With those changes, there is no reason to play a DPS operative. Sins/Shadows will be far superior for everything, including burst, which is the only thing Operatives have, while sins have a lot more they can do and offer. What I find funny is: - People kill Operatives easily when Operatives are out of stealth. - People kill Operatives easily if they flush Operatives out of stealth, which is easy to do. - People kill Operatives easily if Operatives do not get a lot of crits. - People kill Operatives easily if they have their CC-breaker ready. - People kill Operatives easily when those people are shielded, guarded, healed or supported. - People moan if Operatives get away using their only escape ability "Vanish/Cloaking Screen". - People moan if Operatives use every single ability, buff and CD at their disposal, including their only escape ability "Vanish/Cloaking Screen" to secure a single kill, even though most of the time this means the Operative will die right after by someone else. So Operative are good at once thing, burst damage. But people will not be happy until that is taken away, so that they will be able kill Operatives in every single situation. Basically, operatives are not allowed to kill anyone anymore, but should be relegated to be on free-farm status.

You measured it with a stop watch did you?

No comment.

Unfortunately, the issue with population has nothing to do with CC in WZs.

Full resolve mean 99% of the time you cannot get another HARD CC on you, for a while. Soft CC is another issue, i.e. slows, talented snares. Aside from that, it sees to me that 1% of the time the resolve bar does bug out at times, on very rare occasions, but I cannot confirm since things happen so quickly that it could be another soft cc. However, if anything is wrong, it is an issue with the skills themselves causing too little resolve, i.e. you can get knocked back 3 times in a row and the resolve bar does not get full. In Huttball that equals to a match loss. Ofc in my opinion the whole resolve bar is a joke considering the sheer amount of CC out there. Diminishing returns are really needed.

Sorry, try again. You cannot do get any hard CC for a while after the first knockdown: full resolve bar.

I run against Snipers a lot, BM ones. If I get the jump on them and they do not have their cc-break ready, it's 60/40 chance for me to win. Once my the rotation is over, they have enough CC to keep me away long enough to crit me to death from range. But I have to say that out of all the classes, I think snipers are the weakest vs Operatives. Simply because you really on the safety of your range and portable shield, which we can circumvent. If you are a truthful player, you should admit that Shadows/Sins give you just as much trouble. Even though their initial burst is a bit lower, they can get back into your face after your knockback and just pummel you. PS: Mercs/Maras are much harder to kill than snipers. Knockbacks, Slows, CC, DOTs, Defensive utilies, you name it. I die all the time to good maras, even if they start at 40% HP. The same goes for good Troopers/Commandos. After I finish my rotation, they push me back/CC me; if my CC-breaker is on CD, I'm dead. If I break free and get in their face, their rotate with me and many times I die, cause their straight up damage is just that high.

Allow me to repost from my other thread. This assumes the Operative and the target are both of equal rank and gear (Champ/BM). In a hypothetical scenario where the Operative has 100% Crit, AND assuming the target is equally geared/skilled AND they do not have CC-Braker ready AND not defended by a any Shield/Guard: AB/HS = 4k Crit (can goto 5k-6k under specific conditions, with full cons/bio/buff/relic) BS = 3k Crit Shiv = 2.5k Crit Dots = 1.8k Crit TOTAL damage = 11.3k --- At this point the Knockdown is over and target can react. Typical BMs have around 16-18k HP at least, up to 23k HP, and they will still have around at least 7k-8k HP remaining, during which they can use a number of their utilities to defend themselves: Shield, CC, Knockback, Stealth, Vanish, Heal, Force Speed, etc, or simply turn around and kill the Operative in many cases, because the Operative simply cannot go toe-to-toe with any DPS class, [yes even at this HP deficit] and by the time they are out of energy anyway, and will hit back like a wet noodle. Also, it's very easy for all classes to make sure the Operative cannot go into Stealth again. Simply DOT him or apply any periodic effect. And if they do go into Stealth, a simple reactive AOE of any kind will flush them out of Stealth. Not to mention that some classes have anti-Stealth mechanics anyway. This is best case scenario which most often does not occur. If the Operative gets flushed out of Stealth before doing their Alpha Strike, OR if they do not crit, OR if target has CC-Breaker ready, OR is shielded/guarded, OR gets healed; if any of those happen, then this whole scenario goes out the window. One last thing I would like to add is the fact that pretty much everyone already know (and some admitted) that if they get the Operative out of stealth, they can kill him easily. This only proves that the only advantage an Operatives has is his Opener from Stealth. They really do not have anything else to offer aside from that burst from Stealth, and it only happens under certain conditions, that with a level playing field of gear and skill, it is not that much. PS: If you think Operative burst is bad, go up against a well played Pyro PowerTech and see what real inescapable burst really feels like.

From someone who is 29k valor away from rank 60, I feel cheated as well, having grinded my way so far in Warzones. Even the occasional skirmishes in Illum over dailies results in me/our group not even getting credit for most of the kills, many are assuredly unique kills. I will even say that I asked someone from the other faction to test this kill swap with me, as I was curious if it even works. After about 30 minutes of attempts, I had gotten 2 kill credits and like 240 valor lol and then said "frak that", and went back to compete with another 40 roaming people in center over collecting a few boxes. PVB (Players vs Box), the latest BW invention.

Please stop lying or throwing random numbers. Show some screen shots, unless you are somehow still playing the game unpatched to 1.1.

PS: Seriously, before devs start nerfing classes, they need look at the million bugs plaguing the game first. Fix gear stats; atm tank stats mean very little in PVP. fix Resolve and/or give diminishing returns returns on CC. Fix buff stacking (it still gives too much of an advantage, esp for biochem users). There are so many things that need fixing before you roll out a huge blanket nerf like this, which will render a whole tree useless, and deny Operatives any viable DPS tree.

http://imgur.com/a/ntMx5#0 01. Full BM Shadow -- in tank gear, and before you say "but", he had popped a biochem heal that increases his HP temporarily, so he usually runs with 23k HP. 02. Full BM Commando -- no stims. 03. A "naked" troll in one of the games I've had. He ran naked the whole time doing pretty much nothing. 04. My highest crit on that troll (5.2k Crit, he had 7320 HP). PS: I made an exception here and had to include a name for the first time. Sorry. PS: Maybe you did not read well anyway. I said: "Typical BMs have around 16-18k HP at least, up to 23k HP, and they will still have around at least 7k-8k HP remaining [after the full Operative burst rotation]" referring to the 16-18k players obviously. So what is your point? In that case, go back and read again. My post has nothing to do with total damage. I just wanted to show burst potential and highest crits. Some classes can do burst similar to ours, sometimes a bit lower, sometimes higher. Granted some have conditionals or require some build time, but our whole burst is a big can of conditionals and ONLY IFs. Not to mention that the whole Operative tree is intended for nothing else but burst.

4k is 25% of your HP, which means your HP = 16k, which is the lowest HP for a BM geared player. However, 4k + 3k + ? (say dots 1.5k) = 8.5k .. you are still at 47% HP. Please stop throwing wild figures just for the sake of it. I've explained how it works countless times before. But I will say it again: In a hypothetical scenario where the Operative has 100% Crit, AND assuming the target is equally geared/skilled AND they do not have CC-Braker ready AND not defended by a any Shield/Guard: AB/HS = 4k Crit (can goto 5k-6k under specific conditions, with full cons/bio/buff/relic) BS = 3k Crit Shiv = 2.5k Crit Dots = 1.8k Crit TOTAL damage = 11.3k --- At this point the Knockdown is over and target can react. Typical BMs have around 16-18k HP at least, up to 23k HP, and they will still have around at least 7k-8k HP remaining, during which they can use a number of their utilities to defend themselves: Shield, CC, Knockback, Stealth, Vanish, Heal, Force Speed, etc, or simply turn around and kill the Operative in many cases, because the Operative simply cannot go toe-to-toe with any DPS class, and by the time they are out of energy anyway, and will hit back like a wet noodle. Also, it's very easy for all classes to make sure the Operative cannot go into Stealth again. Simply DOT him or apply any periodic effect. And if they do go into Stealth, a simple reactive AOE of any kind will flush them out of Stealth. Not to mention that some classes have anti-Stealth mechanics anyway. This is best case scenario which most often does not occur. If the Operative gets flushed out of Stealth before doing their Alpha Strike, OR if they do not crit, OR if target has CC-Breaker ready, OR is shielded/guarded, OR gets healed; if any of those happen, then this whole scenario goes out the window.

I agree. There are a few bugs that can happen sometimes with Resolve, but one cannot base a major nerf for a whole class/build on a bug that affects everyone! And 100% agree, some DR or another look at Resolve needs to be done.

Please go back and read again, as you apparently did not. This is about burst damage potential, not total damage.

I am not sure if you mean PVP or PVE gear, but with BM gear, everyone is running with that much HP and up to 23k HP, or more depending on buffs/cons. Out of stealth, Operatives cannot go toe-to-toe with any similarly-geared DPS class, or even a well played healer, due to the other classes having superior defensive CDs, and higher sustained DPS (or healers shielding / wearing them down), while having generally less energy problems. Other classes also have access to Water/Biochem. Any similarly-skilled/geared class that catches an Operative out of Stealth (or simply sees them in Stealth or breaks their Stealth, which is easy to do), will very much likely kill them. The only thing that "might" save the Operative is using their Vanish type skill, and many times the attacker is waiting for it and can flush them out before they could move away. The only advantage that Operatives really have is getting the jump on someone from Stealth. And that's the only good window they have to do their job.

The first part is untrue. There is no such thing as stun-lock from the Alpha Strike. There is a 3s HARD CC, much like any other hard CC that pretty much every class has. The only difference is that this hard CC has an animation of knocking someone on the ground, and the fact that it fills the resolve bar completely, so that no more hard CC can be applied to the target anymore for a good while. The second part is what this whole thing is about. The moaners do not want a burst class/tree to burst them down when they get caught with their pants down. But they are ok to demolish that bursty class in every other situation.

I wasn't measuring the effectiveness or total dmg, as there are many factors that can influence that, like if a guy joins the WZ late or something. I just wanted to see the burst potential and I was surprised to see they are capable of critting so high.

Exactly. I elaborated on that in my other post. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=2134139#post2134139

Go read my reply to you. I'd like you to see your response to that.

No, someone just confused I suppose. Ignore that.

At this point, I do not care anymore if it changes anything. I am simply trying to show people that they need to learn to play this game. And that there are so many ways to fight back against Operatives. And while some accounts are true, there are a lot of lies from bad players and false info from under-geared players. Also that there are other classes out there that are very powerful in their own right, and I find it funny that Operatives get singled out. The only way for Operatives to truly kill someone is situational, provided they use every single skill they have, all their Consumables, and all their CDs (extra Vanish) with 2 Alpha Strikes, while the target is not shielded or guarded or getting healed or assisted, and the target has his CC-breaker is on CD, and does not react fast enough to counter the Operative after the 3s knockdown is over. Yet you admit that if you have your CC-breaker ready or you catch them off guard, it is GG for them. But if they catch you off guard, and they blow every single skill they have, it is somehow not ok to kill you. Do you see the hypocrisy?

The problem is I do not see that happening. I've seen this sort of behavior from devs many times in the past. They hastily nerf a class instead of actually sitting down and taking things slow, to make sure the nerf is needed and will not invalidate the class entirely. By the time they come around to actual balance, many people would have given up, left or rerolled, which is just bad for the game as a whole. Why can't they just take a moderate, sensible approach for once, and if they really want to fix the problem, why not address the root causes of it? In a game I played before, there was a lot of QQ about the AOE of one class (H). The devs said they are toning down the AOE of all classes, because it is higher than intended, but they are going to start with that class (H). They destroyed that class' AOE in the following patch. What happens next patch? They buff the AOE of another class, and give an insane AOE to third class.

People are running around with over 16k-23k HP in BM gear. Even assuming an opening crit for 6k, how is that instagib? Even after a "mythical" full rotation of crits during the 3s knockdown: 6k + 3k + 3k = 12k. How is that instagib?

.. they moved my post from PTS to PVP :/