified VM. When you have non existent dps and heal checks, people can afk meme on bosses then yeah it was a clown fiesta. This just brings up the difficulty not a true NiM experience but less a clown fiesta. Only in this game do people want the hardest difficulty to be not a true challenge. I’m sorry but I can look at WoW which I mainly play these days, where 1% of guilds actually fully clear the raid by the time the tier ends and people and me are fine with that. Not everything is for everyone. The gearing system already devalued the hardest difficulty. Veteran Stacks just made it even worse.
Yes I’m aware they should be prioritizing new challenging content but I’m well aware their resources. So people only have the old content to so keeping it challenging makes it a reward in itself of clearing. Personally I’m indifferent since I’m only interested in new content but the amount of I can’t clear this because the pepega stacks are gone is hysterical levels of nonsense.
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I also disagree with this, most people are just mad that mediocre players in 5.10/6.0 that got carried by gear can't clear what is supposed to be hard content anymore. So perhaps instead of complaining all the time, you should just think about how YOU can improve rather than the game.
Hi son.
If these people here think that because NiM isn’t complete faceroll anymore, I wonder what people would think when they were released and we had fewer abilities and dcds and people had no idea how the bosses worked when figuring it out. Or of Mythic raiding in WoW or Ultimate in FF. Look yeah it’s pretty memes that they can’t release content, but asking for the very few content that provides somewhat a challenge to be faceroll is pretty pepega. It’s meant to be cleared only by the 1% or less. Instead of asking for nerfs why don’t people decide to buff themselves by just doing better?
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ITT: VM raiders complaining about they can’t full clear a NiM Op and have to settle with a partial clear. It’s not meant to be facerolled. It’s like asking Mythic raids to be at the level of LFR.
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KIlling the NIM community!
This is an awful change! Bioware needs to return the stacks, even 15 would be okay- I know a lot of elitist NIM raiders will say oh its such a great challenge. But this change takes NIM back to a place where only a very very small percentage of the games population can do it and that just Isn't fair! Content should be accessible to those who are trying to impove and progress. YES NIM should be hard but my guilds raid teams went from progging last bosses to not being able to kill 2/5 TFB overnight- it just isnt fair to community and it saddens me to see bioware taking a step in the wrong direction on the Nightmare difficulty.
I went from a SM scrub to a scrappy HM raider then into NIM prog, back to HM cause I wasnt ready then back to NIM, in 5.0 I got SNV timer, EC timer 4/5 TFB+Survivals and Monolith HM, the tuning of NIM was great in 5.0 even with 248 or 242 gear though a bit harder than Id have liked would have been okay this is just INSANITY mode.
I hope they add back the stacks or at least some of them, hell make a way for groups to remove the stacks if they want a challenge, perhaps remove them in Gods as that is the most recent content so hardcore raiders can get the challenge they want, (NIM duxn should serve as this as well when it drops) But please bioware this change will shut many NIM guild out of the community and will kill raiding making it something only the top 1% can accomplish and I very much dont wish to see that return.
BRING BACK THE STACK!
No offense, but have you thought that maybe your group aren’t up to NiM full clear standards right now and should get more practice in? It’s the hardest difficulty for a reason. It’s meant to be cleared by only the 1%. It’s not suppose to be fair. It’s liking asking Blizzard to make Mythic raids as hard as LFR. NiM for like 3 years has been glorified VM with no dps or heal checks whatsoever. Now it’s slightly harder and people complain. It’s still easy just not Uber easy.
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This will probable come in a future update to make cross faction queuing for pve content a thing. Just takes awhile with their resources. Funny this is also a much demanded feature in WoW as well right now. Most likely BW will provide a way for any content that is the same on both sides.
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In the past as in pre 4.0 when there was a some semblance of progression raiding in the game, you geared by doing progressively harder content with BiS coming as an after reward for completing content. Now, as BiS not only is it nothing much in value but the gear itself and scaling trivialize any of the content checks in the game. The irony of Gods being still an actual Op that is of NiM quality is due to a bug right now. It’s essentially farm for people that can actual play at a NiM level right now, the same farm since 2015 for some. Now whether you enjoy that is up to the person but Swtor is not a progression raiding game anymore. You are already over-geared before setting foot an instance. How can it be challenging if you are already BiS? NiM raids are for the most part glorified HM content. But this process has been ongoing since 4.0, and is in reflection of the raiding population in the game currently. If you are in Swtor for a competitive challenging PvP or PvE you are going to be disappointed. It’s a casual game and best played as one.
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The system reflects the current state of the game and it’s population and how it’s shrunk over the years like any MMO in a genre that’s been declining. This has meant little structural support for competitive content as that has always been a minority and requires a base to support. This system is also very easy to maintain which helps with how things are run. Groups mostly run because they have stayed together over the years. This game is very casual and non competitive and reward structure has been shifted to reflect that. The biggest thing is by making Swtor not the only game you play as I did that for years. Once I found that in other games, playing this game very casually and drop in and out is much more pleasant experience. Accepting the realities of the situation and the game for what it is the best course. I once thought that radical change would fix things but it’s not realistic for this game. Honestly if you aren’t enjoying it as I found the last few years it’s best to play this on the side or find another game. That’s what I did.
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Hey folks,
Thank you for the feedback so far, keep it coming! A couple of changes that we are going to make based on your feedback. First, we are not going to make any of the listed Sorc / Sage changes in 6.1. These changes are part of larger changes that are coming for healers, however, as many of you pointed out it has knock on effects for DPS as well. For this reason we are going to hold those changes until a future patch when the rest of the changes are planned.
Second, we have one additional quality of life change for Marauders and Sentinels coming in 6.1:
Marauder
Carnage
- The Fanged God Form tactical item now only removes the Hyper Buff when a damaging ability other than Massacre is used (previously the buff was removed on any ability other than Massacre, not just damaging abilities).
Sentinel
Combat
- The Fanged God Form tactical item now only removes the Hyper Buff when a damaging ability other than Blade Rush is used (previously the buff was removed on any ability other than Blade Rush, not just damaging abilities).
Thanks.
-eric
Thank you. The most reasonable thing would be a small buff to madness and leave the rest of Sorc dps as is.
- The Fanged God Form tactical item now only removes the Hyper Buff when a damaging ability other than Massacre is used (previously the buff was removed on any ability other than Massacre, not just damaging abilities).
Return Veteran's Edge stacks to NIM Raids
in General Discussion
Posted
It has zero effect on me either as I have more than enough credits to gear anything and all, it’s more of a case I hope people understand what they are wishing for if they want all it be bumped up.