The reason I was opposed earlier on in the thread, was because I think there are too many glaring issues currently with the game which needs addressing first. If they devote time to creating something which doesn't really progress the game when other important thigns need to happen..... I just think the way you put it across, like handing someone their butt for talking rubbish or w/e, sounds like a way to seperate the faction. "oh he beat me in a duel and talked smack, I'm going to mess this wz up to spit them".

As for what I would suggest, well that's hard now. Valor has become so easy to obtain that we already have Valor 100 players, so making rewards based on Valor is impossible now. But the biggest concern, is that casual gamers will simply find themselves unsubbing once they reach 50, if they aren't able to compete or don't have the best gear. The casual gamer's make up a considerable portion of the MMO and without them would make the game difficult to sustain. I would much rather cater to those as my skill level would still hopefully put me out on top. But anything which creates a barrier to me isn't fun, as it means PvP isn't based on skill.

Open World PVP Fails in this game so far, because there is nothing meaningful to work towards. I'm not trying to force "DAOC's" system into this game, but for those who never played it, it may give you an idea what kept some of us playing for so long. In DAOC you had 3 factions == 3 frontiers. In each frontier you had 2 relic keeps, 6 or 7 main keeps, then 4 towers surrounding each keep. Whoever controlled the most towers, gained access to a dungeon called Darkness Falls, which provided a great place to XP, aswell as good "salvage" gear for crafters. Each Tower provided small bonuses, aswell as defensive structures to retreat to if you wanted to capture more towers etc. With Keeps, the outer-edged keeps with all towers would allow you to teleport to that keep from your home realm. Making invading and more RvR action. Each keep would offer small bonuses to xp/cash gain etc. Then, you had the ability to capture enemy relics, each realm had 1 Strength Relic and 1 Power relic. So it was possible for 1 realm to hold all 6 relics, for 20% melee and/or 20% power maximum bonus. This gave players an incredible incentive to defend their home realm, but strangely enough 20% in DAOC really didn't seem to be the be all-end all it is in SWTOR. I guess because of the class dynamics were considerably better than in SWTOR so far. You also gained Realm Ranks (just like Valor), which had 10 realm levels inside. Each level would grant you a Realm Point which you could use to buy certain abilities both passive and active. Things like purge, the more you invested the more frequent you could use it. This would remove all negative effects. Also things like +4/8/12/16 or w/e to your stats. You also had Master Levels, Champion Levels which helped to progress your toon. All of which are gainable through PvP. But with SWTOR there is nothing to do, besides queue for warzones and especially on the lower pop servers, the strong get stronger and the weak get bored trying. I know in a night of PvP I would often get put up against the same group of players game after game. These would generally consist of full BM premade + 4 other random players. Whereas Republic are often varying in gear etc, just to not having the gear to start with really. Also, Ilum was completely Empire controlled from the get-go. It wasn't too bad when you could trade the mech's, but as soon as that changed you either found people kill-trading, or on my server, Empire would just complete hose down the Republic due to having atleast 2x the numbers. Giving them a much better oppurtunity to complete their daily/weeklies. Then that progression became far more apparent in warzones. Now, 1on1, it probably isn't a problem. But you get full teams who focus fire down 1 or 2 players and you get some serious challenges which from what I've seen is impossible to counter. I play with some friends in Vent, I will call for assist on whichever target I see. Primarily Snipers/Gun Slingers then any Healer I see and call for CC's and cycle etc. So we are all hitting the same target which often encourages other people to him them with us. But there is such a difference when we aren't all in full champ gear, that in some of the cases even when we focus fire we aren't able to get through and drop them. Long story short, the strong get stronger and the weak give up, atleast that's what I see on my server. Not feeling competative isn't fun. PvP progression / incentives can come from so many different area's not something which provides such a huge advantage. (From the other post)

I'm not into gear progression. I plan on competing in Ranked Warzones, because that in itself should be reward enough. I can't see how you can implement a ranking system, yet still have a gear discrepancy as the rankings are kind of null and void then. Some/I would argue your only that rank because you had/started with better gear or had more time to play. DAOC had web-based "rankings", where the top 25 per class/per realm/per server were listed, who achieved the best total RP that month/entire game. So, being that #1 spot felt like a reward in itself. Knowing you where the best of that class for that week. I never needed an advantage through gear to want to play and never played games with gear progression. I know I may think completely different to lots of people, but we all have different gaming experience and goals. I like competative gaming, everything being equal mean's you can better yourself MUCH more, rather than kind of yawn whilst rolling that fresh 50. I could have EASILY had full BM Gear on my Sorc by now, but because I wanted A:- To play more htan just huttball and B:- to play on the underdog faction I re-rolled republic with some friends. I hit 50 way before they did so I rolled another alt so I could continue to PvP with them. Then I hit 50 on that alt and saw patch 1.2 notes so I'm rolling yet another toon who is now 40+. I could have stuck to 1 toon and grinded to Valor 60/Full BM gear but I don't play for shiny gear. I play because I like playing with friends/people, I like being competative, I thouroughly enjoy PvPing all things being equal and I like to know that my win, was because I played better, not just because I had better gear.

1: I can't agree more with, due to the quest system though it's hard to group with people if they are above/below your level in quests. 2:- I hate gear progression, or atleast one which provides a considerable boost over other characters. The current gear progression puts me off. I PvP/RvR for fun, incentives should come from other areas, not having the best gear so you gain Doom like god-mode and just roflstomp everyone. 3:- Hopefully this is being addressed and hopefully this is where some RvR/PvP incentives will come from aswell as ways to progress characters hopefully. 4:- Did you ever try DAOC? Forgot to add: being gaming since I was 4, from the ZX Spectrum, C64, all the Amiga's, segas/nes' etc right upto 360/PS3, mainly play COD/BF3 now. Played DAOC for the last 10 years, with Planetside, Matrix Online Beta, WAR, COH and various other's for a shortwhile.

Open World PVP Fails in this game so far, because there is nothing meaningful to work towards. I'm not trying to force "DAOC's" system into this game, but for those who never played it, it may give you an idea what kept some of us playing for so long. In DAOC you had 3 factions == 3 frontiers. In each frontier you had 2 relic keeps, 6 or 7 main keeps, then 4 towers surrounding each keep. Whoever controlled the most towers, gained access to a dungeon called Darkness Falls, which provided a great place to XP, aswell as good "salvage" gear for crafters. Each Tower provided small bonuses, aswell as defensive structures to retreat to if you wanted to capture more towers etc. With Keeps, the outer-edged keeps with all towers would allow you to teleport to that keep from your home realm. Making invading and more RvR action. Each keep would offer small bonuses to xp/cash gain etc. Then, you had the ability to capture enemy relics, each realm had 1 Strength Relic and 1 Power relic. So it was possible for 1 realm to hold all 6 relics, for 20% melee and/or 20% power maximum bonus. This gave players an incredible incentive to defend their home realm, but strangely enough 20% in DAOC really didn't seem to be the be all-end all it is in SWTOR. I guess because of the class dynamics were considerably better than in SWTOR so far. You also gained Realm Ranks (just like Valor), which had 10 realm levels inside. Each level would grant you a Realm Point which you could use to buy certain abilities both passive and active. Things like purge, the more you invested the more frequent you could use it. This would remove all negative effects. Also things like +4/8/12/16 or w/e to your stats. You also had Master Levels, Champion Levels which helped to progress your toon. All of which are gainable through PvP. But with SWTOR there is nothing to do, besides queue for warzones and especially on the lower pop servers, the strong get stronger and the weak get bored trying. I know in a night of PvP I would often get put up against the same group of players game after game. These would generally consist of full BM premade + 4 other random players. Whereas Republic are often varying in gear etc, just to not having the gear to start with really. Also, Ilum was completely Empire controlled from the get-go. It wasn't too bad when you could trade the mech's, but as soon as that changed you either found people kill-trading, or on my server, Empire would just complete hose down the Republic due to having atleast 2x the numbers. Giving them a much better oppurtunity to complete their daily/weeklies. Then that progression became far more apparent in warzones. Now, 1on1, it probably isn't a problem. But you get full teams who focus fire down 1 or 2 players and you get some serious challenges which from what I've seen is impossible to counter. I play with some friends in Vent, I will call for assist on whichever target I see. Primarily Snipers/Gun Slingers then any Healer I see and call for CC's and cycle etc. So we are all hitting the same target which often encourages other people to him them with us. But there is such a difference when we aren't all in full champ gear, that in some of the cases even when we focus fire we aren't able to get through and drop them. Long story short, the strong get stronger and the weak give up, atleast that's what I see on my server. Not feeling competative isn't fun. PvP progression / incentives can come from so many different area's not something which provides such a huge advantage.

This isn't WOW. Sorc's are considered OP because most of their damage ignores armor etc so they can do the same kind of damage to all targets. The hybrid spec was the worst, where chain lightning would give your next cast insta, so you could throw out some pretty quick DPS, with Death Field getting some hefty crits.

Also, is it really "hard work" to spend 5 hours a day where you could even "autorun" in the corner AFK and you'd still get the rewards? Or go to Ilum and Kill Trade and ding valor 60 in a day or 2? How do either of those equate to "hard work". Also, those who played 1 toon since release had a much easier time of it. I remember on my Sorc, being level 50 in the 10/50 bracket and just owning everything because I had PvP gear. I could have done that with my eyes shut. Then there was ilum, travel to ilum spend 5 minutes trading the walkers and you got your dialy/weekly done in minutes. Then they changed Ilum etc and the Imps would just obliterate the Republics 3:1. It wasn't "hard work" on my sorc, it was stupidly easy. But as the game progresses and things change, the gap is just getting MUCH larger between fresh 50's and the long term players.

You never played DAOC, or how about Guild Wars 2 when it's rel'd? All of the "hardcore" PvP'ers love and play these games as it's Skill vs Skill. Not Gear >>> Gear. I played DAOC for 10 years which never had a gear grind because the PvP environment was forever changing, new people, new groups, new combinations etc. It was always fun winning fights you were outnumbered in because you were much better players. Yes, you should get stuff the more you play. But it shouldn't be something which gives you a significant advantage over other people, otherwise you will put "casual" players off PvP and only end up fighting the same 8 people. DAOC for me, had this down to a T as there were so many different styles of play and it was all Open World PvP. You could "solo", small man, group, zerg. People who thought they were "skilled" would always try to find the hardest class, or weakest class to try and play. Sometimes it failed miserably, other times you had the best and most memorable fights you could think of. But in this game, where its 8v8 and gear can play such a huge difference it's hard to feel motivated as a fresh 50 and for many players who don't play 10 hours a day it's simply off putting. Not saying I'm in that bracket, I play a lot at the moment but due to situations found myself doing different things, then with 1.2's release making Champ/Cent gear worthless, I'm holding out until the new patch is in, which mean's spending time on alts and playing with friends.

You realise you can hit 50 within 3 days played? It doesn't cut the smack talk, they'll just whine how you used a rakata medpac they didn't have, or whine that you had better gear. I much rather PvP where I don't know what's coming. I used to do small man in DAOC, where it could be 3/4 of us, vs 1, 3/10 or w/e people we fought against. We wouldn't know where we was going to engage. You say I've been hit over the head with a shovel.... No fun in duels, never have found them fun. It's all setup and will be Sentinels/Marauders vs everyone else post 1.2 etc .

I think I've only done 3 or 4 of the Flashpoints/Operations in this game, so that I could get Biometric Crystal Alloy for my Rakata Medpacs etc. I like to PvP, setup duels aren't "fun". 1 player will have 400 Biochem, the other Cybertech, who has the advantage? 1 Player might have full BM/War Hero gear, the other not. There's no challenge/fun in duel's. I much prefer just fighting enemy players and working as a "team" with my faction than duel players. I agree though, it would give something to do until some kind of Open World PvP area is implemented where we can roam 8v8 or 4v* like the good ol DAOC days.

What's the point? So you can just stroke your epeen?

I find it quite concerning, that they would put Ranked Warzones in, before cross-server queueing. There won't be any ranked warzones, if people aren't there to play them.

What if rewards came from things like cooldown reductions, so your 2min CC breaker could drop down to 1 minute RuT over time? Or you gain 10% more Ammo/Willpower, which make you more sustained over periods of time but not completely roflstomp people with a 15%+ advantage (from fresh 50 to full BM). The possiblity of rewards are far greater than simply having better gear. Just wish people tried DAOC or something, to see what competative PvP was all about. Rather than "that other game", which if I remember right, didn't have any PvP to start with, so you were PvE carebears who just got into PvP?

I play for competition, not to have a gear advantage and an I-Win pass. I don't care if I don't gain uber gear as a reward. I play for the challenge and the fun, spanking people because I spent longer playing isn't fun. I don't consider myself "casual", but more a PvP fan. If this game is always gear based I will lose interest, obviously there will come a point where everyone is equal anyway but I would rather than sooner than later, then have various rewards which didn't make me god-mode. I mean, how long did you play DOOM with God-Mode enabled, before you felt like there wasn't any challenge in playing and got bored? No doubt people will call me a PvP noob or something and that even when gear is equal they will roflstomp me, but if that's the case, why do you complain? Perhaps it's because you really aren't interested in competative PvP and getting spanked

Surely they must of had a contingency plan for when this day would come. The longer they leave it, the more people will unsub. I started on Scepter of Ragnos as Empire, but got bored of the 3:1 Empire/Republic ratio, so found out some friends from DAOC where leveling on The Shadow Runner. Now there is nothing to do at 50, from 1am to 3pm like this guy says. I understand why though, as people work/sleep/go to school. But if cross server queues were added it would give a much needed boost to low pop servers. I was going to roll on The Tomb of Nada or w/e it's called, which actually has a login-queue timer and "Full" server status now. I guess everyone has re-rolled there already. But at the same time, I'm almost Legacy 20 and kind of want to see what 1.2 brings in terms of Legacy Unlocks. The Tomb server had atleast 10x more people, I leveled to around 18 there before changing my mind. In Coruscant there was like 80/90 people, on Shadow Runner there is like 2/5 or so. Something need's to be done but there is literally nothing to do but level alts.

Bring on the PIKL days ! I was on Kay! lol

Was you a scout? I got plenty of grief from those guys! lol.

<-- Former Paladin Team Lead

If I remember right, you need something like 120 bags or something to get full champ gear. I'm spending time leveling alts at the mo, rather than do much 50 pvp as it seems a bit in vein with the changes coming.

Maybe they want to encourage more to roll Republic than Empire, given that 100's of people are going to flock to the FOTM toons now? Then next month, Knight/Guardians will get nerfed so those who re-rolled sent's will switch to other rep toons..... It's all a big conspiracy I tell you!

The only game, where you have an advantage that I can think of is Golf and it's called a Handicap . Having better gear gives them a handicap advantage, which makes them feel they are better players I guess. As others have said, I play for fun, PvP when its competative and skill based is fun. I don't see this game as a chore, which it feels like having to grind for gear. It doesn't even take skill to grind, you could just queue WZ after WZ after WZ and just churn in the warzone comes to get the gear. How anyone can find that fun just completely slips my mind. There are so many better rewards which can come from PvP and being "top ranking" where gear is equal but skill dominates should be what you aim for.

Competative PvP is in itself, a reward. It's far more rewarding knowing I beat a player because of skill, perfect interupts/cominbation of abilities. Not just how long I spend playing this game (I'm on my way to the 4th level 50), so I could easily have 1 toon with full BM gear but to be honest I'd get bored. The PvP in this game isn't balanced, due to gear. So I'm finding myself leveling alts in the hope that the gear disparity goes away, or I pre-order guild wars 2 for weekend beta's whilst I hopefully get the job I've been interviewed for. There are so many alternative/better ways for a character to progress other than gear. In all honesty, it's more like a golfing handicap you get better gear, because you aren't as skilled to make up for it.

Do you not want compatative PvP? Where your gear advantage due to time played, doesn't mean you automatically win?

But being uncompetative due to having considerably lower gear isn't fun. Playing something where skill is involved, knowing you beat that player because your better is what draws me to these games.