gee, and unlike commandos, we actually have the tools to dump aggro long enough to get heals off... and Gee, imagine that, because we have HOT's even while we are playing team healer we can STILL find the time to drop impressive DPS on the enemy via DOT's. Your 'pure' healer sage may have better mitigation by spending 100% of her time throwing bubbles and direct heals, but that isn't going to help break a rage timer, is it? and, I might add, HOT's still keep healing EVEN if I am CC'd or stunned. entirely irrelevant fact you are trying to bring up to deflect attention and add to your wall of text. oh? are you using a packet sniffer? As opposed to you going around implying people are incompetent liars because they find your 'facts' to be entirely incompatible with reality? Pot, Kettle. I have tested much of it in Rakata gear, and I find your results both inconclusive and potentially flawed. You are also trying to compare facts in a vacuum, since you make claims that 'soloing' is no real test of the class. You cannot test solo kill speeds and then claim that soloing is invalid. logic fail. Good guess. because, frankly, I think you are lying. Shadows have possibly WORSE energy starvation issues against 'large' mobs solo than scoundrels/ops do. Actually, so are yours. you need to add ALL healing/mitigation tools into your calculations or, as you have, you obtain a brutally incorrect assessment of utility. in point of fact, even dps addition to a fight counts as 'mitigation', since a dead enemy does no damage. if you claim your 'pure healspec' sage or trooper can provide as much sheer mitigation in terms of not only healing, shielding, HOT's, CC mitigation, and additional damage, you are horribly and woefully mistaken. channeled heals are, perhaps THE worst/most inefficient form of healing in the game due to both pushback AND an enormous amount of time wasted. try again. I don't understand why you keep acting like UH is such A huge problem. it takes a single global cooldown to obtain (during which you are adding to dps/cc) and you don't have a hell of a lot else to DO with it. I usually wind up ending every single fight with UH, and usually spend half the fight with at LEAST 1 point wasted. UH is EASY to obtain for any competent scoundrel. I do know my facts, I am still saying that you are spewing what comes out of the north end of a soutrhbound steer. rofl you are so feared (snort) and yet here you are claiming that scoundrels suck. hmmm.... have you considered therapy? It sounds like you are trying hard to overcompensate for terrible self-esteem. There are better places to do that than the boards. Oh, I am shaking in my boots, truly, your claims of being a GOD of PVP have truly shown me the error of my ways and proven that every single person that comes in here and says they think their scoundrel/operative is a great class is incompetent, retarded, or blind. /sarcasm. IF you are4 feared in PVP it is because of one reason and one reason only. You are using the class that is the indisputed master of PVP. in fact, scoundrels are SO much the master of PVP that Bioware's datamining required TWO nerfs to try to bring them under control... and yet Ops and Scounds are still typically at the top of the kill stats in pvp zones. but please, do laugh it off as 'everyone they fight must be incompetent then'. because that statement, earlier in the thread alone, proved that you were biased and thus everything you have attempted to state as 'fact' since is strongly suspect.

I have come to the conclusion that neither the OP nor sligxx/ich_bin above have actually played scoundrels/operatives. They are just picking skill names from a spreadsheet and talking about how 'bad' they are as a way to try to discourage people from playing them, because they are tired of ops/scounds kicking their butts in PVP.

If you think we do not have ranged options, you do not understand the class. please do not use a logic fail and then try to act like you are disproving someone else's logic.

shadows cannot heal. and the better sustained damage/burst/dps conclusion relies on hard numbers which you simply do not have. Which means, frankly, you are pulling numbers out of your butt. That's another term for LYING. prove it. once again, show me hard numbers. if you do not have them, you are GUESSING. or LYING. scoundrel HOT's are not as subject to interruption, and 'better survivability' only assumes that you do not stealth in a fight and lose aggro. the only other class that can ditch aggro or simply flee cannot heal. I love the way that you keep pointing to a quarter of our abilities, falsley compare that to another class, and then hold up a sign saying 'This proves that scoundrels are broken. The only thing you have done, with all your ranting is prove that you are not competent to play a scoundrel. so stop. roll up a shadow and never heal again. or roll up a commando healer and talk about how 'awesome' your heals are... since they have to be since you don't have an interrupt to stop some of the boss big-damage attacks from doing massive damage to your team. or talk about how 'survivable' your sage is because you can throw up a shield, and ignore the fact that the scoundrel can simply ignore that damage by dumping aggro. seriously, go back to playing your sage, and let the rest of us keep enjoying scoundrels. You are not competent to play a scoundrel in the big leagues.

So, the TL->DR version of this entire thread is: SCOUNDRELS SUCK BECAUSE I CAN FIND EXAMPLES OF OTHER CLASSES THAT CAN DO ONE PART OF WHAT WE DO IN A DIFFERENT WAY! I CANNOT FIGURE OUT HOW TO PLAY SCOUNDRELS! THE CLASS MUST BE BROKEN! I HAVE A LEVEL 50 AND SO I KNOW EVERYTHING AND ANYONE THAT THINKS SCOUNDRELS ARE FUN OR USEFUL IS WRONG BECAUSE I SAY SO! Can we just close this tired whine thread now?

*sigh* people always demand your pedigree. I have a 50 Operative on Bergeren colony I have a 38 scoundrel on Drooga I have a 35 Marauder on Beregren colony I have a 36 trooper on Drooga I have a 50 powertech on Drooga I have a 44 shadow on drooga I have a 29 gunslinger on drooga and many more. I am an altoholic and I don't sleep much. Outside, I have over 12 level 50's on CoH. 3 max levels on DAoC, several high-levels on anarchy online, a battleship pilot I haven't played in 5 years on EvE online, several max level characters on champions online, a metric ton of characters in wow (several were endgamers when i left, but at the time I left the max level was 70...no clue what it is now) an enormous number of level 50's in everquest (back when it was the only one and it was HARD) and a UO playtester beta account. Heck, i even have a bunch of endgamers from games like perfect world, guild wars (in which endgame does not exist), and even wizard101 and so many friggin korean MMO's that I don't remember their names. from a writing point of view, I was a graphic designer in Frayed Knights RPG (look it up on google, I am not allowed to give you the url... but if you buy a copy I make some money *grin*), a mapper for the original quake version of team fortress (uncredited darnit! all of us got gypped by the valve team)a contrinuting member of the wodmod team for "Vampire, the masquerade: Redemption", a core mapper/storywriter for the alien TC quake mod before we got CDL'ed by paramount, and I have written two major modules for GURPS, one of which wasx published by SJ, and the other of which is available as a free download.... once again, I am not allowed to tell you what they are because that would be advertising as well as giving my real name. I have Played PVP and endgame content in far more games than I can count, and I am older and more misanthropic than most other people on this board. My perspective is a game balance perspective, based on what I have seen and not seen, and the fact that even most of the 'experts' in this game are still more-or-less flailing in the dark. There is still content you have not unlocked, builds you have not experimented with, team formulations you have not tried, tactics you have not approached, and secrets you have not found. You have been playing this game for three to five months, and your attempt to even conceive of a way on which to invalidate the opinions of others based on their... 'experience', is absolutely laughable. Try it again in ten years.

in wow they did not work very well. in city of heroes generalists worked very well indeed. SWtor is NOT wow. it is NOT open world content, and there are very few things about it that even vaguely resemble WoW other than gear-driven enhancement. In point of fact, it's mission system and personal character story and friendliness to casual gamers resembles champions online FAR more than it does wow. generalists failed in wow because the content was NOT designed to be accessible to single players, and pvp is, in fact, an area where generalists tend to shine. so that's two of the three tiers holding the game up.

'If you disagree you don't know what you are talking about' yes, I agree with you that your disagreement means you don't have a clue what you are talking about... so, if you are so obviously ignorant, why do you bother posting?

Are you?

I didn't say a blanket switch. reading comprehension ftw. here, let me repeat that again: restating my words incorrectly is not an 'I win' toggle.

so who do you want to be 'worst at their role'? someone has to be. every see a sent trying to tank? It's not impossible, just takes a lot more challenge, and sents are the 'worst at the role' among classes that carry shields (tankers). I am comfortable with being the worst healer. why? because I can two-shot a ton of stuff with ease, and I am the only healer that can stealth content. Which makes me the 'best' healer at stealthing content. I am comfortable with not having the best 'sustained DPS', why? because I have an incredible amount of 'burst DPS' and crowd control. so even when I cannot stealth content, I can tear it to shreds, stealth to someplace safe, and then take the downtime I need to get back into burst mode. I am comfortable with not having the best aoe. why? because I can 'burst' down those 3 mobs, one at a time, and take out the strong in half the time it takes the aoe specialist to mow them down with aoe's and final dps single target. I am comfortable with not being able to tank in pvp. why? because I can take out the enemy group's healer and make a good inroads into the health bars of their DPS or tank BEFORE they even realize I am there... and the same cannot be done to me, because when I am not healing I am stealthed. I am comfortable with not having the highest sustained DPS. why? because few are better at one-shotting boss trash calls, and my sustained DPS is enough to get the job done, and if the healer is getting overwhelmed, I can contribute. In short, I think scoundrels and Ops are 'the best' at being generalists and emergency helpers.

heh, not to mention Aric Jorgan's funny head shape.

You mean like the way any dissenting opinion in this thread is mod-hammered into oblivion? Believe me, Bioware is extremely comfortable with censorship. a few of us simply want it to work in our favor, this time. And, if you haven't noticed, many of us want ALL romantic interactions to be capable of being toggled. most of them absolutely suck, and are horribly unrealistic and immersion-breaking. Tharan is one of the worst offenders, no matter WHAT you have said, or how many times you tell him to get lost, he still acts like he slept with your character... I want THAT crap turned off, and I don't want 'gay versions' of that behavior in my game. The people who want a toggle want it for a very good reason... so we are not forced to deal with another 'Tharan Romance'. and believe me, the straight version offends many of us just as much. TOGGLE!

Because legacy names are the only way to keep track of trolls and ninjas in-game, and changing legacy names would make people immune to the social consequences of their misbehavior, perhaps?

actually, I have a reason to hate the nar shadda datacron. it requires a series of barely-possible leaps which, when you add in packet loss and lag, are unbelievably challenging to people with crappy ISP's. It took me nearly 6 hours of repeated attempts to finally not find myself back on the ground fighting gang members every time I leaped.

I think you should be glad you are not getting any attention. look at what happened when Ops/scoundrels got too much attention? There are several things that troopers can do that can be considered 'overpowered', and I really think you would prefer not to call attention to them for as long as possible.

This is too hot of a topic. You need to close it until such time as same gender content is added to the game. right now, the discussion of whether same gender flirt prompts should even exist precludes the discussion of whether or not certain existing NPC's shall have them, especially since we do not even know if it will be world, raid, flashpoint, or other such content.

Seriously, a few pvp'ers HATE that huttball seems to be the only thing anyone wants to play. On the other hand, if that's what people want to play, it would be incredibly stupid to remove it.

I thought that BW already mentioned someplace that they were implementing the option in an upcoming patch.

I smoke. My character would smoke too. does that mean that smoking should be included in the game? if it were, do you think that having a 'toggle' that could take out the NPC smoking graphics and options that involve lighting up a cigarette would be inappropriate because some parents don't want their kids seeing smokers as role models? Heck no. The only reason it's even an issue is because we are threatening to point out that their sacred cow is made out of paper mache.

I actually think that the level of 'romance depth' in the storyline actively inhibits roleplaying. It's basically sort of like... what's the point of even having this as an MMO? It's basically mass effect with 'coop play' and 'pvp' as added features. stuff that, realistically, should have been added to mass effect. It really feels like it's just EA trying to find a way to make gamers pay them monthly for KOTOR 3. I mean, up until now, what have been the features of MMO's? open world play?-nope. choosing how you level, whether quests or grinding?- nope. interactive stories with other players?- nope. There's a storyline. veer from it at your peril. a player-based economy?- HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! coop?- well, in many cases your companion fits the bill better than another player would. the ability to personalize the world in some way?-nope the ability to influence the universe storyline?-Not a chance. Err...is anyone else starting to feel like, the minute they play to level 50 through the 8 storylines, they are never coming back?

I support this.

I think you would be better served by posting this thread over in 'roles'. it is not vanguard that has the tanking problem, it is tanking in general that has some problems, namely too little intuitivity.

You know, I could really get behind this. if people want to roleplay 'relationships' with PC's, more power to them... but the NPC relationship thing strongly resembles self-activity without the payoff.

hehehe. Best point of all.