Yes good players will still be good. Will they be good enough to clear conent? Well the top ten Lightening sorcs can potentially put out enough dps that with game mechanics they could still clear NiM Styrak in 248 gear: http://parsely.io/parser/leaderboard/sorcerer/lightning/2500000/all/live/1/ No one in the madness category can do so, which is really bad: http://parsely.io/parser/leaderboard/sorcerer/madness/2500000/all/live/1/ I'm guessing I could go through all the classes listed shallow end of the DPS pool here https://torcommunity.com/guides/miscellaneous/class-rankings and find the same result. There may be some 1%ers in their various classes that can hit the necessary numbers. What about the other 99% of paying players though? To answer any questions about why I continue to pay to play the game, that is simple, over five years of playing I have developed some real friendships in game, and I still enjoy doing stuff with those friends. Enough so to justify the relatively minimal expense of the sub. However, as more of those friends which started as virtual friends and many of whom have become IRL friends, gradually grows frustrated and leaves, I will admit that my incentive to continue to pay said sub is decreasing. I write these posts because I don't want to leave game, and don't want my friends to leave game. I want BW to realize that they have a broken system where some classes, some very popular classes, simply are not viable for endgame content and work to fix that. I'm not asking for buffs, or even my own favorite classes, PT and Guardian for those who wonder, to be boosted up to be the highest parsing classes. I simply want them to balance PvE so that all classes are viable for all content at the recommended gear ratings. I shouldn't have to have two tiers above recommended rating to simply be viable in certain content. I certainly shouldn't be able to be 2 tiers above recommended rating and not be viable for certain content. For me the drop rate of tier 4 gear from crates is only part of a bigger problem. That balance in this game simply doesn't exist in any rational form. PvE is a total mess and only gettig worse with the "balancing" nerfs that instead of balancing things only made greater disparities and sunk more classes into the not viable for all content category. PvP is also a mess, so playing that to get 242 and 248 gear is frustrating at best, especiall with the drop rates. Ideally here is what I would like to see happen that I think would be the best for both PvE and PvP: 1) Nerf ops bosses so that they can be realistically cleared by all classes in the recommended gear. Taking into account actual DPS drop offs resulting from mechanics. 2) Make unassembled components act like WZ coms did in 4.0. Namely a base number gained for participation, more for a win, and additional ones earned for WZ medals gained. There is no reason that someone who is actually trying and earns 20 medals should get the same amount as the guy who goes AFK in stealth in a corner somewhere. Nevermind when the AFKer says he'll guard objective, but allows it to be captured because he really just wants the WZ to end earlier. Also make them legacy transferrable, just as WZ coms were. 3) Actually balance the classes and as much as possible do away with the FOTM class. Make that balance not just about theoretical DPS output but what actually happens in game mechanics. 4) Return to the 1.0&2.0 system of abilities having different PvE and PvP characteristics so that PvE and PvP can be balanced separately once again. That is my personal wish list(and recommendations). To be honest even if BW were to do those things, I don't think or expect that they would get it right straight away, but the attempt with necessary tweaks over time to get it right(not ignoring problems for 6+ mos) would make me and I think a lot of other people very happy campers.

Good point. But then let us look at the needs. Here are the max DPS output(assuming you don't win the RNG lottery with crit but what could be on average expected) of all classes post 5.2. Note it hasn't been adjusted down yet for the various nerfs: https://torcommunity.com/guides/miscellaneous/class-rankings Here some helpful people have done the math to figure out the DPS checks for every NiM boss: http://yourcompanion.clanwebsite.com/372356/topic/50-nightmare-checks-jpq Note that say NiM Styrak requires over 9k sustained DPS. That is with the various mechanics that reduce your DPS like the Kell Dragon spin. Even before the nerfs there were several classes that could only get over 9k DPS in full 248 gear and with a perfect rotation devoid of human error on a dummy without limiting mechanics. For those classes to be able to clear content they will realistically need full 248 gear and a very expensive consumable known as Crystal of Nightmare Fury. So yes there is actual and real need. For those of us who enjoy progression raiding and attempting harder endgame content with our friends this gear grind to be able to realistically play portions of the game is frustrating in the extreme. I would like to point out that the recommended gear for NiM is 236, but let's be honest most classes can't put out the necessary DPS in 236. I get that people playing PvP don't want to die to fast as that takes away enjoyment from the game. However, people playing PvE want to be able to clear PvE content on their favorite class. Why does one have to suffer for the other? Why are classes being nerfed out of NiM viability for the sake of PvP? Why do PvE bosses have some ridiculously high DPS checks that simply aren't achievable by many classes, and very few classes in the recommended gear?

Serious Question: Did you miss the many times when devs said: The game isn't currently balanced and won't be until after 5.4. Comparing classes or declaring incompetence at this point is just premature. I get your frustration, as someone who probably had their class nerfed while others so far have remained untouched. However to see whether they are doing a good job or not we have to wait to see what happens in 5.4. Oh and if you want to compare DPS I suggest that you use this listing https://torcommunity.com/guides/miscellaneous/class-rankings and get the algorithm used to calculate it and run the average parses of the new balanced classes... If 5.4 doesn't bring Lethality down to PT(what I've mained since 3.5) then there will be reason to complain.

Actually that should be right then. If IO has a potential of 9600 dps, Arsenal is supposed to be 5% below that. 5% of 9600 is 480, so Arsenal should be putting out 9120. Welcome to the new reality.

When has it ever been a "light tap" from BW? Truth be told some of the DOT MDPS classes are performing more than 10-15% above other DOT MDPS classes, most specifically 10-15% above Hatred Assassin and Pyrotech PT that were supposed to have been buffed up to their Target Number TM in 5.3, so I think it's going to be far more than a light tap, those other classes are going to have to be brought down to the Target Number TM.

Sadly I don't think so. Some classes simply cannot put out the necessary numbers to clear some HM bosses even in 248 gear, and others needed 248 gear to be able to clear HM bosses(which were supposed to be doable in 230). These nerfs aren't going to help that.

And what is the necessary actual DPS output for say Styrak HM? If ranged in BiS gear is only hitting 8.5k on a dummy, can they even possibly put out the necessary numbers to clear it in the recommended 230 gear with the mechanics necessitated down time in DPS(Kell Dragon Spin)? I think we all know the answer. I think it is clear that communication is not occurring between whoever balances things and whoever designs endgame PvE content.

Start point: Can all classes clear all content at recomended gear rating(230 for HM 236 for NiM) with recommended group composition 2T 4D 2H. The simple answer to that is no. From 5.0 at least there were some classes that had to be overgeared or even in 248 BiS gear to even put out the numbers necessary to clear HM content(Sorc/Sage DPS and and a few other specs). What these nerfs have done is simply drop more classes/specs into the not viable category. My parses on my Arsenal Merc took a 2k dive from yesterday to today. Gonna switch to IO to see if that is any better, otherwise I'm going to have pull out of my prog team because my class can simply no longer pull it's own weight. If every class can pass content in recommended gear, than I really don't care if MDPS DOT has a 10% swing over RDPS Burst. I don't need to be the most powerful class in game, and I don't need to be murder on two feet in PvP, that isn't why I play PvP. However, as not every class could, even before the nerfs put out the necessary numbers to clear content in the recommended gear, with the recommended group composition, we started with a broken model that only got more broke when they started swinging the nerf hammer.

Merc DPS weren't OP in PvE, only in PvP. One of the key problems is once again having PvE and PvP linked in balance. I absolutely agree with you that Sorc DPS is broken. I've played a madness Sorc since 3.0 as one of my favorite alts(admittedly I've mained PT or Jugg when playing on a prog team and a Merc when leading a prog team). Sorc since the 4.5 nerfs(once again for PvP) haven't been able to put out sufficient DPS to clear HM content without being carried. Looking on Parsely there are only 14 lightening Sorcs that pass the minimum DPS to be carrying your weight in Styrak fight, and not a single madness sorc, and that is with 248 gear. I get your frustration if you faithfully main a sorc, however the solution isn't to nerf mercs so that they are as broken as sorcs. The solution is to buff sorcs so that their dmg is sufficient to clear content. No class should need to be over geared to clear PvE content. The answer to the balance problem will never be to destroy other classes so that they can't clear content, or need to be over geared.

Because then they would be forced to admit that their system and models are broken. That they have moved a lot of endgame content out of the reach of people who play certain classes/specs. Then they would have to go back to the drawing board, and the PvP crowd would be up in arms because PvP still isn't balanced.

Starting to feel like the new spirit of communication is that they talk at us more, while talking to us is still equally lacking.

Nope. I want to see them do HM EC in max 230 gear and NiM DP in 236 gear as that is the recommended gear for those raids. Also I want to see it with two seer/corruption sages. Truth is until every class can clear all content at recommended gear level PvE is simply broken.

In recommended gear many can't, there are some that can't even in BiS gear. With the incoming nerfs, more will be put into the can't category. It is really just that simple. Some will be dropped into "a really skilled player in BiS gear can still give sufficient output to clear Vet(HM)" however, MM(NiM) will be moved out of reach of all but a few classes/specs. It is there in the numbers, and it is the elephant in the room that BW doesn't want to address because with the removal of PvP gear, they have tied PvP and PvE balancing together in a way that is detrimental for them both.

All valid points. However, I still contend that the overall model of target DPS is broken. Let's look at the current "theoretical possibles" https://torcommunity.com/guides/miscellaneous/class-rankings Again referencing Styrak Vet(HM). With 5dps you need to put out 7.2k each. If you go in as the op is intended with two tanks and 4dps you are looking at over 8k dps to clear the raid. You are supposed to be able to achieve that in 230 gear. However, based on torcommunity class rankings, and the theoretical possible DPS assuming BIS gear and a perfect rotation, there are some classes that are hard pressed to reach that even in 248 gear. You factor in down time, and mechanic induced DPS reductions(such as the Kell Dragon spinning) and I would argue that at least 2 of the ranged classes can't possibly hit the necessary DPS target to clear the raid, for sure not in the recommended gear, and probably not in 248 bis gear. I'm not saying that balancing of classes doesn't have to happen, there is definitely some imbalance here. However, my contention is that any balance should ensure that the PvE content can be cleared by all classes/specs in the intended gear and while playing with the intended group makeup of 2T 4D 2H. Now we can go with all these nerfs(which will take even more classes/specs) out of that ability range. We could go with buffs, though that idea supposedly would damage PvP as it would cause PvP kills to happen too quickly. So right now we are being forced into a model that breaks endgame PvE to balance PvP. Personally I think PvE and PvP need to be balanced separately, and I think that BW needs to look at their endgame PvE content and whether it can be cleared by all specs with the recommended gear and the recommended group make up. Once those things are brought in order, we can begin talking about nerfs and buffs. Right now however, they just come off as clueless as to what is actually going on in game.

Hi Eric and Keith, In my personal opinion for class balancing to be hit right, every dps class should be able to produce sufficient actual output to clear all PvE content. I think we all know that HM Styrak is one of the greatest DPS checks in the game. When 5.0 dropped gear rating for HM(Vet) ops was 230. Using the tactic of having only one tank and your off tank switching to dps gear and spec, your 5 DPS still need to put out 7.2k actual DPS to down this boss within the enrage timer. That isn't theoretical DPS or what is possible on a dummy, that is actual DPS which requires time off target to adjust to boss mechanics, and things like the kell dragon going into his spin and taking significantly less damage. Does your "Target DPS" allow for each and ever DPS spec to output the needed 7.2k DPS actual in the recommended 230 gear? If not, then nerfs are not called for, but rather buffs(Here's a hint, there are some classes such as Lightening Sorc and Markmanship sniper that struggle for that even in 248 gear). I have heard and understand your argument that if you buff all DPS to be equal to the higher outputs it will make PvP kills too fast. Honestly what we are seeing and some of us are actually feeling is the difficulty of balancing both PvP and PvE and balancing them together. However, if you want this game to work, then you either have to balance so that every spec can do the necessary dmg in the recommended gear, separate PvP and PvE balancing(like maybe bring back PvP gear) or start nerfing ops bosses so that even with the nerfs, every spec can still reach the necessary DPS at the recommended gear levels. I don't need to be the most powerful class in game. However, I do want the classes that I like to play to be able to put out the necessary damage to clear content without having to be horribly over geared.

I leave reg arenas because their rewards are so dreadful. Can't wait to get off loading screen so I can simply exit the warzone and find something that will give decent rewards. I realize that CXP is still pretty much the same, but considering how dreadful my luck has been with gear from command crates, I'm after the unassembled components. I've actually gotten more gear with unassembled components in the last week than I have with my 200+ GC levels previously. Arenas, win or lose give less, so I have no desire to be there.

Would pay real money for a decent set of Jedi robes that doesn't require a skirt to look good. Right now I have settled(yes settled) for a combo of Relnex top and Exiled master everything else. Would love to see something a little more classicly Jedi like.

I explained the gearing system to my daughter. At first she thought I was trying to prank her. When I finally demonstrated that it was indeed true she said, "That is the stupidest thing ever. Who would make such a stupid game? Who would play such a stupid game?" After that, I decided to take over my kids chores for the night and my wife's division of the housework, because I would pretty much rather do anything than play this game with these "rewards". Please dear Devs see what my 9yr old daughter does... This is is a stupid system.

I'm sorry but that is not what they said. They said they were going to up the SM Uprisings and FPs by about 50% and make the Vet mode ones by maybe up to 80% to make them(the vet mode ones) equal to PvP, because they are really happy with the number of people PvPing currently. For those of us who like Progression Ops, you know doing HM and NiM with our friends, that is currently gated behind a grind of other content and a broken RNG system. Yes I said a broken system because they said in their massivelyop interview that "according to their models" no one should leave a tier without having attained a full set of set bonus at that tier. I know seven people from one of my guilds who have capped out of tier one and only gotten 1 piece of set bonus gear... This is not working as intended or advertised. To add further insult to injury they don't plan on putting in anything to alleviate this problem until March-April... I tried to explain this reward system to my 9yr old daughter. At first she didn't believe me, she thought I was pranking her. Then once I convinced her that it was true she said, "That is the stupidest idea ever!!! Who would make such a stupid game? Who would play such a stupid game?" Seeing her point, I decided to do the dishes even though it was my wife's night. At least for that I know I'm getting a real and tangible reward:D

1 week, one op per night. In 4.0, it took me a weekly in PvP(20 Warzones) to get a 204 set. Then I think two more weeks to upgrade that to a 208 set. For my chars that already had set bonus from 3.X, It took me roughly 1 week of 1 op per night in pug runs. If guildies were going to power gear me through EV/KP or SNV speed run it could be done in about an hour. Which also gave us a way to get guildies into harder endgame content if they wanted. This expac I've played(on a single char) 6 SM Ops, 13 Vet Uprisings, 4 HM Flashpoints, 7 Planetary missions and 270 unranked warzones. For which I've gotten 3 gear upgrades. To put it another way, I explained this system to my 9yr old. At first she didn't believe me. Then when I convinced her it was true she said, "That is the stupidest thing ever, why would anyone make a game like that? Why would anyone want to play a game like that?"

73 Crates 2x MH(only needed it once) Set Chest piece Set bracers 1 Earpiece. In that I have run 6 SM Ops, 13 Vet Uprisings, 4 HM Flashpoints, 7 Planetary missions and 270 unranked warzones. I get that they may have wanted to slow down endgame gearing, but this is crazy. My favorite content is HM/NiM Ops, I don't see myself able to get geared to even start that anytime in the near future.

So not the case. I'm simply a player who would like to be able to play a few hours each week with his friends and guild mates. Help new players learn the came. Experienced players become better, and with the veteran players that I've been playing with for years(doing this same content btw), I would like to be able to progress into NiM content before the next expansion and gear grind hits. However since most of my friends are casual players, that is not going to happen this year. They and I simply don't have the time to gear up, so we are thus excluded from the gaming that we enjoy the most as a group of friends. Can I still help new players learn? Sure, but not as easily or as efficiently. Now during ops, fps, ect I'm going to have to focus my rotation, I don't have the wiggle room to slack off in a SM, because, 41 crates in, I've only gotten 3 upgrades. Further to that, I have a large social guild, that would like to run 16m content because we like being social and we like having a lot of events so that we can be social. Unfortunately, already we are seeing a lack of people wanting to do anything other than 4m content because that is where the best rewards are... So no it has nothing to do with being elitist or having the best gear right away. It has to do with needing to play the game like a part time job in order to eventually get to the content I enjoy and being able to fully fulfill my duties as an officer in my guild.

I love a challenge too. Unfortunately though HM ops are gated behind certain minimum gear ratings, as are NiM ops. I have now gotten 40crates. From those 40 crates I've gotten 1 Earpiece(actually I've gotten the same purple earpiece 7 times, but can only use one), 1 MH, and 1 Set bonus piece. Musco said it would take on average 1hr of play time per level, and as the points necessary increase, it's going to take far more at the top levels. At current rate, I will be lucky to get one character fully geared for HM and NiM ops, nevermind my many alts(8 of which BW encouraged me to create for DVL). Many of my friends and guild members simply will not be able to put in the time necessary to get geared... My prog team that I've played with since 3.x, some of my best friends in game, can no longer do the content together that we like. We used to be able to set a night aside each week, play through an op, get gear, move on... Over the course of 2-3mos be ready for HM ops. Start the HM ops, after several more mos, be ready for NiM ops. That is gone. I like the idea that people aren't forced to play certain content for certain rewards. However, the play time now necessary to partake of some content is absurd. I also don't like the simple fact that I'm being forced to pick one of my many alts to solely play on if I want decent gear. In short this was a good idea, that was implemented very poorly.

Nope, did it today with a Shield Tech PT alternating btwn DPS and Healing comp. I don't I'll have a chance at the 15min achieve with that, but doing it wasn't a problem. It was actually easier to keep my comp out of things on the floor ect. as a tank than as a DPS.

Here you go: Found here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8907942#edit8907942