Not to get off track, but 8man DEFINITELY has the more strict DPS mechanic, but healing in 16man is also a *****. Granted in 8, you can't run double sorc or whatever you like and actually need an Operative as a secondary :/ 16 is more challenging mechanic wise (as you can see how the room filled up with red circles, and spreading 12m from each other or someone was one shot, which the room barely gave us the capability- which would mean a wipe if people ran too far from the boss since its a dps loss). Also, quite a few 8man guilds blasted through the rest of the fights... where as Operator IX on 16 was pretty damn challenging. Too many things lead to being one shot- some bugs- but you literally couldn't make a mistake. Same seems to go for Kephess. Its a very *tight* enrage and raid damage is '***'. We had to do a tank swap since Kephess was literally destroying one tank. Anyways, hardly any 16man guilds are left which is sad :/ wtb more 16mans.

I think that makes the video lol.

Courtesy of Saros, he has brought the community a few 'Wipe it' videos that have become quite entertaining. A lot of viewers have actually requested that he made make more. Well what better boss other than NiM Tanks to make it of than NiM DG!? 110+ wipes later, we have a fantastically entertaining video. Folks, here you have it: Please enjoy. I know I'm finding this to be quite funny, even after enduring the pain.

Well, to be fair... its a lot easier to manage a raid team of 8 vs 16. Everyone has different schedules, and if 1 core raider out of 16 can't make it- then it feels like you have a huge chunk missing in the performance area.

Shadow tanks are actually one of the best (dps and defensive) tanks if played very optimally. You will see an average shadow dip majorly to the point of no return, and a great shadow hardly ever spiking while pulling some great numbers.

I somehow read this as "15man TFB clear." Man I am tired.

For now. That is something to strive for, not get because the content is easy. Also, the only other thing I picked out was that lag was a factor and its not fair to those that have it.

They've been doing it since HM TFB came out xD Though there were sometimes when our GM wouldn't say it. Also in Nightmare it seems they don't say "We are the Chosen!" all the time, but its generally just a guild thing we do. I do not remember if we had done it on the attempts before the kill or not.

It is nightmare. Things are supposed to be so fine-tuned it leaves little room for error. If you want to have room for error, either wait to do the content when you outgear it or do it on an easier setting. Just because the hardest setting is available doesn't mean everyone should be able to do it. Its the hardest for a reason. It exists solely for those who want the challenge of having to play near perfectly to overcome. I thoroughly enjoyed the NiM DG fight. Was it vastly overtuned? No. Not at all. We had to tweak our strategy often before finally figuring out something that worked. If you are running in there with people not playing to their potential and using a subpar strategy- you are going to be wrecked. Just switching healing assignments for us was the difference between 30% and 5%. Just a few adjustments and we had a near kill. Those saying that everyone will skip this boss just to get gear from the other bosses are the ones who haven't even downed it yet. I have faith that those of us who have killed it can actually go in the following week and get it in a few attempts. Just because you killed something once doesn't mean you automatically should one shot it the next week. Lastnight, on our 2nd, 3rd, and 4th attempt we had DG to a near kill every time. A few adjustments and boom... a kill. We just have to repeat that next week and the week after. Every week will become easier and easier as we get more and more used to the fight itself. This is what nightmare is supposed to be. It is a 5 boss Operation. I don't want to clear something on a Tuesday night and not have anything to do the rest of the week. That isn't raiding. That is just rolling a dice and hoping you get loot. If you're struggling, just skip it like others and get loot from the later bosses to help you progress on NiM DG. I promise you, the fight really isn't as hard as people are making it out to be. Yes, its challenging but once you are doing everything you're supposed to do, you succeed. (Imagine that...)

Updated! Nightmare Dread Guards downed- video added.

If they added mechanics like that, there would still be an 'enrage timer' that people would just slap a time on. Unless the mechanic was completely random and not on any sort of timer, you could pretty much estimate how much time it would take for a room to fill up (such as Putricide). That would be no different than how it is now. Right now we have a fixed time for a boss to one shot people. A room filling up would have a fixed time to one shot people.

Well, if enrage was removed... you can literally take your time throughout every fight and it would put no pressure on anyone to rush. It would make any content trivial... NiM Kephess? A joke. NiM Tanks? A joke. NiM anything? A joke. Edit: Mostly because resources are pretty much infinite if managed properly. We don't have to worry about running out of mana or anything.

The group that got it wasn't 100% optimal. That right there shows you don't need a crazy optimal group. Now bringing in a bunch of terrible performing specs, well, either respec or recruit people that are willing to. Its progression in the hardest content. Doing 'what you like' and ignoring what is best is not for the hardest content.

Well yeah, I can give you a totally bad scenario too. Just use nothing but merc healers and run with all jugs. That isn't anywhere near optimal or partially optimal. If you want to clear stuff with a less than average group, then by all means focus on Story Mode. Nightmare is for fine tuning everything. Running all Sorcs is no where near viable, etc. Thats a terrible example as to why content should be nerfed.

If you are excellent at your class- you can still push out the required DPS. We have a mix of DPS in our group and everyone performs at a high level. For 16man, its more about the mechanics and less about the enrage (for us). Red Circles go out way too often and too much for us. Within 30sec we have a room filled with red circles. Positioning of that is key. I know for 8man its the other way around, and honestly if the enrage were increased then 8man would be nerfed too harshly in my opinion.

I am in favor of adjustments to benefit those on high latency servers, since that is nothing to do on your end and is definitely at the fault of Biowares. However, adjusting the only boss in the instance to be easier when the instance takes no more than 8 attempts to clear would put the nail in the coffin for a lot of players that wish for harder content. DG is refreshing because it requires fine tuning everything. That IS progression. Tuning every aspect of your raid. If you get the kill, you will be a group of better players afterwards. You don't get better doing content that doesn't push you past your limit. I know I've personally became worse over the course of SWTOR because content is so mindnumbing easy. I went back to WoW and felt myself behind people I was generally always ahead of.

Its understandable that everything else is easy compared to the dread guards, but that doesn't mean DG should just be nerfed. If anything, the rest of the content should be buffed. Everything else was killed within 2-3 attempts, sometimes a one shot. Just because those are easy doesn't mean the entire place should be. I do understand that the skill cap of DG is out of place, but at least we get 1 boss that is challenging because we all know the rest are a joke and require little to none in terms of cooperation and adjusting. Having to do more DPS and healing isn't "adjusting".

Yeah, and? So you want to kill a fight with a FAR from optimal group? Its the hardest content. You don't take a bunch of terrible classes in the hardest content in other MMOs and expect to clear content. You bring what helps defeat the encounter. Its supposed to be the hardest. Bringing a ragtag group means you will wipe and most likely not have the kill. Again, if anyone wants to bring a less than optimal group and say "this is unfair- its impossible." Well, you're kind of doing that to yourself.

Accessibility is for Story Mode and Hard Mode to be honest. Nightmare, in design, was gated towards the elite. Content isn't supposed to be decimated within the first 48 hours of being released. Maybe in Story Mode, but with the absolute hardest content in the game being designed with a very select portion of the population- it should last. I think 150 attempts is perfectly reasonable for an encounter that should be a part of the hardest tier in the game. Afterall, there are only 5 bosses. Now, if there were 12 or 13 bosses then 150 attempts would be quite a bit as those attempts add up on a per boss basis and content would take forever to clear. However, we only have 5 bosses. If all of them required 100 or so attempts, then that would be true nightmare content. It would be 2-3 weeks before seeing a guild clear through it. That is how its supposed to be. Logging on first wouldn't really matter at this point, since it would only give you an edge of a few attempts. I personally don't want to see this content nerfed. Adding 1 minute to the enrage would make the fight laughable compared to its former self. Instead of 2 or 3 guilds getting it down, we'd have all the 8 mans just jumping ship and 5/5 clearing NiM content. Like I've said, its not catered towards "accessibility". That is what Story Mode and Hard Mode are for. This content is geared towards the elite... so the fights should match that. You can't say its for the best players and we 1 or 2 shot it. That doesn't mean we're awesome. It just means content is easy.

Circles won't deal damage to the adds. If you have terrible placement, they will spawn in them but aside from the circles hindering you, they won't do anything to the adds.

Glad that this gives hope to the remaining 8mans who have been attempting this, blindly thinking that its impossible yet still whacking away at it. Can't wait to see some more kill videos ahead!

This hahaha. Like seriously. The lasers. The lasers everywhere.

Much like the other guilds, Chosen is also posting up videos of our kills to come! Aside from our kills, we also run a live stream every Tuesday-Thursday, 8:00-12:00/1:00 EST. twitch.tv/forsedar TERROR FROM BEYOND Writhing Horror: Dread Guards: Operator IX: Kephess the Undying: Terror from Beyond: SCUM AND VILLAINY -Dash'roode: -Titan 6: -Thrasher -Operations Chief -Olok the Shadow -Cartel Warlords -Dread Master Styrek

A lot of people have been stating the same thing pretty frequently, which I do agree with to an extent: All bosses should be in-line with each other. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean DG should be nerfed. This is *Nightmare*. We have 3 difficulty settings. Since the launch of the game, all the top guilds who love progression have been disappointed with each and every patch. The only thing stopping a lot of progression was generally a single boss with terrible scaling. Here is the list of raiding that we all ended up complaining about on these very forums: Nightmare Eternity Vault: An absolute joke. The only problems were Pylons bugging out and causing a wipe or Soa platforms not respawning, which lead to another wipe. This instance was a joke and the only difficulties were the bugs it carried. Nightmare KP: No real challenges provided except for 16 Jarg and Sorno. Their railshot was one shot members. You had 0.5sec to cleanse the debuff off the target and hope the railshot doesn't go off. Guilds claimed it was impossible on 16 as well. We did it and then got our 2 HR title that same night. Again, no real challenge provided. Nightmare EC: Now, this was more towards the 8man guilds since they were the ones complaining about the easy difficulty. With multiple 2 hour clears the first week and a dozen following the next week- this was a great indication that the current content was a joke. However, for 16 is was extremely difficult due to overtuning (again). NiM 16 Tanks was, of course, deemed impossible. We (as well as other guilds) persevered despite it being wipe after wipe. ( 20min of us wiping. Attempts were about 10sec long in the video). We didn't give up and finally got it, despite DPS requirements being insane. We considered this to be what true nightmare difficulty should be. It was nerfed. Vorgath was a joke and Kephess was once again bugged. I guess I can put in the Hardmode variants that surfaced, but none of them are even remotely noteworthy. What is progression if a boss dies the same night you attempt them? Anyone remember H LK? H Rag? Those weren't killed over night. The World First H Rag kill was over 400 attempts. It was because it was challenging, not impossible. It required precision in terms of DPS, awareness and a lot of other factors. To walk in and do a few attempts on a boss and demand a nerf is maybe something for Hardmode content. Hardmode content is supposed to be accessible by a majority of high end guilds, but not all guilds. If you look at some casual guilds- they are still progressing through HM SV and they are *fine* with that. Nightmare content, as stated at release and up to now, is for those wanting to test themselves. Its not any sort of test to dedication or skill if you kill it in a handful of attempts. 14 attempts shouldn't kill 1 of the 5 bosses. Sure, if there were 13 bosses to go through, then I can understand a boss taking 14-20 attempts... but there are only 5. Its supposed to be content that lasts. If content lasts 3 days, then whats the point? We pay $15 a month to wait for new content to come out and kill immediately as it comes? That feels somewhat depressing in my mind. Its just the same gear grind... just with a different flavor. No true challenges. Nothing. Sure, a lot of guilds could just skip and go kill the remaining 3 bosses whom seem to be easy... but whats the fun there? Don't we all play this for enjoyment? I know I personally don't get enjoyment from killing a boss after 2 attempts. It feels lackluster. I feel skimped. If any of you are true progression raiders, you will understand how I feel. I crave for content to punch me back full force when I just tap at it. I want to be tested to my very limits and excel with what I am. Up until now, I feel my skills diminishing because there has been *nothing* to push me or any of you. We've all become used to this easy grind as if its just like waking up in the morning. That needs to change.

Maybe if you looked at the date. I wasn't even halfway in BiS at the time. I was still majority previous tier. You realize you just pulled a log from months ago... how does this have any validity to it? Brb, grabbing your parse from last year- because you know its relevant. Good job in attempting to call me out buddy. Oh guess what- I matched your guilds DPS in previous tier gear. Nice. You showed me. (Not to mention we weren't even attempting to push every little DPS out. Me just going through the motions > Your guild. /applaud)