Thank you for your work in doing this. I'm sure the community appreciates it (I know I do). I have a few questions: 1) This may be a noobish question but how can we take the rotations you listed and turn them into a numbered list e.g., Step 1: Weaken Mind, Step 2: Force in Balance, Step 3: Telekinetic Throw, etc? When I read the balance rotation code it seems like it's asking for two shots of force potency but with such a large cooldown that simply cannot be part of any standard rotation, long-one yes, but not your typical 30s rotation. 2) You created these profiles for raids which is nice because we do those twice a week. However, we also do PVP. Since I have the same balance spec as your profile would it be best, for example, to convert the below into percentages and try to match those percentages with WH gear or is PVP a different ballgame? I have a full set of both WH Force Masters and Force Mystics gear as well as some Stalker WH pieces too and I'm always messing around with combinations. Stats: 2129 Willpower, 992 power, 164 crit, 342 alacrity, 228 surge Thanks

I heal exclusively in ranked and in many premades but DPS in regular WZs. You want to know why I don't heal when I pug it (or at least rarely do)? Because: 1) What tanks there are SO often guard their friends who are sometimes OTHER tanks or heavy-armored players. There have been a ridiculous number of times where I didn't receive guard when I asked for it. 2) When guard is actually placed on me the tank so often leaves my sight at which point I am often rooted, stunned, and incinerated by 4 Marauders. 3) The average pug: "Oh, the healer's taking all the aggro. Glad it's not me" and then proceeds to tab to the next target without protecting their healers. 4) Many people who play DPS classes: Sentinels, Gunslingers, etc. just don't put out decent numbers (at least on my server). I am top DPS on my Sage at least 95% of the time (I seriously am). I would consider healing more if I saw better DPS but what's the point of healing 4 Sentinels who can barely break 100k when I can pump out 400-650k on a regular basis? In short, I heal when I'm with my guild and am protected properly. Since that doesn't happen too often in regular warzones I go DPS.

I agree with this 100% but would not recommend more than 1 DPS Sage in your rated team and the one you bring should be quite good and do the things above at a minimum. I've played a lot of ranked games across two servers as a healer (at least 150 by now). We have defeated every team that had two or more Sorcs or Sages but have lost a few to those that had ONE good DPS Sorc or Sage. It was just too easy for our Sentinels and Vanguards to smash through the Sorcs and Sages when there were multiple ones, even if they did good DPS and were known for it. To take an example, I helped our C Team last night gear up in rated. 5 of these players aren't even full BM yet and we still defeated a team of 7 full-WH--augmented-geared inquisitors and 1 Operative healer. It was just a bad idea.

You're preaching to the choir here. We know this very well hence our second disclaimer: "Disclaimer 2: This comparison is only for damage. Many, many, many other things contribute to class balance and victory in warzones." In fact our teams try to LIMIT DPS. We talk about it all the time. We focus fire for burst and do everything we can to end a match early and not take unnecessary risks. I've been reading about RWZs with Pyros doing 600k+ and healers over 800k. We do everything we can to make sure those matches DON'T happen. See disclaimer 2 above and please read entire posts before making your own. Our point is to provide another perspective to the MANY threads about the supposedly OPd Marauder and Pyro damage and that maybe people should examine what's really happening in the matches they are in.

You have some very valid points. 1) Your most important point is something everyone needs to remember: this is indeed OUR set of data and is NOT representative of the SWTOR population. We, for example, believe we hit more Maras and PTs than others typically do (especially after talking with other guilds). Again, what really surprised us was how Pyro and particularly Mara damage is NOT that much higher than other classes. Sages/Sorcs are only 7k lower than Maras, the discussion over AOE damage aside. Please understand that my main is a Sage. I was honestly shocked at our data. I was certain Mara damage was going to be like 100k more on average. The reality is that the classes are fairly clumped and that's a major takeaway for us. The more data we add the clearer this will be. 2) We know of 4 other guilds who collect data like this, in fact that's where we got the idea from. We are hoping for others to post their numbers as well. And, if you start doing this remember that you will either need to record each match or right after each match write down who was who because the victory/defeat screen won't, for example, tell you if a player was a Vanguard or Commando. 3) Our data will be ongoing. We have this in Google Docs and a few of us contribute to the spreadsheet after we're done with rateds for the day. We will make an update about every month or so on the forums. In any case, based on suggestions we will now be tracking a few more things: a) map composition (we may go back and add this as it's easy to do. stupid omission on my part) b) top players so we can compare the same sample numbers (we may also go back and add this) c) unique players (we may go back and add this as well) We also tracked this but didn't add it to our spreadsheets but will from now on. And, yes, there was definitely times we went up against the same teams. For example, my rated team hit the same guild 6 times but it seemed like they were messing with their composition each time (just as we often were). But most rated teams hit other rated teams a fair amount; it's kind of what makes it fun.

More data from the 124 ranked WZs. These are all averages and only for DPS players. CLASS/ Kills/ Deaths/ Kills per Life/ Objectives PowerTech/Vanguard 34 7 4.86 5100 Marauders/Sentinels 27 6 4.50 6300 Snipers/Gunslingers 39 6 6.50 8500 Jugg/Guardian 28 5 5.60 9075 Sorc/Sage 33 10 3.30 7600 Shadow/Assassin 27 6 4.50 9150 Operative/Scoundrel 31 7 4.43 8950 Merc/Commando 24 8 3.00 7450 Top Kills Class: Snipers/Gunslingers (actually healers were the top but that's another story) Class that Dies the Most: Sorc/Sage Top Kills per Life Class: Snipers/Gunslingers (again, AOE) Top Objectives Class: Jugg/Guardian Biggest hit recorded in the 124 rated warzones: 8328 from a PowerTech Pyro. Another one real close: 8317 from a gunslinger. Same disclaimers as above apply.

These numbers are DPS players only. Tank numbers were not posted. It's pretty easy to tell who the tanks were based on protection stats and because we recorded each match. Here are the healing numbers: Class # Median HLG Average HLG Sorc/Sage 272 377k 401k Op/Scoundrel 113 341k 374k Merc/Commando 98 306k 363k We've encountered less Operative healers than we thought we would. Well, part of the reason we are doing this is to see if others encounter as many Maras/Sentinels and PowerTech/Vanguards as we do.

I agree. We have this other information and will post it soon. We simply did not want to crit with a wall of text. Long posts, which this already was, tend to go unread.

My guildies and I have played a combined total of 124 ranked warzone matches across two servers from our three ranked teams. We record each match and take screenshots of each victory/defeat screen. We were curious as to which classes were performing the best so far and so divided up the responsibilities and quickly created the following comparison. We were absolutely convinced before doing this that PowerTechs/Vanguards and Marauders/Sentinels would come out far ahead of all other classes in terms of damage but SURPRISINGLY our data DID NOT confirm this. The most useful measure here is the median as exceptional players in rated tend to skew averages for each class (in fact they skewed every average below). Class # Median DMG Average DMG PowerTech/Vanguard 372 322k 364k Marauders/Sentinels 402 295k 339k Snipers/Gunslingers 21 295k 341k Sorc/Sage 50 288k 322k Jugg/Guardian 42 286k 323k Assassin/Shadow 83 277k 297k Operative/Scoundrel 22 254k 265k Merc/Commando 20 238k 242k BIGGEST CONCLUSION: Because we see so many Marauders/Sentinels and PowerTech/Vanguards it SEEMS like they are always topping the charts and are doing tons more damage than other classes. The fact of the matter is that in at least the matches we have been a part of most of the classes are not that far apart in turns of damage dealt (sorry mercenaries and commandos). Indeed: 1) The difference between Assassin/Shadow (6th highest DPS) and Marauders/Sentinels (2nd highest DPS) is only 18k. 2) The only class that is somewhat ahead of the rest is PowerTech/Vanguard. Disclaimer 1: We are not idiots. We are well aware that the above table does not at all represent the entire SWTOR population in ranked WZs. We just thought this table would provide some useful information. If anything it convinced us that PTs and Maras are not nearly as far ahead as we thought (some in our guild still don't believe this though). Disclaimer 2: This comparison is only for damage. Many, many, many other things contribute to class balance and victory in warzones.

I have actually found slightly more survivability when I DPS on my Sage in rated but it takes my teammates doing their jobs correctly (whole different story when I heal though). One thing I've learned is that because I go in with my guildies I don't have to worry as much about staying close enough to stop a cap, a bomb, etc. My teams' melee and tanks will do this. As such, I can truly stay at 30m, which is often behind our melee and/or tanks in a nice spot close to an obstacle or pillar. When Marauders and Juggs jump to me I lead them even further away from objectives and, most importantly, their healers. Because these Maras/Juggs are usually outside of their healers' heal range, and I am not, I can usually kill these guys, especially when I receive ranged DPS help. I used this strategy 3 times today in fact in rated CW and Novare, two of which allowed us to cap mid and ultimately win. In other words, use the attraction Marauders and DPS Juggs have for Sages to your team's advantage. it's not always fun being bait, but it is surprising how many Warriors take it.

What do you mean you "...would have expected more displeasure from not only the PvP community in general, but from healers in particular?" Where on earth have you been? There have been SO many posts and comments about this topic that there is very little more to say about this. Basically anytime you see a post about healing you will find those arguing that operative/scoundrels are op'd and those arguing that sorcs/sages can keep up or are better.

I think that it's not the Marauder class per se but how many of them there are. The Empire, it seems, is like 99% Marauders and Pyros now, lol. As such, we see all the complaints about these two classes because there's so many of them and that's what people face the most. On my server because we face so many Marauders and Pyros my second rated team now roles with 3 excellent gunslingers and 1 DPS Scoundrel. It has really proved to be an excellent counter. Often the Marauders are dead before they can even leap to me (a Sage healer). I'm really surprised I don't see more anti-Marauder classes on the servers I play on or discussions about these.

Ha ha this is what everyone, including us, said before facing these guys. Of course we can beat 4 silly Sages. Our Sentinels eat Sorcs/Sages for lunch! We even threw down a party bomb when we knew we were facing them. Famous. last. words. We had a yell and blame fest after our loss but we were beaten fairly. This team is undefeated at 28-0 and they have screenshots to prove it. Furthermore, we're not noobs. Of course we use target of target and dispel. And, the server is Drooga's and it's full with a 15 minute wait every night and it's very competitive. We also play on the Fatman and have found ranked on Drooga's to not be as competitive as it is on the Fatman but surprisingly close. In any case, these 4 Sages each do 350-400k or more, even under pressure. My point is: just as top companies understand that it's their talent that makes them successful (and they do, as they pay huge sums to head hunters for top quality employees), the same concept works here: the best players will be just as, or more important, than composition.

Hmmm...this would make the group more DPS and the tanks unable to truly defend. These kinds of groups have not fared well on my server. Also, people need to stop talking about composition by itself. Good players + Composition = success. You can have an ideal composition but bad players and, of course, just suck. For example, there is a Pub guild on my server that is still undefeated after three days that takes in four DPS Sages. In theory this should not work but they have beaten all of the best teams (including my guild last night=our first loss).

This. I remember posting on the forums this exact same thing right before the healing nerf. Skilled players could always take me and other healers down. Also, last night in rated we went up against five OK to not-so-good teams and two really good teams. Not surprisingly, I was able to heal for an average of 552k in the five easy victories and only 317k in the two tough victories (and I was top Sorc/Sage heals in all matches). Good teams simply do not let a Sorc/Sage do much healing. Our Sentinels shut down the server's best Sorc healer over and over in one of the tough matches (this guy has posted over 1 million in heals 3 times). Simply put, if your Sorc/Sage is posting awesome healing numbers in rated you haven't gone up against good competition because they don't let much healing happen.

That's unfortunate and should not have happened. if capped you might have won. I wonder if Bioware can at least remove your loss from your record (they won't give you a win though) because dots were indeed supposed to not break capping.

This. I'm totally fine when I see people in recruit gear as you're right: people have to start somewhere. It's the PVE gear the OP and many of us have a problem with. I try to get into WZs fast so I can inspect my teammates' gear. If I see them in PVE gear I whisper them and ask them to please leave the WZ, purchase recruit gear, and that we'd be glad to see them in a WZ again when they have done that. A surprising number of people have responded well to this because I don't call them out in group chat and embarrass them.

Well, we went up against a team of 7 Pyros and 1 Operative healer. 4 of these Pyros routinely post 400k+ numbers. As such, I really think they thought that their super DPS would win the day like some sort of blitzkrieg (or they were experimenting with composition) but we shut them down pretty easy. All I saw was a stream of red speeders flying above my head in Civil War.

Composition is only one part of it. WHO the players are is just as important. When you combine these two aspects you are more successful. One guild on my server, for example, brought in 4 DPS Sages and went undefeated at 17-0. Even now I don't know how they did it given the plethora of good Marauders and Pyros they faced but this guild has a screenshot of their 17 wins and 0 losses and people were all talking about it on the server. All I know is that the 4 DPS Sages they brought in all routinely post 400k damage numbers but still, in theory, that shouldn't have worked but because it did it goes to show how important player skill is. In any case, here is what we used (we were also undefeated last night but only played 4 matches late at night where the competition wasn't too bad): 1 Guardian tank 1 Shadow tank 1 Godlike Gunslinger (each match he posted 450k or more; poor Sorcs did nothing but die to this guy) 1 Amazing DPS Scoundrel (each match he posted 300k or more and mostly on healers) 2 Vanguard DPS (Pyro) (their DPS wasn't as high as we would've liked) 1 Scoundrel healer 1 Sage healer (me, who was there to basically absorb enemy fire and lure the enemy from objectives)

I assume you're talking about rated games. People generally don't want to voluntarily share information about their losses. That said, I know of two guilds who lost every rated match yesterday. At least they were honest about it but, of course, they didn't go advertising this.

Lol. This is just so unrealistic against the best teams. In ranked yesterday there were 5 times in which ALL of my heals were unusable because they had been interrupted. The new job of a healer, it seems, is to distract and lure away. Yes, it worked and we won all of our ranked matches but it WASN'T fun for me to die as much as I did. My team sure had a blast given free reign while I was a pin cushion. This game is rapidly becoming "Where's the healer?"

Simply awesome. Would you mind sharing in more detail how exactly you got such a high number? That blows away my record of 633k. Nice job. Also, how do you avoid enemies? My Sage plays on an Imperial-dominated server. Despite the server being full or very heavy every evening there are few Pubs who put out impressive DPS (tons on the Imp side though). I am, sadly, one of the few who consistently post 400k+ numbers (and does objectives at the same time). As such, I have become a major target. I would love to be sneaky and not be seen but I am sought out so much that I have no choice but to use it as a strategy to draw enemies away from objectives. You only died once; how on earth did you achieve such a feat? I was in a Voidstar match last night where 4 Marauders were assigned to destroy me. I died a stunning 25 times and I'm in full WH-augmented gear (ironically we won b/c they were so focused on destroying me).

OP, the issue you are experiencing is mostly GEAR and has nothing to do with Bioware. Two of my toons are on your server: one Imperial operative and one Jedi Sage. The Republic does lose more than the Empire there but it's mostly an issue of gear. A significant portion of the Imps I queue with have at least some war hero pieces whereas only a small portion of the Pubs I queue with have the same, let alone a complete BattleMaster set. I've played at least a hundred games on both sides on Drooga's and there's no doubt that the gear difference is sizable. Yes, I get into some Imperial groups composed of poorly geared people but they are less frequent than when I get into Republic groups where it's the norm. Don't worry though. The exact same thing happened on my last server. The Imperial side PVP'd all the time thus giving them a huge lead in gear. The Pubs, who generally did less PVP, slowly geared up and things began equalizing, if not turning to the Republic's favor.

I can usually do well in 1 v 1 situations on my Sage if I start the confrontation (and that's usually a really important part--it's also helpful to start it when their back is to you). The key to any 1 v 1 is staying the heck away (the most important part). When I see Sages and Sorcs trying to engage a Marauder or Pyro at short distance I shake my head (please understand that I used to do this too! We are all still learning). To take an example, I received an assassin medal off my server's best Marauder last night (a guy who usually does 500k or more in most of his matches). To start, I placed my three dots on him in rapid succession followed by Force in Balance. Because I was far from him he wasted his leap on me. I stunned him and used sprint. He used his stun breaker (which is what I was hoping for so that I could later use Force Lift). I then hit him with Force Slow, popped my relics, an adrenal and force potency and went to town on him with TK Throw. When he got to me I used Sever Force to root him for a short duration and reapplied the other two dots while moving away from him. I then used TK Throw more. When my health was low (he did a number of powerful attacks on me) I used my instant Force Lift and healed myself. After that he used his no damage thing. I then used Force Push so that he couldn't hit me when this was activated. After that he went invis. I hit FIB immediately to find him and then finished him off with an instant Disturbance. The funny thing was that he was the only one guarding right in CW and was so confident that he'd finish me off that he never called out for help. I capped right and we won (barely). The point is: we have an arsenal of tools to use. Use them and never fight close to your enemy.

Although i play a Sage and do lots of damage, I agree with this. Well-played and well-geared Pyros and Vanguards are, IMO, unmatchable in DPS by the same of other classes on a regular basis. What other class do you see post 600K+ by multiple players on a routine basis (I'm not talking about those unending heal-fest matches either)? Yes, there are exceptional players in every class but Pyros and Vanguards really seem to have the edge. People have made posts about this (By the way I'm not calling for a nerf, it's pretty easy for me to take down Pyros: ranged, ranged, ranged; save sprint and stun for after they pull me, etc.). At least on my PVE server these two classes are fast becoming the FOTM. Lots of players abandoned their DPS Sorcs for Marauders and are now abandoning these for Pyros because they saw a Pyro or two post close to or above 1 million in damage in a match. Just today, for example, I went up against a team in lowbie PVP that was composed entirely of Pyros. The next match contained 6 Pyros, and so on.