That is understandable, but I'm full of 75s and 72s... so there is no need for me to wait around for a tank who has less health than I do. That is the point of my posts

I feel like those complaining are the ones who actively run HM FPs because they still need the gear. I don't recall being in HM FPs for gear after the first week 55 was accessible. I agree alts do exist, but not to this extent. Those complaining that some geared DPS is pulling everything and doing all the work doesn't make sense. In what world do people enjoy things harder when there is an easier way?

Because he is not one shotting you. As others have indicated, you are clearly misunderstanding the situation and are quick to claim that all of that damage is instantaneous. The damage is inevitable but healers (and you) have to be prepared for it. If you use defensives and bubble, healers NEED to be ready to toss a heal on you as soon as he lands or else you *will* die. Nothing has changed. If you just take it to the face without a bubble, you will die. If your healers don't think they have to heal you, you will die. Its not broken as we downed it earlier in the week as well as many others, both in 8 and 16. There has been no patch to download so the boss can't suddenly be 'broken'. I know for our starting attempts, if I did not have a bubble and I was not topped off... I would definitely die. This week we didn't lose a single person to it because we understood the mechanics.

Signed.

While its one thing if it causes wipes, but if its more *effective* then thats not ruining the experience. Its a waste if it slows down everything because chances are- that tank can't hold aggro against me. That means I have to literally hold off on attacking just for him to build up some thread so I can cast a few abilities and kill it. Most people I'm stuck with in FPs are vastly undergeared and underskilled. Sometimes I get some pretty awesome people but thats 1/20. So why should I have to try to play worse just so they can "learn to tank" at my expense? Its a two way street. They can learn to tank with me doing what I normally do. If they can pull things before me and hold aggro over me- then they are learning.

Flashpoints are not for you to learn to take off your training wheels so you can get into Operations. I quickly got into FPs for gear and quickly got out of it so I can spend my time doing productive things. You have 55 levels to learn your class. If you're still expecting people to bare with you while you still learn, then that is selfish. Learn on your own time using plenty of sources that are out there. Not trying to be rude, but to expect others players to dumb down their experience just to keep the learning curve on par with yours is extremely selfish.

Why? Why is it necessary to do things the hard way all the time. I thought casuals liked short cuts and free loot.

When (and if) I run a flashpoint, I will run ahead and I will pull things. Why? Because I tend to have more health than the current tank as a DPS. I kill things fast enough that tanking is not necessary. I typically run with a healer from my guild that is capable of 2manning it. Now, why would I sit around and wait for a tank to take his time and pull everything, when I could just do it for him and finish the place in a fraction of the time?

I would NOT take most websites seriously when it comes to written documentation (or video) regarding strategies in Hardmode and beyond. Most of the time, they get key parts of the fight completely wrong- or they do the fight once and write out what they record as if everything is happening exactly for the right reason (such as roar after a knock up). The only way to completely understand a fight now is to do it yourself and create a working strategy based on the composition and players involved. Thrasher was never buggy for us, and was extremely simple in Hardmode. Unless some patch made him super buggy, I believe its all working as intended (except for the minor LoS issue). However, that LoS issue is fine since the people killing those adds are supposed to utilize the knockup and there up there to begin with. Edit: A lot of the top guilds don't necessarily write out guides for the content they clear through. I know our strats differ from others top guilds on a per boss basis, but we all don't go around writing up how we executed a fight. From my point of view, progression is about the journey- not the end. Why would I want to ruin that journey for you? Again, most websites that post a lot of strategies about content in SWTOR will be wrong about a lot of the mechanics. Just like websites that dedicate themselves to giving end game advice regarding classes. People run to Noxxic which I find extremely outdated and wrong.

This sounds about as casual as you can get. PvE is about the progression. What progression is there if everyone is bolstered up to the top? You know how easy it would be to just ignore PvE gear drops and just farm PvP gear? If all I focused on was PvP, getting full conqueror is not nearly as time consuming as trying to get full BiS. In a 16man raid team, I am still not BiS from the PREVIOUS tier, let alone this new tier. We have an entirely new operation coming out tomorrow, and what do I have so far from this tier? Non-optimized bracers. That is it. How long have I been raiding this tier? Weeks and weeks. If I spent all that time PvPing, I could have a lot more upgrades that I could just cheese with if a bolster system did exist in PvE. It would eliminate the grind and progression that makes PvE what it is.

Same here. Its perfectly logical to be against it for various reasons. The main one being... with Biowares track record, we really don't know which bosses will be freebies and which bosses won't. Lets say Dashroode is a complete nightmare but the 2nd and 3rd bosses are a joke. Some guild QQs and claims Dashroode is impossible and skips it, thus getting the 2nd and 3rd boss killed almost instantly. Now they have compiled points that other guilds won't be getting for some time as they will be working on Dashroode. In order to keep up, they will be almost forced to skip it just to get the points they are missing out on. The linear clear bonus in the 8man thread is hardly a bonus. The example I just listed would make the linear clear bonus almost non-existent. The Linear Clear Bonus is just a way for the guilds, who actually view progression as progression, a way to keep up. That should NOT be the way it works. The Linear Clear Bonus should be an incentive to keep all guilds going in order. My vote is for 16man guilds to keep clearing linearly. Honestly? All the 16man guilds will probably do it anyways as we are all pretty tight knit when it comes to rules and competition. We all seem to be on pretty good terms so I'm sure the consensus will be for linear clears only.

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Not this again... Please ignore this guy. I did a warzone in PvE gear and suddenly he has resorted to trolling the entirety of my guild in General Chat by putting words in my mouth. Clearly we're #1 in the world for "everything ever" Yeah, that makes quite a bit of sense. Carry on kid. (If this adds to it- this child is in a guild notorious for heavy trolling. <Genocide>. It has about 10 members)

Cheese, I think the argument in general is that this is just further proof that they cater to the minority who complain. So if content is difficult in the future, we can expect Bioware to nerf it after 1 or 2 guilds complain about it? I don't like the idea of that. It shows Bioware has no resolve in standing firm and telling the guilds to deal with it or get better.

I wish that were the case for us :/ I'm 2900ish during the first and partly through the 2nd phase as highest DPS...

Updated: Kephess down!

I linked this in another thread... but WoW content actually provides some bosses that barely anyone ever sees. Less than 1.5% of all raiding guilds have cleared the hardest content in WoW. You can check out WoW Progress and see the percentages for every raid encounter. Just because there is better gear doesn't mean that YOU should have it. If you don't want to put forth the effort to obtain it, then you shouldn't have access to it. Its fair. When the thread title says "Catering to the casual", handing you gear you don't deserve pretty much defines that. Ontop of that, they allow you to access the old BiS gear by doing the easiest mode of new content. It still keeps you up to the competitive level, but requires the extra effort to get the new stuff. You can do the new content with the gear the easier content gives you- if you're not willing to then its not right to devalue our gear just because of it. Most MMOs are about being better than the next guy. All of us want to stand out.

What? Just because YOU didn't do content that has been out for almost a year doesn't mean that majority of players haven't. If anyone has done any sort of raiding, they have gone through TFB. Most of end game consists of Raiding and PvP. Leveling and questing only lasts so much. I know quite a few people with every class to 50 or 55.

So... 8man was nerfed and 16man pretty much stays the same. Nice. The only issue people had was DPS requirements. Now that the requirements are a crap shoot, 16man has been majorly focused on mechanics. Guilds weren't struggling because of DPS but more so the heavy emphasis on mechanics in 16. 16 was definitely not a nerf unless there were guilds dying to enrage. Yeah, a few great attempts early on were to enrage because most groups weren't minmaxing their movements and group precision, but after doing so the 30sec timer added on to 16 doesn't matter. Regardless, it is still Bioware catering to the complainers. The fight was not impossible and its supposed to be a part of the hardest operation in current content. I understand nerfing something that is completely gamebreaking (H Vizier in HoF?), but nerfing something that many guilds were downing!? Its principle at this point. Is this what we have to expect? They should just tell us tough luck since it is entirely possible and not as crazy as some people were making it out to be. We have what, a dozen total guilds who have cleared it now? Out of like 24 registered guilds? So out of the progression guilds, nearly half (if not half already) have downed it. Sounds like it should be nerfed to me. Just because a guild calls themselves a progression guild doesn't mean they are capable of downing content.

Not to be the debbie downer here, but this is coming from the same guild that claimed a fight was impossible while half of the 8man progression guilds went and killed it A lot of 16man guilds went 8man because its just easier to manage, and face it, most of the time the fights are a lot easier. NiM EC was a clear example. NiM TFB is yet another example. While guilds 1-2 shot most bosses (except for DG), 16 is still stuck doing 50+ attempts on every boss after DG. Okay, OP9 was about 15-20 attempts for most guilds, but regardless, 16 is once again harder. HM SV shouldn't even be in the discussion as the entire instance itself was a joke. We had an 8man alt team destroy 8man, and our main 16 destroy 16man. Its not about which was hardest, its more like which was easiest because both were really easy. Again, most 16man guilds just can't field the players in order to progress through content. Recruitment is hard since most good players are guilded- and those interested in joining are guildless for a reason. Even the good players need to get geared up which takes time. 8man is just less stressful to organize. We would probably do 8man for that very reason but it just feels like a glorified flashpoint for us.

Because the two are probably directly related in the code. I find it odd that a lot of fights that were 'fixed' are now bugged again in Nightmare. Its as if they copy and pasted the code and then scaled it haha.

No. What we're saying is that it requires proper execution to get the fight down, and once you have everything fine tuned it will drop. All of the wipes lead to vast improvements. Its not like guilds who have cleared it did the same strat over and over until it died... every last one of them would make changes almost every good attempt to make up for some things that may have happened. That is progression raiding. It took over 100 attempts to fine tune the strat that works for us, resulting in a kill. That is why I have no doubt that we and other guilds will be able to kill it easier now because we've all had plenty of practice and experience executing the encounter. By no means does it mean that its easy if it took every one of us well over 100 attempts to down it.

I'm actually pretty sure that my guild will be able to take out DG in maybe ~10 attempts at the most. Once we figured out and got our strat down, it barely took any effort to take it out.

a) Definitely not overtuned. It was fun and challenging, and the majority of the true progression guilds have killed it. b) Everything may be super under-tuned in 8man, since guilds were 2-3 shotting everything, but at least in 16man that is not the case. DG may be a lot harder than OPIX and Kephess, but they are both still challenging fights. No 16man guild has downed Kephess yet and that isn't because "we're bad", its because in 16man its actually a challenging fight.

Updated: Operator IX downed!