The Crystal Ball says get used to every class AoE heal having a cast time &/or a sizeable 8-12 sec CD...

You are correct, healing is *not* mitigation ... Many people often cross pollinate the terms avoidance , mitigation and self-healing which are entirely separate definitions.

You really need to read and understand the Tanking Primer thread & use the correct terminology when refering to defensive stats

Cup your palm near your ear. Be very quiet & if you listen closely enough you can almost hear the ghostly bemoaning of a particular tank class from 'that other game' that until recently were constantly in this position & echo this sentiment until your ears bleed.....quite rightly so as well

OP without having the luxury of dissecting a combat log a simplistic way to help you narrow down where the issue may lay is to answer these in your mind... Is there any pattern what so ever to this ? i.e run FP X 20 times & you know damn well exactly how the next pull needs to be handled , learnt from mistakes along the way , refined & evolved your strat. Buzz word " Lessons Learnt " you know which pulls...pre-pull you pop a CD or your Rakata AC stim before even enganging the pull as you know in 3.4ms you are about to be knocked back , CC'd , DW smashed off , Mob positioning ,Healer silenced etc etc or any other number of reasons that make a 'certain known' pull a huge PITA Is it completely random in nature ? i.e there is no semblence or even a base to start trying to figure out what is going on here. This is really the only point at which you need to go back & closely examine your setup , gear , 'rotation for a peer check Do you see this occurring in every FP or is it only under certain specific circumstances? i.e do you 'always' run with the same DPS & Healer or mostly PUGS. Personally whenever I have any issues it is those times I PUG. Different group dynamics , lack of appropriate CC , lack of effective means of communication mumble/vent etc , a healer with the IQ of a potato , trigger happy DPS or myself having spend extra time correcting other ppls errors to the detriment of my own buff/debuff micro management as a Sintank is *exactly* when I see & feel these "spikey issues arise". You seem genuine to work out what / where the issue may lay which is a good thing... so you may wish to consider editing the thread title to something a little less likely to attract the " OMGZ Sintanks are made of glass" band wagon crew . Hope you find a solution to your boggle & enjoy

Thats quite a substantial claim when the theorycrafters have already shown just how close the 3 tank classes actually are . Try reading the tank forum stickies if you need a citation. I also just wish people would actually try to understand how Shad/Sin armor actually works. Sin/Shadow in light armor after talent modifiers & dark charge have extremely comparible armor to a heavy armor wearing Jugg. If you personally don't like the 'idea' of a light armor wearing "dress" tank , that's fine. But people saying "how can they tank they only wear light armor' is simply incorrect. Also the heavy armor wearing classes do not have 8k more "base" HP. The only way someone had more HP than you is their own personal level / gear Endurnace + any modifers stims/buffs they had at the time. If it was 100% clear in your own mind that you required 'more healing' as you say it likely comes down to not maintaining optimal buff/debuffs on yourself & your target. Playing Sin / Shadow optimally as a tank is an exercise in micro management the likes of which easily discourages many people to rather just play one of the other two tank capable classes which tend to require alot less effort & thought for comparible results. You have 3 target debuffs & two self buffs to keep track of all simultaneously on short durration CD's & watching for another 2 separate effect procs...let any of these drop or miss a proc & your survivability &/or threat drop off very rapidly . Played poorly a Sin/Shadow is the least forgiving , any errors in play will show immediatly and evolve rapidly in spiralling effect difficult to recover from. Played optimally a Sin/Shadow tank can do some absolutely amazing things......unbreakable

you beat me of the bat I was still in process of editing quoting... haha Thanks for the reply maybe like you said Stasis / EoS > 50%... I tend to really hate talents that are just a flat out bolster like this though. " Here take this talent that adds zero flavor just so you can have comparible AC to other tank classes." I mean why even bother having a generic talent like this in the first place, things like this should be baked in to start with, not a damn talent you have to take just to be equal... I would much rather DC (ins Shad equivalent) just get adjusted >150% to offset this & have Stasis / EoS do something entirely different....pasively I 'was' really hot on the idea of energized shocks (ins shadow equivalent) , adding a charge back to DW (ins shadow eqv). But now I'm not so sure... shocks play such a large part in the rotation / threat that having your survibility also hinge around this is dangerous ground in my mind. Certainly sky not falling...... but ya know equality & all I think the issue is really going to show in full Rakata gear between classes its quite significant at that level AC differences Hmmm a lower AC tank , that relies on a applied bone shield *cough cough buff charge & slightly self heals was a massive failure & an entire Xpac before it got addressed by Devs in that 'other' game..... Lessons learnt anyone . Having one class be entirely passive & another reactive in their survivability will never balance out

OoO Ooooooooo dear.... in the original theorycrafting threads both here & in Assassin forums wasn't it thought at the time to be multiplicative ? Trying to find where I read it , Gankstah's thread maybe or infact I think it may have been you mentioned somewhere in another thread that if the talent was additive that would place shadow / sin alot further behind in the AC dept. ~10%'ish . Rather than the theorycrafted 3-4% behind a similiarly geared Jugg if it was multiplicative. I don't mind 3-4% between tanks on threat/mitigation/avoidance....but 10% on AC is quite significant surely ? Sure Shad/Sin have a slight advantage with internal etc...but that certainly isn't where the majority of the damage comes from . Are yourself & Gankstah happy with your AC numbers between the 3 tanks now you are certain the talent is additive , cos this concerns me tbh ? Edit: Found it (im useless at forum searching) Kitru: 'Secondly, I'm also going to state that I *assume* Stasis (tier 5 Kinetic Combat talent 20% armor buff) is *multiplicative* rather than additive (I haven't received confirmation about this from any source) simply because, if it's not, Shadows are going to have substantially worse armor ratings than either PTs or Juggs (using the Rakata raid gear, the totals would be ~770 armor from the "big" armor pieces with additive and ~855 with multiplicative; heavy armor pieces with the 60% armor buff for tanking stances get ~860 armor). If they *aren't* multiplicative, it's definitely a problem since Shadows are going to be getting damage reduction contributions from armor that are vastly sub-par to the other tanks. Stasis would need to get bumped up to a 50% armor buff if they are additive.' (If Stasis *isn't* multiplicative and is instead additive, damage reduction would go down by about ~10%, from 30% to ~27%, changing those damage taken numbers to 41.1% and 44%, making Shadows the outright *worst* tanks since they would only be *on-par* with Juggernauts, *at best*, and substantially worse than both at worst (taking 10% more damage than PTs and 7% more damage than Juggs in AoE situations, which isn't within the realm of gear optimization equivalence)) Still, all of this fits in line with the conclusions of the first analysis pairing; the only *new* conclusions that can be drawn are that, if Armor buffs really are additive and not multiplicative, Assassins/Shadows are pretty much hosed for mitigation purposes and Kinetic Ward/Dark Ward needs some tweaking to not be useless in mutli-target situations unless the devs *specifically* want Sins/Shads to be sub-par AoE tanks. "

Kitru have you been able to verify if the AC bonus from Stasis / Eye of the Storm is multiplicative or additive ?

Can you still be a sucessful tank & still be a clicker ? havn't you just answered your own question ? 12 years of play throughout various MMO's in various tanking classes in your mind you have been sucessful . After this duration you 'should' know what works for you & what dosn't , although it is clearly justification & rather vindication of your playsyle that you seek, when you already know full well the answer..... Clicking although viable, is not the most optimal method of character control & playstyle for anyone that is truely interested in getting the most out of their play. The 'politically' correct term for past few years has been co-tank I am afraid I cannot give you the answer you are fishing for to take back to your RL. Having to physically shift a mouse pointer over a button , look down, align , execute for each action whilst taking your concentration from field of view to an action bar will *always* be slower & a sub-optimal playstyle . Compared to keeping your eyes and full concentration directly on the action , allowing memory-muscle to act out via key-binds

This thread has been good value. Overall summary I got was Sin/Shadows can generate just as much AoE threat as Jugg/ , albeit less effeciently Vrs active time spent & that over a greater period of time Sin/Shadow will struggle to continue maintaining due to resource regeneration starvation....at least on paper anyway. The differences are so close as not to even bother trying to math out as this is when you get too far into the realm of what-if's, full moon , standing on one leg, facing West Like I originaly said I still stand by my own personal ingame observations as it is all I can do ,as it is all I have personally observed myself. I have yet to come across a Jugg that can hold a candle to my Sintank AoE threat. I can only assume due to the math shown in this thread is that a) the Juggs I have come across have been clueless . b) by some streak of luck I get all my procs , dont suffer from RNG & knockbacks or rotation interupts as much. c) possibly have more effecient playstyle execution. Who knows, Iam just happy playing Sin/Shadow overall which is why my remark was only an personal observation & not a claim.

Im of the same opinion. Although the napkin math may show different ..... from personal experience I have yet to come across a Jugg that can hold anything more than his focus target agaisnt my Darkness Assassin AoE spam. I really do put Assassin AoE in the middle of the three. PT's on the other hand yeah are just AoE machines...

There is a very good thread atm in the tanking pages regarding this amoungst other perceived issues SA's have. By far the best suggestion I have seen is to leave DW alone as it is in regards to numbers max charges & buff duration ....but to let energized shocks add +1 charge back onto DW stack.

Still seeing alot of people mis-quoting how Guard actually works.... The damage transfer only works in PvP ! yes , yes we know the Powertech Guard tooltip is still incorrect